Olber Manifest, and other fables of fantasy

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

A few days after you made your 2011 post on this subject, I posted this:





Very nice work! I did the same thing when Garry originally opened this topic, but never made it to 1945. You're like a bulldog when you are digging for information, and that is often the only way to arrive at the truth. I believe I mentioned that very thing to Garry when I first suggested we invite you into our research.

Coincidence!!!! I am at work, so I don't have Helen's book here, but I assume those names match the "Bible" manifest. Too many coincidences for comfort.

Mike,

Don't know if Bob will know where that manifest came from, or be able to remember the details. Helen had her own sources that she used, besides Bob. He did not agree with everything she put into her books. We are all in that same boat.....so to speak.

Take care,

Joe
_________________________

Guess that "bulldog" statement stuck in my memory cells......what's left of them.

Here is where I posted who the source of the manifest was:

Location: Tempe, Arizona Hi Joe: I was going through the posts under the heading of: "Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest," where I came across a post you made on Sunday, May 8, 2005 at 6:23 am, subject heading; "Das Twist." Here you made the following statement at the end of the post. "I happen to know that Tom Kollenborn keeps tabs on the LDM Forum, and have it on good authority that he was the source for Corbin's manifest." Joe, with all due respect I need to correct you on this statement. Granted, Tom does keep an eye on the Forum, but I know for a fact, absolutely and without question!!!, that Tom did NOT give the Corbin's the ship manifest. I know this for I was visiting the Corbin's with a good friend of mine long before her book was published. It was during this visit that Helen and my friend discussed the subject of the manifest which he had given her along with other papers. I was there and saw the material and heard the discussion. Sorry, but I cannot reveal the name of that person for reasons of confidentiality. It's up to that person to make it know if they want to do so. Respectfully, Gregory E. Davis
____________________________

My source for Tom being the one who gave Helen the Olbers Manifest was a partner of Kraig Roberts. They led me down many a false trail. They played me like a fiddle.

At this time, I have no reason for "confidentiality". Helen's source was Kraig Roberts. My source for that information was Bob Corbin, who was there with Greg and Kraig when he gave it to her. Bob gave me his permission to name him as my source in a telephone conversation this morning.
_________________________________________


Take care,

Joe

 

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[Azquester]

Mike,

I have no posts anymore on that old forum. I deleted them all. What I couldn't get I had Admin delete it for me when I left. From what I can see it looks like Peter was "bill711". You give me way to much credit where it's not due. Just look at the writing style and what the person is saying. I've never been that informed or interested in the Olber's Manifest or I would be posting on here along with you guys. It was obviously someone with inside knowledge of the Lost Dutchman community. From what you say all those people would have nothing to do with me nor me with them. Nice of you to think of me though when searching those old posts. That Bill711 over there tells stories of his family that's not mine nor have I ever told such stories about finding that sort of treasure. Also that person says they're a coin collector which I'm not.

I read the whole 42 pages over there nice work you and Garry did back then real nice.

Bill behaving horribly

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Links removed......Reminder, please NO links to other treasure forums....

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

I know exactly who Bill711 was and he died some time ago. I called his number, after he had gone quite for awhile, and his brother answered the phone and gave me the news.

I surely don't blame Riley for deleting his posts. Most of them were threats and obscenities. Same reason many people delete all of their posts. Either getting rid of any evidence of their foolishness or false stories they were trying to float. As I said, like a cat covering up his crap.

Bill711 was a good guy.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Links removed......Reminder, please NO links to other treasure forums....

TH,

Sorry, I didn't realize I posted a link. I was trying to be careful.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[coazon de oro]

Hey Homar,

Good post and I agree that Ms. Corbin's book is quite excellent (with some exceptions).

I can't prove which boat ole Jake came in but I can prove he didn't come on the one described in the Olbers manifest published by Ms. Corbin. That is certain.

There are many, many instances I could point to just as extraordinary, but here's just one.

Per the dubious 11-17-1839 Olbers Manifest: Ole Jake traveled with one Christian Noltemeyer, a 23 year old painter from Massenkamp, Hanover. Now Mr. Noltemeyer just happened to be standing in line to board ahead of one Mr. Franz Mihlan, a 36 year old locksmith from Neuroden, Schlesien when they were assigned their manifest numbers.

Evidently Mr. Noltemeyer and Mr. Mihlan didn't have a good go it in America and returned to their separate home towns sometime after touring New Orleans. But; we are told they took another try at it.

