You´re right, Vox. This is just opinion. And fireworks to a convinced bunch of readers. I read it three times and I didnt find even a secret on the whole text. The only curious thing is that Santiago Mata finds absurd that the Black Swan was La Mercedes. He´s been crucifying OME during some years for saying that it could be possible that the Black Swan wasnt La Mercedes. So what is a secret to me is what is there inside the head of this man, Mr. Paranoid Mata and the gang behind him. Strenuous.
Odyssey Marine Article...
- Thread starter jeff k
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #1,842
Trinidad... Mata posted the following on the Yahoo board.
"I also invite you to read this Sunday in the report that title ERA Odyssey. Secrets of Treasure " .
Finally, if you have mood this Sunday at 9.15 may 11 to hear the Capital program weekend Intereconomía Radio , which interviewed Tortajada Manuel Santiago Mata (ie me) over the reporting period and the Odyssey case .
And do not forget the conference on Tuesday March 20 at the Ateneo de Madrid."
"I also invite you to read this Sunday in the report that title ERA Odyssey. Secrets of Treasure " .
Finally, if you have mood this Sunday at 9.15 may 11 to hear the Capital program weekend Intereconomía Radio , which interviewed Tortajada Manuel Santiago Mata (ie me) over the reporting period and the Odyssey case .
And do not forget the conference on Tuesday March 20 at the Ateneo de Madrid."
Vox veritas
Bronze Member
- Aug 2, 2008
- 1,078
- 273
- Primary Interest:
- All Treasure Hunting
trinidad said:
Trini,
"Expediente Odyssey" tend a big virtue: it is shown from official documents irrefutable, overwhelming and conclusive. Expected to read it and then you judge it.
P.S. have you read the documents of "Bahía II" case?
MORE AND BEYOND OSSY
Bronze Member
Hola Panfilo, Beautiful Lions same used by Richard the lion heart.Panfilo said:
English back ground
On my crest they are wolfs, Lobos. I love animals especially dogs, must be in my DNA from my
ancestors .
Ossy
MORE AND BEYOND OSSY
Bronze Member
I'm puzzled jeffJeff K said:
Odyssey kept saying they didn't know what ship is wasand it was up to Spain to prove it was a Sovereign vessel , here you a guy saying it's not the Mercedes
wouldn't that help Odyssey case ? Or is there some true, that it came from Spanish waters !
Ossy
piratediver
Sr. Member
On October 5, 1804, Spanish navy captain José Bustamante probably frowned when he looked through his telescope and discovered the Union Jack waving at the top of the mast approaching his frigate, off Cape St. Mary near Gibraltar. After overcoming illnesses, storms and attacks from pirates during five long weeks, the Spanish fleet that was bringing a cargo of gold, silver and other valuable goods from South America, was just 180 kilometers away from its final destination in Cadiz. But they never got to enter the safe waters of the Andalusian port.
A fierce attack from the British Navy commanded by Commodore Graham Moore was lethal for the four Spanish frigates. Three of them were conducted to Great Britain after Captain Bustamante surrendered. The fourth one, the frigate Santa María de las Mercedes was heavily bombed by the British guns and sank, filled with gold and silver coins, and 254 human lives.
The treasure has lain on the ocean floor for over two centuries. On May 18, 2007 the Tampa-based company Odyssey Marine Exploration Inc. announced that it had recovered 17 tons of coins, mostly silver, off the Portuguese coast. It was the most valuable finding from a single shipwreck in history, the company said. A few days later, Odyssey showed some of the coins to the media. The Spanish Government immediately recognized the effigy of King Carlos IV and, matching the archive of vessels sunk, soon concluded that the treasure discovered by Odyssey belonged to Las Mercedes' shipwreck, which contained over one million coins from Peru shipped from the port of Montevideo in 1804.
