Olber Manifest, and other fables of fantasy

[Old]

Quote.........."You have shown examples of an original ISTG transcription and after comparing the two, you honestly believe that Helen was so taken with the source that she put experience and good judgement aside in a leap of faith?
I am not convinced."

Well, yes and no.

Yes, after comparing an original ISTG transcription and pages 9 & 10 of Ms. Corbins books, I believe it entirely possible Ms. Corbin had no reason to doubt the document was as it was presented. And; I dare say that if you and I were not privy to a ton of additional information and came to view the content and format of page 9 & 10 as Ms. Corbin originally did we would accept it at first glance also. Its only through much research, date comparisons and availability of on line immigrations records that a hole is blown through the credibility of the document.

No. I don't think she put good judgment and experience aside (singularly) in a leap of faith. It would be a lapse in judgment to accept it from a perfect stranger but not so from someone credentialed to be reliable. I believe she accepted the word and assurances of a friend, someone regarded as an "expert" and who was a supposed benefactor through family connections. Which makes it all the more sad.

 

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[deducer]

Mike,

The Olber's Manifest is certainly a conversation from awhile back, so my memory can't be relied on. No doubt you were part of that discussion, but to be truthful, I don't recall your being part of the "team" that went after the facts. Paul did most of the heavy lifting as I remember, finding the record of where some of the manifest was "lifted" from existing records.

Garry did the heavy lifting, with contributions from Greg and Roger.

Mike and Paul came late to the discussion, but that shouldn't discount the contributions either made to the discussion. Paul, of course, made the key discovery- namely the 1846 Mississippi ship manifest which was something he, himself, called a "lucky discovery."

It would be erroneous to say that Mike was not "part of the team," as he did his fair share of digging. He was the one who contacted ISTG, directly.

Your contribution to that thread, on the other hand, consisted mostly of goading Starman. This resulted in a bunch of silly posts that detracted from the discussion.

 

[cactusjumper]

No doubt Helen was an honest person and admired by friends.
I guess my last question is about her level of experience.
Do you believe that Helen considered the document an original ISTG transcription or do you think that she had the original forgery reproduce for her book?

Hal,

I never met Helen, but I have read all five of her books. One is a work of fiction that quite obviously required a great deal of research. That book is "Heroin: heroin is my shepherd". Probably her best researched and put together book, IMHO, is "King Of The Ice". To get a better feel for who Helen was as a person, without knowing her personally, I would suggest you read both books. Beyond that, talks with Bob Corbin would be your best bet.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Garry did the heavy lifting, with contributions from Greg and Roger.

Mike and Paul came late to the discussion, but that shouldn't discount the contributions either made to the discussion. Paul, of course, made the key discovery- namely the 1846 Mississippi ship manifest which was something he, himself, called a "lucky discovery."

It would be erroneous to say that Mike was not "part of the team," as he did his fair share of digging. He was the one who contacted ISTG, directly.

Your contribution to that thread, on the other hand, consisted mostly of goading Starman. This resulted in a bunch of silly posts that detracted from the discussion.

deducer,

You have no idea what you are talking about. I did a great deal of research into that subject, as did Paul. Other than critiquing my abilities, what exactly did you contribute?

We had a research team which was looking into many "facts" and evidence concerning the LDM. As I recall, Mike was not part of that team.......ever. On the other hand, that does not lessen the importance of the research he did.

Why don't you cut and past one of my offending posts and we can all see what proceeded it. All of my posts are still on The LDM Forum, as I was not in the habit of making wholesale deletions like some others.

Just who is "goading" who now.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[deducer]

deducer,

You have no idea what you are talking about. I did a great deal of research into that subject, as did Paul. Other than critiquing my abilities, what exactly did you contribute?

We had a research team which was looking into many "facts" and evidence concerning the LDM. As I recall, Mike was not part of that team.......ever. On the other hand, that does not lessen the importance of the research he did.

Why don't you cut and past one of my offending posts and we can all see what proceeded it. All of my posts are still on The LDM Forum, as I was not in the habit of making wholesale deletions like some others.

Just who is "goading" who now.

Joe Ribaudo

I'm sure you know that we can't quote or link to another forum.

 

[cactusjumper]

I'm sure you know that we can't quote or link to another forum.

deducer,

Actually, we have all cut and pasted quotes from other sites. Don't believe that's against the rules at all. On the other hand, you know it would be a waste of time for you to try and prove your statement.