Per the ISTG ship "Mississippi" manifest arriving New Orlenans 7-16-1846: Mr. Noltemeyer must have gone through some form of reincarnation during that 7 year span because we see him again leaving Massenkamp, Hanover, this time at the tender age of 2, again boarding just ahead of Mr. Franz Mihlan, now age 37 and still a locksmith, and arriving New Orleans July 16, 1846. Some serious time warp going on with those two gentlemen.

The odds of that happening are about 1000 gazillion to one. Now add about 18 more people (we know of) and have confirmed making similar trips in similar circumstances all ending up on Jake's fateful ship and yeah; The November 17, 1839 Olbers just might be ligit. assuming it had a gale force tail wind both legs of its journey. Naw, aint happening.http://tnet.forumfoundry.com/forums/images/smilies/laughing7.gif

Howdy Old,

Thanks for the kind words, I know that I may not be the best at putting thoughts to words. I however never claimed the Olbers Manifest to be legit. I said Waltz could have very well come here on the Olbers, I did not mention that particular trip, just the boat. Since ISTG says that some lists have been destroyed, the Olbers has to be included along with all other possibilities.

Oroblanco,

I agree that there was not much time to examine the source materials before the book got published, but that holds true for the source also, not just for Helen. I have nothing but praise for her work, and am truly sorry her book was taken off the shelves. Maybe an edited version could be reprinted?

Joe, and Dave, I know who Mr. Bob Corbin is, and know that he has sense enough to know that I have never insulted him in any way. I have never claimed to be smarter than anyone, and am courteous with my responses. If you insist on twisting my posts, and throwing insults, I bow out before it rubs on me.

Homar

 

[Oroblanco]

Oroblanco,

I agree that there was not much time to examine the source materials before the book got published, but that holds true for the source also, not just for Helen. I have nothing but praise for her work, and am truly sorry her book was taken off the shelves. Maybe an edited version could be reprinted?


Homar

We have no way of knowing how much time was involved before Mr Roberts presented the documents to Helen, unless he were to answer that question himself. That would be presuming that he obtained them from someone else. Agree that an edited version would be a great idea, but since Helen passed away, it is extremely unlikely to ever happen.

 

[Hal Croves]

i guess homar thinks he's smarter than bob corbin..now lets think about that for a minute..corbin was the arizona state attorney general and homar is who.....?

Homar is not you Dave and that should be enough for anyone.

 

[cactusjumper]

Howdy Old,

Thanks for the kind words, I know that I may not be the best at putting thoughts to words. I however never claimed the Olbers Manifest to be legit. I said Waltz could have very well come here on the Olbers, I did not mention that particular trip, just the boat. Since ISTG says that some lists have been destroyed, the Olbers has to be included along with all other possibilities.

Oroblanco,

I agree that there was not much time to examine the source materials before the book got published, but that holds true for the source also, not just for Helen. I have nothing but praise for her work, and am truly sorry her book was taken off the shelves. Maybe an edited version could be reprinted?

Joe, and Dave, I know who Mr. Bob Corbin is, and know that he has sense enough to know that I have never insulted him in any way. I have never claimed to be smarter than anyone, and am courteous with my responses. If you insist on twisting my posts, and throwing insults, I bow out before it rubs on me.

Homar

Homar,

IMHO, the below quote is insulting:

"In my opinion they both believed as did her source, that it was copied from an original document. It was the "research team" that got the best of Mr. Corbin, making him pull the book off the shelves without definite proof. If anyone can prove that Jacob Waltz came in a different boat, Helen's book is beyond a reasonable doubt, one of the best books out there."

Bob checked the facts I presented to him and received his own proof. He has way more ability at examining evidence than we did, although we did a damn fine job. He also has the contacts to dig even deeper, which he did. The Olbers Manifest was not the reason Bob removed the book from sale.

You are the one that someone is getting "the best of". The problem is, that you don't know the rest of the story. If you did, I doubt you would be sticking up for him. Then again.......

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Hal Croves]

Homar,

IMHO, the below quote is insulting:

"In my opinion they both believed as did her source, that it was copied from an original document. It was the "research team" that got the best of Mr. Corbin, making him pull the book off the shelves without definite proof. If anyone can prove that Jacob Waltz came in a different boat, Helen's book is beyond a reasonable doubt, one of the best books out there."