A new battle began. It is a battle that has lasted almost five years, where diplomacy and the legal arguments have replaced shotguns; a battle undertaken not in the fierce waters of the Atlantic Ocean but in the quiet halls of the American Courts. Its latest episode took place on February 17, 2012, when U. S. Magistrate Judge Mark Pizzo ruled against the American company and ordered Odyssey to return the coins to Spain. At the same time, the U.S. Supreme court declined to hear the case. Nine days later the 600,000 pieces -- worth $500 million -- flew to Spain in two military planes and are now officially part of the Spanish cultural heritage.
The ruling has caused very different reactions on both sides of the Atlantic. The Spanish Minister of Culture, Jose Ignacio Wert, expressed the enormous satisfaction of the Spanish Government; Odyssey Vice President Melinda MacConnel, visibly disappointed, stated that the ruling had been politically influenced and that this precedent would discourage other treasure hunters from reporting their finds in the future. "The items will be hidden or even worse, melted down or sold on eBay," she said.
Despite its euphoria, Spain should not overlook the future consequences of the case. According to estimations of the Spanish Army, there could be as many as 3,000 Spanish shipwrecks that sank during the fourth century colonial age. Some say that the gold and silver inside them could be worth €100 billion, ten percent of the Spanish GDP. These figures could be realistic since the first archeological campaign undertaken by the Spanish Army in 2010 has detected only 128 shipwrecks in the Gulf of Cádiz.
Odyssey is an example of how private initiatives can move further and faster than governments in gathering the information and technology necessary to archeological discoveries. For that reason, the Spanish Government should be careful about the incentives and signals sent to the private agents. This case would have been a unique opportunity to establish a framework of collaboration between private and public agents that could increase the number of discoveries -- and the world's cultural heritage -- as well as profit treasure hunters.
However, Spain has decided not to share the findings and now will have to strengthen the surveillance operations and increase the budget allocated to these activities. While Spain is certainly allocating more money and attention to cultural discovery, it may also be giving up future recoveries. By deterring private initiative, funds and technology, Spain may be forestalling the discovery of cultural treasures.
But this is not the only missed opportunity. During the legal process, the government of Peru has claimed part of the treasure, since most of the precious metals and coins --that were intended to finance the war between Spain, France and Great Britain -- came from the former Spanish colony. Minister Wert has announced that the coins will be split and shown in different museums once they are classified. Nonetheless, it seems that all of them will be museums in Spain. Again, Spain is missing the opportunity to share the cultural heritage with its legitimate co-owners and pay back, at least symbolically, the moral debt that former empires have with their colonies. Indeed, culture and common heritage is an effective instrument to heal wounds from the past, but Spain has discarded it.
The episode of Las Mercedes is a rich legacy in colonial history that marks European wars, maritime battles, colonialism, high tech treasure hunting and international law. But above all, it demonstrates that the final word is never written and that history continues to provide modern countries with means for cooperation and mutual respect. By failing to lead a new approach to the cultural legacy, Spain may be incurring a cost much higher than what the coins of Las Mercedes can pay.
Manuel Garcia-Hernandez has been an adviser to the Spanish Minister of Industry, Tourism and Trade. He is completing his Master's of Public Administration at the Harvard Kennedy School of Government.
A fierce attack from the British Navy commanded by Commodore Graham Moore was lethal for the four Spanish frigates. Three of them were conducted to Great Britain after Captain Bustamante surrendered. The fourth one, the frigate Santa María de las Mercedes was heavily bombed by the British guns and sank, filled with gold and silver coins, and 254 human lives.
The treasure has lain on the ocean floor for over two centuries. On May 18, 2007 the Tampa-based company Odyssey Marine Exploration Inc. announced that it had recovered 17 tons of coins, mostly silver, off the Portuguese coast. It was the most valuable finding from a single shipwreck in history, the company said. A few days later, Odyssey showed some of the coins to the media. The Spanish Government immediately recognized the effigy of King Carlos IV and, matching the archive of vessels sunk, soon concluded that the treasure discovered by Odyssey belonged to Las Mercedes' shipwreck, which contained over one million coins from Peru shipped from the port of Montevideo in 1804.
