Olber Manifest, and other fables of fantasy

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Hal,

I would suggest you take your own advise.

As I said, the Olbers Manifest was not what any of us totally blamed on the source. As you have mentioned, that could have gone either way. Rather it was the years of personal lies to some of us directly. Bob and Helen were only part of the deception. Over the years, there were hundreds of such lies to each of us and to the community at large.

I considered the man a good friend. For that, they were laughing at me, which Peter once told me. I had no idea what he was talking about at that time.

If you have followed us at all, over the years, you would know that we do "Fact check everything". The entire story, which you obviously don't have a clue of, is really sad. As it started unraveling, I was not so much angry as saddened. I lost a friend, which in truth I never really had.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Which leaves us sitting with the 800 pound gorilla over in the well lit corner wearing a pink polka dotted yellow tutu which no one seems to have noticed ...

What if any proven/known/verified facts do we have?

This can't be a very long list, but it would make the only sensible starting point instead of having everyone chase around all the hype conjecture and obfuscation that overwhelms what might not even exist in fact.

Thank you in advance

 

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[Oroblanco]

Which leaves us sitting with the 800 pound gorilla over in the well lit corner wearing a pink polka dotted yellow tutu which no one seems to have noticed ...

What if any proven/known/verified facts do we have?

This can't be a very long list, but it would make the only sensible starting point instead of having everyone chase around all the hype conjecture and obfuscation that overwhelms what might not even exist in fact.

Thank you in advance

That would rightfully belong in a separate thread, as this one is focused on the Olbers manifest and other fables of fantasy which have been blended into the LDM story.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

That would rightfully belong in a separate thread, as this one is focused on the Olbers manifest and other fables of fantasy which have been blended into the LDM story.

When then, by all means, post it a separate thread.

 

[Oroblanco]

When then, by all means, post it a separate thread.

Been there, done that, some time ago. I already have enough facts, and much has been discussed some time ago. Feel free to catch up by reading some of the older discussions, or start your own new thread if the questions remain in your mind.

Merry Christmas to everyone reading this,
Oroblanco

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

= ya got nuffin.

 

[Oroblanco]

= ya got nuffin.

How little you know. Let's stop derailing this topic, shall we?

 

[deducer]

Been there, done that, some time ago. I already have enough facts, and much has been discussed some time ago. Feel free to catch up by reading some of the older discussions, or start your own new thread if the questions remain in your mind.

Merry Christmas to everyone reading this,
Oroblanco

If posters devoted just a little time reading threads in the archive, they'd be surprised at how often a lot of the discussions essentially repeats themselves.

 

[sdcfia]

If posters devoted just a little time reading threads in the archive, they'd be surprised at how often a lot of the discussions essentially repeats themselves.

In defense of the new blood looking for information here, they're facing a daunting task. More than 40,000 posts in the LDM category alone would take much more than "just a little time" - not to mention the major cross-pollination into other large categories. There seem to be factors that continue to perpetuate the problem. For one, the same material is posted over and over and over in different threads, often by the same players. I have a hard enough time trying to run down my own old posts, let alone the whole nine yards. Too bad there isn't a better way to more quickly isolate material - the search engine helps only a little for me. Another thing that is discouraging to me when trying to follow threads: it's too bad so many posters use this forum as a social media site. If folks need a coffee klatch in their lives - go to Facebook.

 

[Old]

I already spent WAY too much time and bloodshot eyes searching the National Archives microfilm only to find my quest was based on a pile of hooey. Fool me once, shame on you......fool me twice........not going to happen.

I said before, those that want to continue to chase nuggets of information from this source, be my guest, happy hunting and stock up on Visine. You may find some instances of truth. But its so intertwined with hooey its not worth sorting out. To me, when one, actually more than one, document fails, they all fail. Its tarnished material.

Makes for interesting historical fiction reading but does not advance, in fact hinders, the search. It clouds the issue. Like telling the jury to disregard what they just heard. That's almost impossible because it creeps into the evaluation of the total picture. Even if we consciously try to ignore it.

I am not making any judgment calls on how the data came to be. Source could have manufactured it or could be just as duped as we were initially. Its the after actions that concern me. Nothing wrong with an honest mistake. What's wrong is when its perpetuated when its found to be false.

I leave the door open for the source to redeem himself by classifying the material as to probability of being factual. A list of documents categorized as known to be true, assumed to be true, doubtfully true and known to be false would be helpful. Would go a long way to restoring credibility.

 

[Hal Croves]

I already spent WAY too much time and bloodshot eyes searching the National Archives microfilm only to find my quest was based on a pile of hooey. Fool me once, shame on you......fool me twice........not going to happen.

I said before, those that want to continue to chase nuggets of information from this source, be my guest, happy hunting and stock up on Visine. You may find some instances of truth. But its so intertwined with hooey its not worth sorting out. To me, when one, actually more than one, document fails, they all fail. Its tarnished material.