Pretty much also a waste of time trying to goad me into my natural inclination to fight. I know it worked for you guys before, but I'm getting too old and decrepit for such things. Don't know, maybe if you resurrected a little Spirit to coax me out.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

I never met Helen, but I have read all five of her books. One is a work of fiction that quite obviously required a great deal of research. That book is "Heroin: heroin is my shepherd". Probably her best researched and put together book, IMHO, is "King Of The Ice". To get a better feel for who Helen was as a person, without knowing her personally, I would suggest you read both books. Beyond that, talks with Bob Corbin would be your best bet.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

It just seems as if something is missing.
You wrote "shortcuts' and I am beginning to think that it may be that simple.

Thanks for the insight.

 

[deducer]

deducer,

Actually, we have all cut and pasted quotes from other sites. Don't believe that's against the rules at all. On the other hand, you know it would be a waste of time for you to try and prove your statement.

Pretty much also a waste of time trying to goad me into my natural inclination to fight. I know it worked for you guys before, but I'm getting too old and decrepit for such things. Don't know, maybe if you resurrected a little Spirit to coax me out.

Joe Ribaudo

I am just stating what I read in the Olber Manifest thread which anyone can look up. In that thread, which Garry started, he wrote a number of posts that contained a lot of details. Mike made a number of contributions in that thread.

I'm sorry I did not know you were part of an exclusive "research team." Maybe I missed it but I hadn't read about it in any threads until you told Mike he had never been part of your "team." To my knowledge, nobody else has identified themselves as being part of your "team," so maybe you'd like to elaborate on that and tell us more about it?

 

[cactusjumper]

I am just stating what I read in the Olber Manifest thread which anyone can look up. In that thread, which Garry started, he wrote a number of posts that contained a lot of details. Mike made a number of contributions in that thread.

I'm sorry I did not know you were part of an exclusive "research team." Maybe I missed it but I hadn't read about it in any threads until you told Mike he had never been part of your "team." To my knowledge, nobody else has identified themselves as being part of your "team," so maybe you'd like to elaborate on that and tell us more about it?

deducer,

Sorry, but you have obviously been on a need to know basis. Most people know that a few of us have been working together for quite awhile now, trying to ferret out the truth of many LDM legends. Did you miss the fact that we debunked the Frank Alkire story? I did play a small part in that one......I think.

Garry has mentioned our names on his site. Can I assume you haven't been to it either?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Here's an early hint:

Joe,

I got the McGee/Bent letters. Thanks! That is quite a volume of correspondence over a period of about 3 years! I have only perused those letters and right now I am focused on the Don Burgess article in the Journal of the Southwest. (I do have a lot of help!)

The question for me has long been the who created them and the why they were created and how they were created. The evidence seems overwhelming, at least to me, that they are a hoax. Burgess has uncovered some very interesting information, that I was unaware of, on those three questions.

As far as Azhiker and local history, the family angles are only the tail of the elephant. He has been very successful in rewriting AZ history. I will certainly defer to you regarding his knowledge of the Apache but there is another whole story beyond Apaches and family.

Hiker will now most likely play his worn out victim card!

Garry
____________________________________________
Does any of that look like we were working together?

You need to try another line of attack.

Joe Ribaudo​

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy Old,

I know that you as others have already made your mind up that the Olbers Manifest is a fraud. I am not saying it isn't, I just don't jump in anyone's band wagon without proof. As Randy said, Jacob Waltz came by boat, prove that he came in a different boat.

Without proving that Jacob Waltz came in a different boat, it could very well have been the Olber. As Cubfan found out, nothing matches, things are close, but not actual matches. Mike questioned the ISTG directly concerning the Olbers Manifest. Even though they were unable to verify it, they said it didn't mean there was not a passenger list for that date that may have been destroyed.

Helen's book was published in 2002, and it wasn't until 2005 that the Olbers Manifest was questioned, and seen right off the bat that it was not an authentic document. Yes Helen may have been sick at the time, but she passed away in 2008. Her husband helped her with her book, and is acknowledged in it. They had plenty of time to assess the document before it was published.

In my opinion they both believed as did her source, that it was copied from an original document. It was the "research team" that got the best of Mr. Corbin, making him pull the book off the shelves without definite proof. If anyone can prove that Jacob Waltz came in a different boat, Helen's book is beyond a reasonable doubt, one of the best books out there.

