Olber Manifest, and other fables of fantasy

[Azquester]

Loke, The signatures don't match on this document. Probably an Attorney filled it out. Neither document looks like German hand writing. It seems Mr Waltz will remain a ghost for now. We may never know 100% it truly was him. I don't see why this matters that much just a good topic for discussion it leads no where except maybe proof he did exist which we already have a grave. Did Julia have the undertaker do a death photo of Mr Waltz? I don't think that has been explored I may be wrong. If finding his records of arrival leads to a family member that has knowledge of his mine through letters he sent too Prussia or samples of the ore he sent back home that would be something.. But UPS and Fed Ex back then was still using Ponies for curbside deliveries and it would take months for a small over seas package to make it there for a signature. Now that's where you could look for his signature on the shipping label! I wonder where he shipped it from?

Mike, I have some problems with _most_ signatures of ole Jacob - they are more consistent with _American_ handwriting from that era than German - check out an example ...
https://www.google.com/search?q=19t...=X&ved=0ahUKEwif6225eTJAhVHLyYKHdI0DkUQsAQIIg

 

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[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

CoN,

Since the mine can't be legally worked, what would you consider proof?


Thanks,

Joe Ribaudo

How many terabytes would you like to exclude all possibilities? Up to me to prove/disprove a negative? Let the proof be proffered for scrutiny by all.

 

[deducer]

In defense of the new blood looking for information here, they're facing a daunting task. More than 40,000 posts in the LDM category alone would take much more than "just a little time" - not to mention the major cross-pollination into other large categories. There seem to be factors that continue to perpetuate the problem. For one, the same material is posted over and over and over in different threads, often by the same players. I have a hard enough time trying to run down my own old posts, let alone the whole nine yards. Too bad there isn't a better way to more quickly isolate material - the search engine helps only a little for me. Another thing that is discouraging to me when trying to follow threads: it's too bad so many posters use this forum as a social media site. If folks need a coffee klatch in their lives - go to Facebook.

Yet it was well worth it for me. I have learned..... much.

 

[sdcfia]

Yet it was well worth it for me. I have learned..... much.

You were highly motivated - the commitment was easy. Most are only curious and not willing to invest the time.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Joe,

It doesn't matter what he would consider proof. His attitude makes it very easy to put him BACK on ignore.

ignore all you want (best thing to ever happen to anyone) - but if attitude is the issue perhaps you need to join a self help group rather than a forum.

CN,

Its very easy to sit in your Luxontronic Blammo 6000 Comfy Chair, and tell everybody that they have to prove something to you.

Nobody has to prove anything to anyone, just don't expect everyone to slurp toilet water.

Who are you to ask that of anybody? Not one person here has any sort of obligation to prove ANYTHING to you. Maybe if you didn't act like a complete douche, then we may be more inclined to share things with you. Why is it that you never add anything to any conversation you become a part of? All you do is gainsay everybody here, and tell us all we need to prove something to you.

see above

What I recommend is for you to get off your a$$, and first do some real research. Find an archive. Find ANYTHING FOR YOURSELF! Once you find something on your own rather than berating others for not doing all your work for you, you might actually start enjoying yourself, and become a meaningful part of a discussion, rather than a ................ well, you know what you are!

Mike

Have a nice day sir!

 

[gollum]

Mike, I have some problems with _most_ signatures of ole Jacob - they are more consistent with _American_ handwriting from that era than German - check out an example ...
https://www.google.com/search?q=19t...=X&ved=0ahUKEwif6225eTJAhVHLyYKHdI0DkUQsAQIIg

The earliest examples we have of our Jacob Waltz is from 1848. That means he had likely been in the US for about nine years (possibly five if my theory is correct). Plenty of time to acclimatize. Also could account for the change in signature styles. As he developed Western Style writing skills, his signature would have changed. My own signature has changed significantly over the years, as has my handwriting.

I still think the Natchez, MS Waltz is our guy. The one that came through Philadelphia stayed in Pa the rest of his life. The one from New York, wound up in Missouri. I believe that our Waltz from Natchez, Mississippi came to New Orleans on the Ship Dublin in 1843. We know the whole Olbers and New Orleans in 1839 is wrong, so that leaves (to me) the not well known Dublin in New Orleans in 1848. Can anybody document Waltz any time between 1843 and 1848?