Makes for interesting historical fiction reading but does not advance, in fact hinders, the search. It clouds the issue. Like telling the jury to disregard what they just heard. That's almost impossible because it creeps into the evaluation of the total picture. Even if we consciously try to ignore it.

I am not making any judgment calls on how the data came to be. Source could have manufactured it or could be just as duped as we were initially. Its the after actions that concern me. Nothing wrong with an honest mistake. What's wrong is when its perpetuated when its found to be false.

I leave the door open for the source to redeem himself by classifying the material as to probability of being factual. A list of documents categorized as known to be true, assumed to be true, doubtfully true and known to be false would be helpful. Would go a long way to restoring credibility.

I don't agree with "they all fail" but great post.
Honestly, I am only interested in the "how" as in... how did the Olbers document in Helen's book pass for something official.
I am not even sure that it did. It still could be something made specifically for the book, which is why I want to see the original.
If it was made for the book, our efforts to disprove it were pointless. The document, not the information.
The original document from which the information was reproduced for Helen's book (possibly), will give us a better understanding of "how" it happened.
It could be something closer to an official ISTG document (an intended hoax) or notes from an intended work of fiction.

Until we see the original, we can't begin to understand what happened.

Keep in mind that if the document in Helen's book is the original (meaning a forged document), then we have to ask how it slipped thru competent, experienced, educated hands.
That's my question in all this.
How does it happen?

 

[azdave35]

I don't agree with "they all fail" but great post.
Honestly, I am only interested in the "how" as in... how did the Olbers document in Helen's book pass for something official.
I am not even sure that it did. It still could be something made specifically for the book, which is why I want to see the original.
If it was made for the book, our efforts to disprove it were pointless. The document, not the information.
The original document from which the information was reproduced for Helen's book (possibly), will give us a better understanding of "how" it happened.
It could be something closer to an official ISTG document (an intended hoax) or notes from an intended work of fiction.

Until we see the original, we can't begin to understand what happened.

Keep in mind that if the document in Helen's book is the original (meaning a forged document), then we have to ask how it slipped thru competent, experienced, educated hands.
That's my question in all this.
How does it happen?

hal...welcome to the real world..this kind of b.s. happens all the time when your dealing with authors...thats why i dont read many books...

 

[Hal Croves]

hal...welcome to the real world..this kind of b.s. happens all the time when your dealing with authors...thats why i dont read many books...

azdave,
Which is why we have publishers who, in this case, should have recalled the book.
Bob should not have shouldered that expense.

 

[gollum]

azdave,
Which is why we have publishers who, in this case, should have recalled the book.
Bob should not have shouldered that expense.

Hal,

You are trying to pick gnat $hit out of pepper. If it matters that much to you, then by all means keep beating that thing up.

After spending all that money, to recall a book for just the manifest, in a story about a mine that is mostly made up, and many people don't even believe exists? I am sure (even if they knew) that they likely thought it was just more fiction to add to the already enormous amount of fiction regarding the mine.

I am pretty confident that trusting her source and deadlines for finishing the book, were likely the main reasons that manifest ended up in the book. Bob Corbin absolutely did the honorable (and very costly) thing and buy back all the copies he could. We can "should'ved" "would'ved" and "could'ved" this story to death, but nothing matters except two things:

1. The ORIGINAL SOURCE for the manifest

2. The fact that the Ship Olbers did not make port in New Orleans on 17 November 1839

....as we say down South: When all the fat is boiled down to gravy......

Mike

 

[azdave35]

Hal,

You are trying to pick gnat $hit out of pepper. If it matters that much to you, then by all means keep beating that thing up.

After spending all that money, to recall a book for just the manifest, in a story about a mine that is mostly made up, and many people don't even believe exists? I am sure (even if they knew) that they likely thought it was just more fiction to add to the already enormous amount of fiction regarding the mine.

I am pretty confident that trusting her source and deadlines for finishing the book, were likely the main reasons that manifest ended up in the book. Bob Corbin absolutely did the honorable (and very costly) thing and buy back all the copies he could. We can "should'ved" "would'ved" and "could'ved" this story to death, but nothing matters except two things:

1. The ORIGINAL SOURCE for the manifest

2. The fact that the Ship Olbers did not make port in New Orleans on 17 November 1839

....as we say down South: When all the fat is boiled down to gravy......

Mike

lol...i bet any book about the ldm could be picked apart pretty easy if someone wanted to put the time into it

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

You are trying to pick gnat $hit out of pepper. If it matters that much to you, then by all means keep beating that thing up.

After spending all that money, to recall a book for just the manifest, in a story about a mine that is mostly made up, and many people don't even believe exists? I am sure (even if they knew) that they likely thought it was just more fiction to add to the already enormous amount of fiction regarding the mine.

I am pretty confident that trusting her source and deadlines for finishing the book, were likely the main reasons that manifest ended up in the book. Bob Corbin absolutely did the honorable (and very costly) thing and buy back all the copies he could. We can "should'ved" "would'ved" and "could'ved" this story to death, but nothing matters except two things:

1. The ORIGINAL SOURCE for the manifest

2. The fact that the Ship Olbers did not make port in New Orleans on 17 November 1839

....as we say down South: When all the fat is boiled down to gravy......