Homar

 

[Oroblanco]

Howdy Old,

I know that you as others have already made your mind up that the Olbers Manifest is a fraud. I am not saying it isn't, I just don't jump in anyone's band wagon without proof. As Randy said, Jacob Waltz came by boat, prove that he came in a different boat.

Without proving that Jacob Waltz came in a different boat, it could very well have been the Olber. As Cubfan found out, nothing matches, things are close, but not actual matches. Mike questioned the ISTG directly concerning the Olbers Manifest. Even though they were unable to verify it, they said it didn't mean there was not a passenger list for that date that may have been destroyed.

Helen's book was published in 2002, and it wasn't until 2005 that the Olbers Manifest was questioned, and seen right off the bat that it was not an authentic document. Yes Helen may have been sick at the time, but she passed away in 2008. Her husband helped her with her book, and is acknowledged in it. They had plenty of time to assess the document before it was published.

In my opinion they both believed as did her source, that it was copied from an original document. It was the "research team" that got the best of Mr. Corbin, making him pull the book off the shelves without definite proof. If anyone can prove that Jacob Waltz came in a different boat, Helen's book is beyond a reasonable doubt, one of the best books out there.

Homar

I realize that post was directed to Old, and not intending to speak for her, just want to add two cents worth.

I seriously doubt that anyone could "make" Robert Corbin do anything. If you met him you would agree. I even tried to talk him OUT of the buy-back idea, on the grounds that that book is certainly not entirely worthless by any stretch of the imagination AND is a great read anyway. Besides, compared with some of the fictions out there in the market on the LDM, it is certainly not as bad as some.

Also doubt that Bob was even following the research on that other forum. One other thing but if you re-examine your time line there, yes there was time AFTER the book was published to re-examine the source materials, but not so much BEFORE it. And it took three years before anyone thought the Olbers manifest looked funny. I would bet that many people here reading this, did not catch it until they heard of the problems discovered by others.

On second thought, yes it is possible to MAKE Bob Corbin do something, I can make him laugh!

 

[Old]

Hey Homar,

Good post and I agree that Ms. Corbin's book is quite excellent (with some exceptions).

I can't prove which boat ole Jake came in but I can prove he didn't come on the one described in the Olbers manifest published by Ms. Corbin. That is certain.

There are many, many instances I could point to just as extraordinary, but here's just one.

Per the dubious 11-17-1839 Olbers Manifest: Ole Jake traveled with one Christian Noltemeyer, a 23 year old painter from Massenkamp, Hanover. Now Mr. Noltemeyer just happened to be standing in line to board ahead of one Mr. Franz Mihlan, a 36 year old locksmith from Neuroden, Schlesien when they were assigned their manifest numbers.

Evidently Mr. Noltemeyer and Mr. Mihlan didn't have a good go it in America and returned to their separate home towns sometime after touring New Orleans. But; we are told they took another try at it.

Per the ISTG ship "Mississippi" manifest arriving New Orlenans 7-16-1846: Mr. Noltemeyer must have gone through some form of reincarnation during that 7 year span because we see him again leaving Massenkamp, Hanover, this time at the tender age of 2, again boarding just ahead of Mr. Franz Mihlan, now age 37 and still a locksmith, and arriving New Orleans July 16, 1846. Some serious time warp going on with those two gentlemen.

The odds of that happening are about 1000 gazillion to one. Now add about 18 more people (we know of) and have confirmed making similar trips in similar circumstances all ending up on Jake's fateful ship and yeah; The November 17, 1839 Olbers just might be ligit. assuming it had a gale force tail wind both legs of its journey. Naw, aint happening.http://tnet.forumfoundry.com/forums/images/smilies/laughing7.gif

 

[Oroblanco]

One other thing here (to all) but in defense of Helen, in the introduction to this "bible" on page 3, she stated"
quote

In the year 2000 this author became privy to manuscripts and notes from new sources - the amazing diaries of pioneer families whose members included historians of persistent dedication and whose words have never before been exposed, and men who were the first into the Arizona Territory. Now for the first time there is documented proof that Jacob Waltz was among them. Their stories are incredible. As thje reader becomes aware of the treachery, terror and pain the pioneers endured, one can only marvel at their indomitable spirit and have new respect for those who came before us. While exposing the truth of their torment, we will hjave new insight into the reasons for the Apache's (sic) mutilation and torture, but more importantly, we will come to know Jacob Waltz as never before and will come closer to his infamous treasure.