Bob checked the facts I presented to him and received his own proof. He has way more ability at examining evidence than we did, although we did a damn fine job. He also has the contacts to dig even deeper, which he did. The Olbers Manifest was not the reason Bob removed the book from sale.

You are the one that someone is getting "the best of". The problem is, that you don't know the rest of the story. If you did, I doubt you would be sticking up for him. Then again.......

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Why blame Matthew for Helen's use of bogus information?
Do you know if he was paid?
Bob and Helen had expertise, ability, and "contacts to dig deeper".
More so than Matthew I am guessing.
And you do point to "shortcuts" being taken.

Seems that if you are going to point fingers (and I don't suggest it), there were plenty of mistakes made.

 

[cactusjumper]

Homer & Hal,

I wrote this back in 2011:

"Chris,

There have been a few of us here, over the last few years, who have tried to bring some honest facts into the legends that surround the Superstition Mountains. I don't think any of us wanted to disprove the various stories that have been circulated since the death of Jacob Waltz, rather we wanted to find out if there were any provable facts that supported them.

I neither expected nor wanted some of the facts we found to turn out to be true. There is little doubt that some people will consider what we have done to be harmful to the LDM legend. Those who took some of these outright lies and printed them in their books are the folks who were really harmed.

Each of us agonized over making some of these truths public, but in the end we did the right thing.

The stories that are left are more than enough."
______________________________________

Nothing has changed.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Azquester]

Sorry, That wasn't the reason Joe and you know it. There was however a mass deletion of many posters at the time exiting that forum because of politics. A lot of them very good people. They weren't covering anything and neither was I. Just didn't want to be part of it. You'd like to think that about many that deleted their posts and blame them all as being less than stellar or underhanded but that simply wasn't the case. Mods delete your posts all the time. They're just doing a service for you that many others do on their own. Why would a Mod delete your posts? look in a mirror.

Now please stop with the blame game.

Mike,

I know exactly who Bill711 was and he died some time ago. I called his number, after he had gone quite for awhile, and his brother answered the phone and gave me the news.

I surely don't blame Riley for deleting his posts. Most of them were threats and obscenities. Same reason many people delete all of their posts. Either getting rid of any evidence of their foolishness or false stories they were trying to float. As I said, like a cat covering up his crap.

Bill711 was a good guy.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Azquester]

Hal, Many, and I'm only guessing, either fabricate false leads thinking they're throwing people off the trail or just do it for a joke on the person they involve. Jealous of others searching for the same thing they themselves can't find they do things that no one normal would do. The Lost Dutchman and other Treasures have a way of bringing out traits of abnormalities when people feel threatened or intimidated by other fellow hunters of the same legend. The Dutchman seems to be the main one as so many think they've solved it and would do anything to keep people away. We see it all the time on here people claiming they've found it and holding back information for a tease against others they think may know something probably as a deterrent.

If Matt was given the forged Olber's Manuscript by someone else that was secretly his rival and he didn't know it he would unknowingly pass that information on to Helen. I think this happens all the time in the Dutchman Community. Authors sometimes haven't the time or resources to chase down the history and validity of every document so they rely on many sources that may be questionable.

Why blame Matthew for Helen's use of bogus information?
Do you know if he was paid?
Bob and Helen had expertise, ability, and "contacts to dig deeper".
More so than Matthew I am guessing.
And you do point to "shortcuts" being taken.

Seems that if you are going to point fingers (and I don't suggest it), there were plenty of mistakes made.

 

[Hal Croves]

Homer & Hal,

I wrote this back in 2011:

"Chris,

There have been a few of us here, over the last few years, who have tried to bring some honest facts into the legends that surround the Superstition Mountains. I don't think any of us wanted to disprove the various stories that have been circulated since the death of Jacob Waltz, rather we wanted to find out if there were any provable facts that supported them.

I neither expected nor wanted some of the facts we found to turn out to be true. There is little doubt that some people will consider what we have done to be harmful to the LDM legend. Those who took some of these outright lies and printed them in their books are the folks who were really harmed.

Each of us agonized over making some of these truths public, but in the end we did the right thing.

The stories that are left are more than enough."
______________________________________

Nothing has changed.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

I think that what you guys did was absolutely necessary and without question, the correct thing to do.
My concern is the blame that followed.
It seems unbalanced.

A lesson learned. Fact check everything... which you have encouraged from the start.