A new battle began. It is a battle that has lasted almost five years, where diplomacy and the legal arguments have replaced shotguns; a battle undertaken not in the fierce waters of the Atlantic Ocean but in the quiet halls of the American Courts. Its latest episode took place on February 17, 2012, when U. S. Magistrate Judge Mark Pizzo ruled against the American company and ordered Odyssey to return the coins to Spain. At the same time, the U.S. Supreme court declined to hear the case. Nine days later the 600,000 pieces -- worth $500 million -- flew to Spain in two military planes and are now officially part of the Spanish cultural heritage.
The ruling has caused very different reactions on both sides of the Atlantic. The Spanish Minister of Culture, Jose Ignacio Wert, expressed the enormous satisfaction of the Spanish Government; Odyssey Vice President Melinda MacConnel, visibly disappointed, stated that the ruling had been politically influenced and that this precedent would discourage other treasure hunters from reporting their finds in the future. "The items will be hidden or even worse, melted down or sold on eBay," she said.
Despite its euphoria, Spain should not overlook the future consequences of the case. According to estimations of the Spanish Army, there could be as many as 3,000 Spanish shipwrecks that sank during the fourth century colonial age. Some say that the gold and silver inside them could be worth €100 billion, ten percent of the Spanish GDP. These figures could be realistic since the first archeological campaign undertaken by the Spanish Army in 2010 has detected only 128 shipwrecks in the Gulf of Cádiz.
Odyssey is an example of how private initiatives can move further and faster than governments in gathering the information and technology necessary to archeological discoveries. For that reason, the Spanish Government should be careful about the incentives and signals sent to the private agents. This case would have been a unique opportunity to establish a framework of collaboration between private and public agents that could increase the number of discoveries -- and the world's cultural heritage -- as well as profit treasure hunters.
However, Spain has decided not to share the findings and now will have to strengthen the surveillance operations and increase the budget allocated to these activities. While Spain is certainly allocating more money and attention to cultural discovery, it may also be giving up future recoveries. By deterring private initiative, funds and technology, Spain may be forestalling the discovery of cultural treasures.
But this is not the only missed opportunity. During the legal process, the government of Peru has claimed part of the treasure, since most of the precious metals and coins --that were intended to finance the war between Spain, France and Great Britain -- came from the former Spanish colony. Minister Wert has announced that the coins will be split and shown in different museums once they are classified. Nonetheless, it seems that all of them will be museums in Spain. Again, Spain is missing the opportunity to share the cultural heritage with its legitimate co-owners and pay back, at least symbolically, the moral debt that former empires have with their colonies. Indeed, culture and common heritage is an effective instrument to heal wounds from the past, but Spain has discarded it.
The episode of Las Mercedes is a rich legacy in colonial history that marks European wars, maritime battles, colonialism, high tech treasure hunting and international law. But above all, it demonstrates that the final word is never written and that history continues to provide modern countries with means for cooperation and mutual respect. By failing to lead a new approach to the cultural legacy, Spain may be incurring a cost much higher than what the coins of Las Mercedes can pay.
Manuel Garcia-Hernandez has been an adviser to the Spanish Minister of Industry, Tourism and Trade. He is completing his Master's of Public Administration at the Harvard Kennedy School of Government.
- Thread starter
- #1,847
Correction:
On October 5, 1804, Spanish navy captain José Bustamante probably peed in his pants when he looked through his telescope and discovered the Union Jack waving at the top of the mast approaching his frigate, off Cape St. Mary near Gibraltar.
On October 5, 1804, Spanish navy captain José Bustamante probably peed in his pants when he looked through his telescope and discovered the Union Jack waving at the top of the mast approaching his frigate, off Cape St. Mary near Gibraltar.
VOC
Sr. Member
"On October 5, 1804, Spanish navy captain José Bustamante probably peed in his pants when he looked through his telescope and discovered the Union Jack waving at the top of the mast approaching his frigate, off Cape St. Mary near Gibraltar".