unquote

I put that one sentence in BOLD which is not in bold in the book, to highlight that Helen had indeed got in contact with NEW SOURCES, which proved to be disastrous for her reputation. There was no reason to doubt these sources. As Old pointed out, we have the benefit of hindsight, and can ask why was this not caught at once, immediately, or say that was sloppy research, etc. Keep in mind that NEW information is found all the time, because a great deal of it is squirreled away in attics, dusty basements and can turn up at garage sales like for example it has happened that real original copies of the Declaration of Independence have been found. When a trusted source provides you with information that appears legitimate, do you immediately start hunting up proof to see if it is indeed true or not? I doubt that anyone does that, other than the CIA or FBI. (Or the old KGB har har) You don't have a reason to question it, because the person(s) providing it to you have never lied to you before, that you are aware of.

My bet is that Helen was probably pretty excited to be the author bringing these new documents to light, including that Olbers manifest, solid proof at last that no one had been able to find.

Heck I remember when I got my copy, I was impressed! There were a few things that did not seem quite right to me, but not the Olbers manifest - the one that troubled me had to do with the Dutchman with the Peeples or Weaver party (would have to look it up) which I had read about before, however that Dutchman had been killed by Apaches when he tried to recover a stolen horse so could not be Waltz.

Side thing here but my bet is that someone WILL find the ship that Jacob Waltz arrived in America on - and it will be that he arrived in California first, where there is a record of his obtaining citizenship. Many, many people came to America to join in the great California gold rush, remember the news of the 1848-9 strike literally went round the world and many thousands of prospectors traveled directly to California to try their luck. One of the fastest routes was to simply sail from Europe to Mexico, take a mule train to the west coast and then sail to San Francisco, but others sailed all the way around the Cape and still arrived faster than trekking across the "Great American Desert".

 

[cactusjumper]

Howdy Old,

I know that you as others have already made your mind up that the Olbers Manifest is a fraud. I am not saying it isn't, I just don't jump in anyone's band wagon without proof. As Randy said, Jacob Waltz came by boat, prove that he came in a different boat.

Without proving that Jacob Waltz came in a different boat, it could very well have been the Olber. As Cubfan found out, nothing matches, things are close, but not actual matches. Mike questioned the ISTG directly concerning the Olbers Manifest. Even though they were unable to verify it, they said it didn't mean there was not a passenger list for that date that may have been destroyed.

Helen's book was published in 2002, and it wasn't until 2005 that the Olbers Manifest was questioned, and seen right off the bat that it was not an authentic document. Yes Helen may have been sick at the time, but she passed away in 2008. Her husband helped her with her book, and is acknowledged in it. They had plenty of time to assess the document before it was published.

In my opinion they both believed as did her source, that it was copied from an original document. It was the "research team" that got the best of Mr. Corbin, making him pull the book off the shelves without definite proof. If anyone can prove that Jacob Waltz came in a different boat, Helen's book is beyond a reasonable doubt, one of the best books out there.

Homar

Homar,

I guess you know Mr. Corbin and the events surrounding his removing Helen's books from sale, pretty well to make that judgment. I have had hours of conversations with the man, many of them directly related to the book and that source. Rather than just repeat what others, who are probably involved with that source, have told you, you might want to familiarize yourself with the facts. I make that statement, because no one who is not familiar with the source could come up with that nonsense by themselves.

You write as if we had fooled Bob, which would be no easy task in itself. You do that without a shred of the evidence of which you speak. Bob has told me that he checked everything out himself, which is nothing less than I would expect. For you to speak on it, I would expect you to do exactly what Bob Corbin did. Without that, you have no clue about what you are passing judgment on, including the researchers.

I myself did not accept what was being written at first. The evidence of that is a public statement/rebuke I made on the Feldman Forum. It is still there to read. Try doing a little research yourself.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[azdave35]

Homar,

I guess you know Mr. Corbin and the events surrounding his removing Helen's books from sale, pretty well to make that judgment. I have had hours of conversations with the man, many of them directly related to the book and that source. Rather than just repeat what others, who are probably involved with that source, have told you, you might want to familiarize yourself with the facts. I make that statement, because no one who is not familiar with the source could come up with that nonsense by themselves.

You write as if we had fooled Bob, which would be no easy task in itself. You do that without a shred of the evidence of which you speak. Bob has told me that he checked everything out himself, which is nothing less than I would expect. For you to speak on it, I would expect you to do exactly what Bob Corbin did. Without that, you have no clue about what you are passing judgment on, including the researchers.