 

[cactusjumper]

I think that what you guys did was absolutely necessary and without question, the correct thing to do.
My concern is the blame that followed.
It seems unbalanced.

A lesson learned. Fact check everything... which you have encouraged from the start.

Hal,

I would suggest you take your own advise.

As I said, the Olbers Manifest was not what any of us totally blamed on the source. As you have mentioned, that could have gone either way. Rather it was the years of personal lies to some of us directly. Bob and Helen were only part of the deception. Over the years, there were hundreds of such lies to each of us and to the community at large.

I considered the man a good friend. For that, they were laughing at me, which Peter once told me. I had no idea what he was talking about at that time.

If you have followed us at all, over the years, you would know that we do "Fact check everything". The entire story, which you obviously don't have a clue of, is really sad. As it started unraveling, I was not so much angry as saddened. I lost a friend, which in truth I never really had.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

I would suggest you take your own advise.

As I said, the Olbers Manifest was not what any of us totally blamed on the source. As you have mentioned, that could have gone either way. Rather it was the years of personal lies to some of us directly. Bob and Helen were only part of the deception. Over the years, there were hundreds of such lies to each of us and to the community at large.

I considered the man a good friend. For that, they were laughing at me, which Peter once told me. I had no idea what he was talking about at that time.

If you have followed us at all, over the years, you would know that we do "Fact check everything". The entire story, which you obviously don't have a clue of, is really sad. As it started unraveling, I was not so much angry as saddened. I lost a friend, which in truth I never really had.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Not sure that I am interested in the "entire story" yet.
My questions are about the shortcuts you describe and how forgeries passed thru experienced hands unnoticed.
Its really not about blame.
I just want to know how it happened.
To understand that, we need to ask questions.

Like, is that the original forged transcription in Helen's book?
If so, it is not a very compelling attempt at a forgery.

Compare that to the experience of all those involved and we are left with a huge disconnect.

I am going to ask Matthew many things tonight in an email.
Before I do, do you know if he was compensated for the information in Helen's book?
Simple question.

 

[cactusjumper]

Not sure that I am interested in the "entire story" yet.
My questions are about the shortcuts you describe and how forgeries passed thru experienced hands unnoticed.
Its really not about blame.
I just want to know how it happened.
To understand that, we need to ask questions.

Like, is that the original forged transcription in Helen's book?
If so, it is not a very compelling attempt at a forgery.

Compare that to the experience of all those involved and we are left with a huge disconnect.

I am going to ask Matthew many things tonight in an email.
Before I do, do you know if he was compensated for the information in Helen's book?
Simple question.

Hal,

You should absolutely do that. I have been there and done that. Here is where this little nightmare started for me:
_________________________________
Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:47 am Hello Roger:

Well, I’m not even sure where to start. The family historian? Gideon? George Riley? The family farm? Matthew Robert’s relationship to the family? Family familiarity with Dick Holmes? With Jacob Waltz? The discovery of the richest gold mine in California, only to walk away from it for a mere pittance?

Where did any of this information come from? Was it the same source that placed Jacob Waltz in the back of Julia’s store? That had Christina Morrell interviewing Rhiney in 1933?

Who was Bertie Roberts? Did she even exist? Glover didn’t seem to think so. Corbin did.

Who was Margaret Roberts? Did she even exist? Corbin didn’t seem to think so. Glover did.

Who was the aunt that passed all this information along? Did she even exist? If so, did the information get modified after it left her hands?

How does Gideon O. Roberds (not Roberts) fit into all of this? He owned a lot just one block south and one block west of Julia’s in 1891 (his sister owned it for about 8 years before that). He was from Trinidad, in Las Animas County, Colorado, but spent every winter in Phoenix. He was a miner by trade. Dick Holmes’ lot was just south of his, but at a different time. Is it possible that Gideon O. Roberds and Gideon O. Roberts histories are getting confused, either mistakenly or intentionally? (For comparison, see Glover, page 199)

(BTW, Gideon Roberds lived until 1903).

Did Gideon Roberts even exist? If so, did he die in 1891? Who buried Gideon Roberts? Where was he buried? Where did the reference to the Pioneer Cemetery in Phoenix come from? When did that reference first come to light?

I guess my original question was one of frustration. I really didn’t expect any answers as there are none apparent. Even the questions above have no ready answers. It’s just another path of research that leaves me wondering whether there is any merit to some of the LDM backstory, and whether the Roberts family has been woven into the story through someone’s imagination.