Mike

 

[deducer]

You were highly motivated - the commitment was easy. Most are only curious and not willing to invest the time.

Just a little over two years ago (note my join date), I saw an episode of "Mysteries at the Museum" with Don Wildman, a program I watch from time to time, and they had an episode on the Stone Maps:

Riches Etched in Stone VIDEO : Mysteries at the Museum : TravelChannel.com

And after seeing it, I saw the potential for a great story and went after it with a laser focus. I had a few objectives: to find out what these stones represented, who carved them, and to see what is at the end of the path.

 

[Loke]

The earliest examples we have of our Jacob Waltz is from 1848. That means he had likely been in the US for about nine years (possibly five if my theory is correct). Plenty of time to acclimatize. Also could account for the change in signature styles. As he developed Western Style writing skills, his signature would have changed. My own signature has changed significantly over the years, as has my handwriting.
Mike

I beg to disagree - the shaping of letters does not change over the years. Heck, I'm a good enough example myself - after 20 years in the US, I could still go back 50 years and the basics haven't changed. Has my signature/handwriting changed? - most decidedly yes - especially the slant - from left to straight to right - but ... the basic shape of the letters have not changed in 50 years ... Has my stay in the US changed my handwriting as such? - not one iota! - and I'm still riding the slant-wagon, can't ever seem to make up my mind ...

Oh and by-the-way - I do believe there was a JW and that he had either a cache and/or a mine in the Superstitions - but ... I am troubled by most 'evidence' based on his signature.

 

[cw0909]

gollum/mike, this info dosent show jacob waltz on the index
in natchez mississippi

Names WPA project 1942
Names source 1942 doc.link
Index to Naturalization & Declaration Records Adams County, MS 1798-1906
http://Adams County, MS Genealogical & Historical Research - Naturalizations

the imgs

 

[Azquester]

Has anybody read this book. It was published in 1884.

Waltz, Levi.
Waltz family history and genealogical record, in family classification, comprising upward of 3000 names of lineal descendants of Frederick Reinhart Waltz. Dayton, Ohio: Reformed Publishing Company, Printer, 1884. Book, xvi, (17)-128 pages, 23 cm. Frederick Reinhart Waltz flourished, 1731. ?/?

 

[sdcfia]

The earliest examples we have of our Jacob Waltz is from 1848. That means he had likely been in the US for about nine years (possibly five if my theory is correct). Plenty of time to acclimatize. Also could account for the change in signature styles. As he developed Western Style writing skills, his signature would have changed. My own signature has changed significantly over the years, as has my handwriting.

I still think the Natchez, MS Waltz is our guy. The one that came through Philadelphia stayed in Pa the rest of his life. The one from New York, wound up in Missouri. I believe that our Waltz from Natchez, Mississippi came to New Orleans on the Ship Dublin in 1843. We know the whole Olbers and New Orleans in 1839 is wrong, so that leaves (to me) the not well known Dublin in New Orleans in 1848. Can anybody document Waltz any time between 1843 and 1848?

Mike

Our current generation's handwriting has deteriorated from our earlier lives for sure - for several reasons, but mostly because we've used it less and less as we've aged. My formerly perfectly legible "young man signature" is now pretty much a scrawl that even I can't decipher. The same goes for many of us, but this was not the case before the electronic age. Despite this, we are still strongly tied to the writing style we first were taught. If you sit down and hand-pen a letter, being careful to use your "best handwriting" (which probably means "slower"), you'll probably see results that are much closer to what your writing looked like when you were younger than your "today style" (faster, seldom-used). I think that, in general, you won't find previous generations' penmanship degraded much as they aged because they never got so much "out of practice" as we have.

I guess it would be interesting to compare Waltz's signatures from public documents in the US (deeds, mining locations, bills of sale, voter rolls, etc) to those from his time in Germany. Not that it would matter much - some old miner known as Waltz was real enough in Phoenix and his presence and death there started an unresolved lost mine rumor. His signature analysis would be just another adventure into the realm of minutia. I guess when we can't answer the "big question", we tend to focus on the irrelevant stuff.

 

[Oroblanco]

Not to derail this issue of the Jacob Waltz signatures, considering that at least some of the documents thought to be from "our" Jacob Waltz are probably NOT our Waltz, like that naturalization doc that lists Wurtemburg as his native land when he told the census taker it was Prussia, but we do not know exactly when or where Waltz learned to write. It is entirely possible that he came to America illiterate, unable to write his own name, and learned to write while here in the US so would have handwriting more like American than Prussian.