I myself did not accept what was being written at first. The evidence of that is a public statement/rebuke I made on the Feldman Forum. It is still there to read. Try doing a little research yourself.

Joe Ribaudo

i guess homar thinks he's smarter than bob corbin..now lets think about that for a minute..corbin was the arizona state attorney general and homar is who.....?

 

[cactusjumper]

i guess homar thinks he's smarter than bob corbin..now lets think about that for a minute..corbin was the arizona state attorney general and homar is who.....?

Dave,

That seems about right. Bob was also president of the NRA.....twice. Believe he was also the prosecutor in the Miranda Case. Perhaps some of the folks Homar has been listening to have heard of that little case. Probably not the best man to be insulting.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Deducer,

I didn't see if your statement was answered yet, but it is only against forum rules to link to another forum. I mention Feldman's LDM Forum, Steve Herschbach's Detector Prospector Forum, Desert USA, and a few others, and have never heard a peep from a Mod. I have forgotten, and posted links to other forums and had them quickly taken down.

Mike,

The Olber's Manifest is certainly a conversation from awhile back, so my memory can't be relied on. No doubt you were part of that discussion, but to be truthful, I don't recall your being part of the "team" that went after the facts. Paul did most of the heavy lifting as I remember, finding the record of where some of the manifest was "lifted" from existing records. We certainly covered it to some very minute details. My problem here is that I hate to see Mrs. Corbin's reputation being drug through the weeds. I have read all of the books she authored, some not having anything to do with the LDM, and she was a fine author.

A transcription is a copy of another document, not to be confused as the original document.

As an aside, I did find both Jacob Waltz's and Jacob Wiser's (more than one of each) in records from the Civil War.

Good luck,

Joe

Joe,

I am right with you on the memory thing. A couple of times (ONLY a couple HAHAHA), I would have sworn on a Bible that I was right about something (and it was always about something I DID!), only to have been proven wrong. I vowed never to make the same mistake again (if I could help it). As you said, that discussion started a long time ago. I don't even think I started posting about the Dutchman until about 2006. I was busy chasing down a large box of research left by Chuck Kenworthy regarding Anza-Borrego (CA) and the Lost Gonzalez Mine (still not finished with that monster).

In light of my previous statement, I went back to our source (Feldman's Forum), Novice started the whole thing on 04 May 2005. You had good input (except for your "good source" about Tom K being Mrs Corbin's Source for the manifest HAHAHA). I read 22 pages of Roger, Novice, and a couple of others researching the hell out of the story, Bill behaving horribly, and you Redison, Dutch Elm Disease bickering (granted, it was about them casting aspersions at Mrs Corbin who could not answer or defend herself, and a very good reason for a fight [in my eyes]). Up until I began posting, not one of the researchers had directly contacted the ISTG, and NOBODY before my FIRST post had compared the blocks of passenger lists of other ships for matches. My first post was in 2011:



The next post after mine was a day later (13 April 2011):



That was 12 April 2011. I sent my email to the ISTG

 

[gollum]

Deducer,

I didn't see if your statement was answered yet, but it is only against forum rules to link to another forum. I mention Feldman's LDM Forum, Steve Herschbach's Detector Prospector Forum, Desert USA, and a few others, and have never heard a peep from a Mod. I have forgotten, and posted links to other forums and had them quickly taken down.

Mike,

The Olber's Manifest is certainly a conversation from awhile back, so my memory can't be relied on. No doubt you were part of that discussion, but to be truthful, I don't recall your being part of the "team" that went after the facts. Paul did most of the heavy lifting as I remember, finding the record of where some of the manifest was "lifted" from existing records. We certainly covered it to some very minute details. My problem here is that I hate to see Mrs. Corbin's reputation being drug through the weeds. I have read all of the books she authored, some not having anything to do with the LDM, and she was a fine author.

A transcription is a copy of another document, not to be confused as the original document.

As an aside, I did find both Jacob Waltz's and Jacob Wiser's (more than one of each) in records from the Civil War.