Oh well.

Larry
_________________________________________________________

This was my eventual reply:
_______________________

Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:46 pm Larry,

I have no idea where you are going with this topic, but can assure you that Sarah (Bertie) Roberts did exist. There are plenty of documents to back up that statement, some of which I have copies of.

I would suggest you ask Dr. Glover why he used Margaret, instead of Sarah. I have, and received a reasonable answer. I will leave it to Thomas to speak for himself.

Azmula has written: "There is one individual who has all the Roberts Family History and can respond accurately."

I would be very surprised to see that "individual" respond to your attack.

If you have questions, why not email him directly rather than on a public forum? Trying to tie the entire Roberts family history into the Alkire story is, IMHO, short sighted and totally unfair.

While I could provide the documentation you seek, I will leave that to others. This will be my only post on this topic.

Joe Ribaudo
_____________________________________________________

It was, not my final post:
_____________________________________________________

Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:00 pm Larry.

"This will be my only post on this topic."

It would seem that another post is in order. That being the case, I would like to publicly apologize to you.

Kraig,

When you read this, as I know you will, please give me a call or send me an email. I need to talk to you.

Take care,

Joe
_______________________________________________

As you can see, a bit of time went by between those two posts. I did not come to that apology easily. A number of similar requests to Kraig have gone unanswered over the ensuing...........years. You will probably get the answers you are expecting to get.

Obviously I did not have the documentation I thought I had.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

"I am going to ask Matthew many things tonight in an email.
Before I do, do you know if he was compensated for the information in Helen's book?
Simple question."

Of course I know the answer to your "Simple question". No he did not get "compensated" with cash. On the other hand, I doubt he ever asked for anything, other then to get his information written in a book by Helen Corbin. You might say he was building his reputation, an ongoing project for a number of years, with the help of others.

Do you have Jane Eppinga's "Apache Junction And The Superstition Mountains"? Why don't you ask him about the picture and write up on page 38, "Courtesy of Greg Davis." Is the story written there about William E. Roberts, a man called Edwards and himself roaming the mountains as a young man true? If so, just how old was he. That's an important question, as the man named Edwards was a source for part of the massacre legend.

Lots of questions to ask if you know all that he was the source for, and all the deleted posts he has made disappear over the years. Do you actually know that history? While Greg Davis was the source for many of the Aurum posts, that many of us still have, he will not claim authorship of them. Aurum will say that someone else wrote or changed them. He will probably make the same claim for all of the letters and emails I have from him.

I have already asked all of the questions you, or someone else, may ask you to ask. I already have the answers. If you actually knew what to ask, you would have all the answers.

If you believe I/we have done a shoddy job of research, or had an ulterior motive to do harm to my "friend", ask people like Bob Corbin, Tom Kollenborn, Thomas Glover, Roy and Beth Decker who have all spent nights in our home. Even Greg Davis has been here. That's the short list of people who have accepted our hospitality and have some idea of my character and abilities.

Good luck in your own research. Mine is, pretty much, done.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[gollum]

I hadn't looked into the whole Gideon Roberts thing yet, so after reading Joe's Post, I decided to have a look.

I searched Ancestry.com for Gideon Roberts (not Roberds) that lived in Phoenix, Az. The reason nobody could find the guy is because his name is "John Gideon Roberts"







View attachment John G Roberts Obit.pdf

John Gideon Roberts (1874 - 1954)

Hey Joe,

Is that the guy you are looking for?

Mike

PS

Is one of these our Bertie Roberts?

 

[cactusjumper]

I hadn't looked into the whole Gideon Roberts thing yet, so after reading Joe's Post, I decided to have a look.

I searched Ancestry.com for Gideon Roberts (not Roberds) that lived in Phoenix, Az. The reason nobody could find the guy is because his name is "John Gideon Roberts"

View attachment 1247494

View attachment 1247495

View attachment 1247497

View attachment 1247498 View attachment 1247499

John Gideon Roberts (1874 - 1954)

Hey Joe,

Is that the guy you are looking for?

Mike

PS

Is one of these our Bertie Roberts?

View attachment 1247507

Mike,

If you're interested in the truth of the matter, I would suggest you start with the birth of Matthew Kraig Roberts and trace his ancestry back to see if you can find a connection to a Gideon, by any name. If you would like, I could save you some time there.

Good luck,

Joe