Mike

Its a thread about the transcribed Olbers Manifest in Helen's book.
When you weigh the experience of those involved against that document (as something other than a publisher's reproduction) there is a problem.


(red) Publisher or Helen?

 

[Oroblanco]

Its a thread about the transcribed Olbers Manifest in Helen's book.
When you weigh the experience of those involved against that document (as something other than a publisher's reproduction) there is a problem.


(red) Publisher or Helen?

Have you had a chance to read the book? If not, I can say that it is clear that Helen believed the source materials given to her were legitimate. And have to agree that the book is not 100% value-less; there are some genuine documents (un-altered or adulterated) like the affidavit from Bob in the back of the book for one example. Also agree that it should have been the publisher that recalled the books, not Bob. It would be great if a new, edited version could be published though.

 

[cw0909]

since the Olbers document is a hoax,fake not sure what to call it
i started looking at the Petition for Naturalization( see jpg )
below is the link to the jpg for the Declarations - Names done
by the.... Work Projects Administration March 1942 for
Index to Naturalization & Declaration Records
Adams County, MS 1798-1906, Work Projects Administration March 1942
there is no Jacob Waltz on the scanned index file . as soon, as i fig who i
should email call about it i will,could be a mistake and JW name was missed
and didnt make the index
but did find a Jacob Waltz Petition & Naturalization in 1848 in St. Louis City,Mo.
see jpg and link
a fyi on Naturalization & Declaration through the years with examples bottom of pg
USA Naturalization & Citizenship Records

Petition for Naturalization from Helen Corbin book


Names source 1942 doc.link
Declarations -
TYROLL, George - ZIEGLER, Georg Adam
Naturalizations
WIALE, Nicholas - ZURHELLEN, August
Adams County, MS Genealogical & Historical Research - Naturalizations
Names WPA project 1942


St Louis Declarations -& Naturalizations
Record Group St. Louis City Circuit Court-Criminal Court--CCCC, 1839-1896
Series Declaration of Aliens and Second Papers
search waltz
Missouri Digital Heritage : Naturalization Records, 1816 - 1955

 

[cactusjumper]

Its a thread about the transcribed Olbers Manifest in Helen's book.
When you weigh the experience of those involved against that document (as something other than a publisher's reproduction) there is a problem.


(red) Publisher or Helen?

Hal,

While that may be the direction of the thread, it's not the entire topic here: "Olber Manifest, and other fables of fantasy".

Mike and Roy are correct, mainly because they both are aware of the long record for this particular source for "fables of fantasy". In truth, the Olber's Manifest is just one of hundreds. Actually, there is an entire life of fantasy that has been constructed and disseminated over the years. Why does it matter?

It matters because the fantasy is the only thing that gives weight to the stories and reputation. That's what many of us once believed in and some, like you, still believe. Perhaps it's better if no one knows the truth. For me, I never want to live in that dark place again. I moved to Arizona because I prefer the sunshine.

Have a very Merry Christmas!

Joe Ribaudo

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

How little you know. Let's stop derailing this topic, shall we?

"Let's" as if it was about me being included in your diversion flack tactic some how? You jumped on me. As you also do others who seek truth and fact. Stop doing that and the (technically non-existent) problem you seek to solve which is entirely a fabrication you yourself created by your own actions will not need your further interference.

Hope you find some treasure, pal ....

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

While that may be the direction of the thread, it's not the entire topic here: "Olber Manifest, and other fables of fantasy".

Mike and Roy are correct, mainly because they both are aware of the long record for this particular source for "fables of fantasy". In truth, the Olber's Manifest is just one of hundreds. Actually, there is an entire life of fantasy that has been constructed and disseminated over the years. Why does it matter?

It matters because the fantasy is the only thing that gives weight to the stories and reputation. That's what many of us once believed in and some, like you, still believe. Perhaps it's better if no one knows the truth. For me, I never want to live in that dark place again. I moved to Arizona because I prefer the sunshine.

Have a very Merry Christmas!

Joe Ribaudo

Actually, you could not possibly know what I believe because I have not yet formed an opinion.
You are obviously hurt and perhaps preoccupied with Mathew beyond being the source which, makes it difficult for you to have an open conversation about the manifest.
I want to know how that document passed for something authentic or if it was created for the book?
Simple question.
You have offered illness and "shortcuts" as an explanation.
Others have suggested trust and deadlines.

At the same time you assign blame to only one of the individuals involved.
Your blame is simply unbalanced.
That document passed thru at least three sets of hands.
You yourself suspected it from the beginning.
Mike did as well.

I would think that you both would want answers where the manuscript is concerned.
That can only happen by understanding the facts.

So, was Matthew a paid source?
Can't seem to wiggle that one from you.