Good luck,

Joe

Joe,

I am right with you on the memory thing. A couple of times (ONLY a couple HAHAHA), I would have sworn on a Bible that I was right about something (and it was always about something I DID!), only to have been proven wrong. I vowed never to make the same mistake again (if I could help it). As you said, that discussion started a long time ago. I don't even think I started posting about the Dutchman until about 2006. I was busy chasing down a large box of research left by Chuck Kenworthy regarding Anza-Borrego (CA) and the Lost Gonzalez Mine (still not finished with that monster).

In light of my previous statement, I went back to our source (Feldman's Forum), Novice started the whole thing on 04 May 2005. You had good input (except for your "good source" about Tom K being Mrs Corbin's Source for the manifest HAHAHA). I read 22 pages of Roger, Novice, and a couple of others researching the hell out of the story, Bill behaving horribly, and you Redison, Dutch Elm Disease bickering (granted, it was about them casting aspersions at Mrs Corbin who could not answer or defend herself, and a very good reason for a fight [in my eyes]). Up until I began posting, not one of the researchers had directly contacted the ISTG, and NOBODY before my FIRST post had compared the blocks of passenger lists of other ships for matches. My first post was in 2011:

View attachment 1246776

Cubfan posted the next post after mine a day later (13 April 2011):



Looks like we found the same information about the same time. I alluded to it first, but he posted a link first.

I also was the first (in five years) to directly contact the ISTG:



That was my original email to the ISTG after a nice phone conversation. This was their first response:



Okay, so the original passenger list may have been destroyed. My research found that a significant portion of Passenger Records in the archives at the Port of New Orleans had been destroyed in a fire many years earlier. So it sounded plausible. So.......I scanned the pic of the Olbers Manifest and emailed it to the very lovely person of Mrs Zanon (who helped me immeasurably in researching several things with the ISTG [not only Olbers[). This was her reply:



This (while not the answer I was hoping for) answered any question in my mind as to the authenticity of The Olbers Manifest as presented in The Bible on the LDM. It was a fraudulently prepared document.

Still wanting to be ABSOLUTELY certain of my work, I looked for some kind of period verification. I scoured old newspapers. I started seeing the "MARINE INTELLIGENCE REPORTS" daily in the New Orleans Times Picayune. I found the issue from 17 November 1839 (which I posted here for the first time):



There was my period documented absolute proof that no Ship Olbers had made port in New Orleans as stated by the "Bible" Olbers Manifest. I congratulated Paul, and proceeded to show specifics as to which names had been cut and pasted, and how it was done:



Comparing manifest entries is LOOOOOONG and tedious work. I started with a much earlier date than Paul did. He got to 1846 before I had. I started with the ISTG Olbers Manifest for 1836, and started working newer.

So, in a couple of days (April 12th and 13th), Paul and I put the final nails in the coffin of that document.

Maybe you care to explain again how I didn't have anything to do with researching or verifying the Olbers Manifest? I may not have started until long after the conversation began, but I was definitely one of the ones that ended it. Y'alls research basically ended in 2006. There were a couple of posts after that, but nothing from 2006 until 2010, when you outed Matthew as being the source for the manifest. I just couldn't believe that none of you had contacted the ISTG Directly or compared ship manifest entries in five years.

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Thanks for jogging my memory. I apologize for not remembering how much leg work you were doing. That was exceptional work you did.

I started out working, I believe, with Garry on the Alkire story. I think he may have already been working with Larry. Somewhere in the midst of that research, I suggested to Garry that we add Paul into the mix, as he was very intelligent and was like a bulldog once he got started on something. The four of us worked as a team for quite awhile, sharing information and ideas. The "team" as I have referred to it was only the four of us, as far as I know.

The rest of the guys did most of the heavy research. My biggest contributions came on the Alkire story, as I remember it. Perhaps some of the others can give us some input. Garry is here on a fairly regular basis.

I am proud of what we turned up.

Thanks again,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Just to be clear, Garry started that conversation, on the LDM Forum, on May 4, 2005. I was the first one to reply and had already started started my own research prior to that. Roger posted the site for the Ship's Guild on May 5, 2005, I had already been gathering information from that site. We started many of our projects before discussing them on the forum.

You first posted on that topic on Apr. 13, 2011 That was around 22-pages after it started. You certainly did go farther than I did in your research efforts. That's because I was convinced early on that it was not authentic. My memory of those events is not that good as it certainly was a long time ago. I did think Tom was the source, but he told me he was not. Farther on in the thread, I mentioned that Matthew Roberts was the most likely source.

Thanks for sending me back to the original topic. You did some very nice posting on the subject.

Take care,

Joe