I am sure he did, just like the Amarda captains did when they first saw Drake & Co comming out of Plymouth !
I am sure he did, just like the Amarda captains did when they first saw Drake & Co comming out of Plymouth !
gord
Hero Member
Surprising that the Spanish didn`t copy the French and change the uniform to include brown pants.
- Thread starter
- #1,850
HMS Victory Project
In 2008, Odyssey discovered HMS Victory and is, under international law, salvor-in-possession of the wreck. After a period of joint consultation between the UK Ministry of Defense and the UK Department for Culture, Media and Sport, and a public consultation period, the title to the HMS Victory was transferred to the Maritime Heritage Foundation in January 2012. The Foundation is a charity established to locate shipwrecks, investigate, recover and preserve artifacts to the highest archaeological standards and to promote knowledge and understanding of Britain’s maritime heritage, has now assumed responsibility for the future management of the wreck site. The Foundation has contracted with Odyssey to provide a full range of archaeological services.
Pursuant to an agreement with the Foundation, Odyssey has produced an extensive project design for the archaeological excavation of the site, including a complete plan for recording, documentation, conservation, publication and public education. The agreement calls for Odyssey’s project costs to be reimbursed and for Odyssey to be paid a percentage of the recovered artifacts’ fair value. The preferred option is for Odyssey to be compensated in cash. However, if the Foundation determines, based on the principles adopted for their collection management and curation policy, that it is in its best interest to de-accession certain artifacts, the Foundation may choose to compensate Odyssey with artifacts in lieu of cash.
Odyssey will receive the equivalent of 80% of the fair value of artifacts that were primarily used in trade or commerce or were private property and bear no direct connection to the construction, navigation, defense or crew of the ship, such as coins or other similar cargo. Odyssey will receive the equivalent of 50% of the fair value of all other recovered objects typically associated with the construction, crewing and sailing of ships including, but not limited to, the ship’s hull, fittings, fasteners, construction elements, clothing, organic remains, foodstuffs, cooking utensils, pottery, weapons, ammunition, ground tackle and navigational equipment. For any private property including coins or other cargo administered through the Receiver of Wreck, the Foundation has agreed that Odyssey shall receive 80% of the value.
A Private Curatorship Program will be established for artifacts from the site considered by the Foundation to be suitable for de-accession to prevent their irretrievable dispersal and to allow ongoing scientific study.
We have recently completed an extensive non-intrusive preliminary survey of the Victory site, using several new advanced technologies which have provided a detailed three dimensional inspection of both the surface and sub-sedimentary portions of the site. We now have a detailed map which shows a total of at least 75 bronze cannon on the site, as well as differentiated deposits of both ferrous and non-ferrous metals. This data will be used to guide the preliminary excavation of the site, once the Foundation approves the commencement of this excavation. The Foundation has approved the Project Design which was required prior to the start of excavation, and it has been submitted to the Advisory Group chaired by the UK MOD for the purpose of opining as to whether the Project Design is consistent with the archaeological principles of the Rules of the UNESCO Convention. We are confident that the Research Design is consistent with these Rules, as they were followed precisely to conform with the archaeological principles as delineated.
“Gairsoppa” Project
On January 25, 2010, Odyssey was awarded the exclusive salvage contract for the cargo of the SS Gairsoppa by the United Kingdom (UK) Government Department for Transport. The contract was awarded after a competitive bid process.
The SS Gairsoppa was a 412-foot steel-hulled British cargo ship that was torpedoed by a German U-boat in February 1941 while enlisted in the service of the United Kingdom (UK) Ministry of War Transport. Contemporary research and official documents indicate that the ship was carrying £600,000 (1941 value) or up to 7 million total ounces of silver, including over 3 million ounces of private silver bullion insured by the UK government. The British Ministry of War Transport paid a War Risk Insurance Claim for £325,514 (in 1941 value) for 2,817 bars of silver that was reported to be on board the Gairsoppa when she sank.