Please do continue:

 

[gollum]

Has anybody read this book. It was published in 1884.

I haven't, but I know someone that has it.

Mike

 

[Loke]

Not to derail this issue of the Jacob Waltz signatures, considering that at least some of the documents thought to be from "our" Jacob Waltz are probably NOT our Waltz, like that naturalization doc that lists Wurtemburg as his native land when he told the census taker it was Prussia, but we do not know exactly when or where Waltz learned to write. It is entirely possible that he came to America illiterate, unable to write his own name, and learned to write while here in the US so would have handwriting more like American than Prussian.

Please do continue:

Hmmm - I was under the impression that he was an 'educated' man ... but, in all honesty, that may well have been one of the 'other' JW's - difficult to know as long as we don't really know when/how he came - 'he' being the JW _we_ are interested in ... *sigh* tis a mystery ...

 

[cactusjumper]

I haven't, but I know someone that has it.

Mike

Mike,

The book was published in 1884, and has been reprinted many, many times. Lots of folks have it. Another one of those things that won't get anyone closer to the LDM.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

As for the phony Olber's Manifest, Paul put the final nail in the coffin on that fabrication years ago. It should be a long dead subject.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Azquester]

Prussia was a model of education for all society. Our own education system was eventually fashioned after the German system after the Immigrants came here and set up their own system. Back then it was mandatory education in southern Prussia. For the poorest of people it was free. I honestly think that you had to show some sort of education to get into the USA unlike today.

I thought of this too so I did some research about his education or lack of.

Hmmm - I was under the impression that he was an 'educated' man ... but, in all honesty, that may well have been one of the 'other' JW's - difficult to know as long as we don't really know when/how he came - 'he' being the JW _we_ are interested in ... *sigh* tis a mystery ...

 

[Hal Croves]

As for the phony Olber's Manifest, Paul put the final nail in the coffin on that fabrication years ago. It should be a long dead subject.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

If anything, that document will only become more important to those interested in Helen's book.
It has the potential to prove or disprove intentional deception, an unfortunate misunderstanding, or, a simple lack of experience.

Could be a combo of all three or something we can't possibly understand yet.
The point is, that document made it into the book when it should not have .
It ultimately confused people and caused several people grief.

How that happened is a fantastic story that will get twisted and told a dozen times before we (the public) learn the truth.
When we learn the truth, hopefully, there is an equally fantastic lesson to be learned.

 

[cactusjumper]

If anything, that document will only become more important to those interested in Helen's book.
It has the potential to prove or disprove intentional deception, an unfortunate misunderstanding, or, a simple lack of experience.

Could be a combo of all three or something we can't possibly understand yet.
The point is, that document made it into the book when it should not have .
It ultimately confused people and caused several people grief.

How that happened is a fantastic story that will get twisted and told a dozen times before we (the public) learn the truth.
When we learn the truth, hopefully, there is an equally fantastic lesson to be learned.

Hal,

Most of us know exactly who twisted the truth, and who is twisting it today. By all means continue your quest to find the truth. If you actually know "How that happened", why not tell the story here and now? You say what "happened is a fantastic story". This is your chance to bring that story into the light of day. Let's see it so we can all decide the truth for ourselves.

Right now, you are much like those who pop up, seemingly daily, with new claims of finding the LDM. Give us the evidence. What positive thing can come from having the story told and "twisted a dozen times before we (the public) learn the truth."?

I wish you luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[azdave35]

Hal,

Most of us know exactly who twisted the truth, and who is twisting it today. By all means continue your quest to find the truth. If you actually know "How that happened", why not tell the story here and now? You say what "happened is a fantastic story". This is your chance to bring that story into the light of day. Let's see it so we can all decide the truth for ourselves.

Right now, you are much like those who pop up, seemingly daily, with new claims of finding the LDM. Give us the evidence. What positive thing can come from having the story told and "twisted a dozen times before we (the public) learn the truth."?

I wish you luck,

Joe Ribaudo

joe...i would say hal is more like a pesky little fly ..and as long as he isn't pestering you too bad ..leave him alone....but occasionally he gets too close and must be swatted