Under the recovery contract, Odyssey assumes the risk, expense, and responsibility for the search, cargo recovery, documentation, and marketing of the cargo. Any monetary proceeds from the salvage will first be applied to reimbursement of Odyssey’s recovery and processing expenses. Any remaining monetary proceeds will next be divided with Odyssey retaining 80% of the net salved value, and 20% retained by the UK. This project aligns with our preferred strategy to focus our search and recovery activities on partnership projects with governments when appropriate, so as to provide straightforward legal contractual arrangements prior to our recovery efforts.
In June 2011, we executed a charter agreement to utilize the Russian Research Vessel Yuzhmorgeologiya to conduct search operations for the SS Gairsoppa. Search operations began in July 2011. On September 26, 2011, we announced confirmation of the identity and location of the SS Gairsoppa approximately 300 miles southwest of Galway, Ireland in waters approximately 4700 meters deep. We subsequently began acquiring and assembling the vessel, equipment, tools and team for the salvage. We anticipate salvage recovery operations will begin in late May to mid-June 2012.
Odyssey is planning a reconnaissance trip to the SS Gairsoppa site in March using an advanced ROV system which features a second miniature ROV similar to the one used to inspect the interior spaces on the Titanic. This system is capable of entering tiny spaces and sending high resolution video back to the ship in real time. This expedition may last up to a month and is designed to plan the recovery operations, including determination of the possible location of the silver cargo.
In 2008, Odyssey discovered HMS Victory and is, under international law, salvor-in-possession of the wreck. After a period of joint consultation between the UK Ministry of Defense and the UK Department for Culture, Media and Sport, and a public consultation period, the title to the HMS Victory was transferred to the Maritime Heritage Foundation in January 2012. The Foundation is a charity established to locate shipwrecks, investigate, recover and preserve artifacts to the highest archaeological standards and to promote knowledge and understanding of Britain’s maritime heritage, has now assumed responsibility for the future management of the wreck site. The Foundation has contracted with Odyssey to provide a full range of archaeological services.
Pursuant to an agreement with the Foundation, Odyssey has produced an extensive project design for the archaeological excavation of the site, including a complete plan for recording, documentation, conservation, publication and public education. The agreement calls for Odyssey’s project costs to be reimbursed and for Odyssey to be paid a percentage of the recovered artifacts’ fair value. The preferred option is for Odyssey to be compensated in cash. However, if the Foundation determines, based on the principles adopted for their collection management and curation policy, that it is in its best interest to de-accession certain artifacts, the Foundation may choose to compensate Odyssey with artifacts in lieu of cash.
Odyssey will receive the equivalent of 80% of the fair value of artifacts that were primarily used in trade or commerce or were private property and bear no direct connection to the construction, navigation, defense or crew of the ship, such as coins or other similar cargo. Odyssey will receive the equivalent of 50% of the fair value of all other recovered objects typically associated with the construction, crewing and sailing of ships including, but not limited to, the ship’s hull, fittings, fasteners, construction elements, clothing, organic remains, foodstuffs, cooking utensils, pottery, weapons, ammunition, ground tackle and navigational equipment. For any private property including coins or other cargo administered through the Receiver of Wreck, the Foundation has agreed that Odyssey shall receive 80% of the value.
A Private Curatorship Program will be established for artifacts from the site considered by the Foundation to be suitable for de-accession to prevent their irretrievable dispersal and to allow ongoing scientific study.
We have recently completed an extensive non-intrusive preliminary survey of the Victory site, using several new advanced technologies which have provided a detailed three dimensional inspection of both the surface and sub-sedimentary portions of the site. We now have a detailed map which shows a total of at least 75 bronze cannon on the site, as well as differentiated deposits of both ferrous and non-ferrous metals. This data will be used to guide the preliminary excavation of the site, once the Foundation approves the commencement of this excavation. The Foundation has approved the Project Design which was required prior to the start of excavation, and it has been submitted to the Advisory Group chaired by the UK MOD for the purpose of opining as to whether the Project Design is consistent with the archaeological principles of the Rules of the UNESCO Convention. We are confident that the Research Design is consistent with these Rules, as they were followed precisely to conform with the archaeological principles as delineated.
“Gairsoppa” Project
On January 25, 2010, Odyssey was awarded the exclusive salvage contract for the cargo of the SS Gairsoppa by the United Kingdom (UK) Government Department for Transport. The contract was awarded after a competitive bid process.
The SS Gairsoppa was a 412-foot steel-hulled British cargo ship that was torpedoed by a German U-boat in February 1941 while enlisted in the service of the United Kingdom (UK) Ministry of War Transport. Contemporary research and official documents indicate that the ship was carrying £600,000 (1941 value) or up to 7 million total ounces of silver, including over 3 million ounces of private silver bullion insured by the UK government. The British Ministry of War Transport paid a War Risk Insurance Claim for £325,514 (in 1941 value) for 2,817 bars of silver that was reported to be on board the Gairsoppa when she sank.
Under the recovery contract, Odyssey assumes the risk, expense, and responsibility for the search, cargo recovery, documentation, and marketing of the cargo. Any monetary proceeds from the salvage will first be applied to reimbursement of Odyssey’s recovery and processing expenses. Any remaining monetary proceeds will next be divided with Odyssey retaining 80% of the net salved value, and 20% retained by the UK. This project aligns with our preferred strategy to focus our search and recovery activities on partnership projects with governments when appropriate, so as to provide straightforward legal contractual arrangements prior to our recovery efforts.
In June 2011, we executed a charter agreement to utilize the Russian Research Vessel Yuzhmorgeologiya to conduct search operations for the SS Gairsoppa. Search operations began in July 2011. On September 26, 2011, we announced confirmation of the identity and location of the SS Gairsoppa approximately 300 miles southwest of Galway, Ireland in waters approximately 4700 meters deep. We subsequently began acquiring and assembling the vessel, equipment, tools and team for the salvage. We anticipate salvage recovery operations will begin in late May to mid-June 2012.
Odyssey is planning a reconnaissance trip to the SS Gairsoppa site in March using an advanced ROV system which features a second miniature ROV similar to the one used to inspect the interior spaces on the Titanic. This system is capable of entering tiny spaces and sending high resolution video back to the ship in real time. This expedition may last up to a month and is designed to plan the recovery operations, including determination of the possible location of the silver cargo.
MORE AND BEYOND OSSY
Bronze Member
Piratediver, How would have odyssey selling the coins helped Spain 
Do you really believe they would
have shared some of it with Spain
What a Joke !!!
So now if you find a Spanish wreck your not going to share it, Any Difference
How much did Mel Fisher share with Spain
And Spain did not even claim the Atocha !
VOC if you read your own history it was the English peeing and pooping after the first exchanges
during the armada. Lucky for them the storm blew up.
Ossy
Do you really believe they wouldhave shared some of it with Spain
What a Joke !!!So now if you find a Spanish wreck your not going to share it, Any Difference
How much did Mel Fisher share with Spain
And Spain did not even claim the Atocha !VOC if you read your own history it was the English peeing and pooping after the first exchanges
during the armada. Lucky for them the storm blew up.
Ossy
VOC:
José Joaquín de Bustamante y Guerra was a very brave naval officer, he never “peed in his pants” as one can tell from studying his life. He enlisted in the Spanish Navy when he was 10 and was alferez de fragata when he was 12. When he was 25 admirably he was Capitan de fragata after being knighted by the King in the Orden de Santiago. He had several run-ins with pirates and was taken prisoner and jailed in Ireland for one year. Though he was seriously injured, he played an important role in the battle against Lord Howe in Gibraltar waters and was very close to invading Jamaica.
In 1789 he was part of the most interesting scientific expedition of his time, the Malaspina-Bustamante expedition which traveled the world and made fantastic discoveries and travels. He later served in Guatemala and was Director General of the Navy in his later years.
No VOC, when he saw the British approaching the Mercedes he probably gave them the finger surely didn’t blink and didn’t sweat as he had been in very serious situations in his very productive life.
Panfilo
PD Ossy=Osorio?
José Joaquín de Bustamante y Guerra was a very brave naval officer, he never “peed in his pants” as one can tell from studying his life. He enlisted in the Spanish Navy when he was 10 and was alferez de fragata when he was 12. When he was 25 admirably he was Capitan de fragata after being knighted by the King in the Orden de Santiago. He had several run-ins with pirates and was taken prisoner and jailed in Ireland for one year. Though he was seriously injured, he played an important role in the battle against Lord Howe in Gibraltar waters and was very close to invading Jamaica.
In 1789 he was part of the most interesting scientific expedition of his time, the Malaspina-Bustamante expedition which traveled the world and made fantastic discoveries and travels. He later served in Guatemala and was Director General of the Navy in his later years.
No VOC, when he saw the British approaching the Mercedes he probably gave them the finger surely didn’t blink and didn’t sweat as he had been in very serious situations in his very productive life.
Panfilo
PD Ossy=Osorio?
VOC
Sr. Member
Politics of Envy Alexandre ?
Jealousy is the ruination of many a man
Just because your socialist comrades have not got the technology, skills or money to successfully carry out deep water archaeology, don’t keep knocking those that do.
We all saw the cock up and cover up that your mates at Texas A&M did when they tried it
Panfilo
"very brave naval officer", I did not know that term ever existed in Spanish Naval history !
Jealousy is the ruination of many a man
Just because your socialist comrades have not got the technology, skills or money to successfully carry out deep water archaeology, don’t keep knocking those that do.
We all saw the cock up and cover up that your mates at Texas A&M did when they tried it
Panfilo
"very brave naval officer", I did not know that term ever existed in Spanish Naval history !
MORE AND BEYOND OSSY
Bronze Member
VOC my POMMY friend , Sounds like you are jealous of the SpanishVOC said:
Panfilo, Osorio? I'm not Basque. Mother from Galicia father from Madrid.
Ossy
PS, VOC interesting photo.
Well, today, 13 March, it´s a good day to see what a “very brave naval spanish officer” means. Just take a look on this link;:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cartagena_de_Indias
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cartagena_de_Indias
VOC
Sr. Member
Ok, Ok,
So we were having a bit of a bad day.
Spain may have won a few battles here and there, but what was more important is we won the wars that let us control the Atlantic and to go on and build the worlds largest empire.
So we were having a bit of a bad day.
Spain may have won a few battles here and there, but what was more important is we won the wars that let us control the Atlantic and to go on and build the worlds largest empire.
MORE AND BEYOND OSSY
Bronze Member
VOC said:
The English empire is finished may see rest in peace 
There are many Australians trying to get rid of the Union jack of our flag, And I am one of them!
with time I will be able to prove that James cook was a fraud, England's greatest explorer with a Portuguese pilot and Spanish and Portuguese maps of the east coast, Hawaiian Islands and most of the
Pacific.
Go get Drakes drum and bang it, cause that's all you have left
Ossy
MORE AND BEYOND OSSY
Bronze Member
http://www.abc.es/20120310/cultura/abcp-infiltrado-destapo-gran-expolio-20120310.html
Claudio for you, Inside informer who worked for Odyssey.
Odyssey is in deep Sh##T
Ossy
Claudio for you, Inside informer who worked for Odyssey.
Odyssey is in deep Sh##T
Ossy
VOC
Sr. Member
Ossy
We dont mind handing back countries that are of no further use to us.
Great Britain had the empire when we needed it and that is all that counts.
At least we left most of the countries democratic, industrialiesed, with education and speaking English.
Our Queen is still head of the Commonwealth and we dont steal coins from legitimate salvors !
We dont mind handing back countries that are of no further use to us.
Great Britain had the empire when we needed it and that is all that counts.
At least we left most of the countries democratic, industrialiesed, with education and speaking English.
Our Queen is still head of the Commonwealth and we dont steal coins from legitimate salvors !
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