Vox veritas
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PDJ said:
PDJ, how reached the load 27-31 miles to the 180 declared by Odyssey?
Odyssey Marine Article...
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PDJ, how reached the load 27-31 miles to the 180 declared by Odyssey?
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Vox veritas
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Jeff K said:
If at 6 in the morning they were 31 miles from the cape, how they reached in 3 hours (9 of the morning) up to 100 miles? It is impossible in three hours to travel 69 miles in 1804.
Vox, I suppose it's possible because approx 30 miles from the cape and approx 100 miles west of the straight being two different points from which to measure can line up to be approx the same location. Either way, from the descriptions of accounts and what Jeff provided, your wreck (Vox) is not the same as Odyssey's. Which begs the question that pirate diver asked earlier to you -- "What did you find that makes you think you found it?" (The Mercedes)
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Vox veritas
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PDJ, looking at the news of 2007 is not clear if the recovery happened at 100 or 180 nautical miles west of Gibraltar. This is very important to know and to give an opinion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Swan_Project
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Swan_Project
I think Jeff was referencing a court document from 08'. I don't know that I would base my opinion on news from 07'. Gibraltar is even further east than the straight so maybe that measurement is close too? The straight itself is about 36miles long. Either way, I don't know. What I do know -- is it's too deep for anyone to have dove unless you have a submarine.
Vox veritas
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PDJ said:
PDJ. This is the historical information about the lost of the Mercedes.
6 AM. Diego Alvear, frigate Medea. North, 14º East of the Monchique mountain. At 6.30 o'clock AM from the frigate Clara 3 sails were recognized to the first quadrant. At 8 o'clock AM recognized to be 4. They continued navigating with direction ENE.
6 AM. Miguel Zapiain, frigate Fame: Monchique mountain to the NNE, distant 7 leagues (21 nautical miles). At 6.30 o'clock AM recognized 4 sails to the NE.
6 AM. Graham Moore: Santa María cape, to the NE, distant 9 leagues (27 nautical miles) but personally I think that they were to 6 leagues (18 n.m.)
9 AM. Diego Alvear: Monte Figo (north of the Santa Maria cape) NE, 5º with the whole coast visible.
It challenges to demonstrates me with accustomed arguments that the Mercedes is at more than 50 miles from the coast.
Vox veritas
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bradyboy
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MORE AND BEYOND OSSY
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Have a look at this site : historyhuntersinternational.org/index.php go to Odyssey Marine Exploration and the Mercedes
and get the full story. Military naval mission has nothing to do with cargo or manifests.
Military missions, particularly naval missions, are determined by order's issued by the state's naval command to her naval assets,
such documents, in the case of the Mercedes, have been made public by the kingdom of Spain.
Have a look also at , The Spanish frigate Nuestra Senora DE Mercedes and the soul of the Monroe Doctrine.
Contrary to Odysseys representation that there is " an actual absence of a vessel at the site, Odyssey's own photographs and video of the site show the remains of a
Spanish warship of the time of the Mercedes !
Ossy
and get the full story. Military naval mission has nothing to do with cargo or manifests.
Military missions, particularly naval missions, are determined by order's issued by the state's naval command to her naval assets,
such documents, in the case of the Mercedes, have been made public by the kingdom of Spain.
Have a look also at , The Spanish frigate Nuestra Senora DE Mercedes and the soul of the Monroe Doctrine.
Contrary to Odysseys representation that there is " an actual absence of a vessel at the site, Odyssey's own photographs and video of the site show the remains of a
Spanish warship of the time of the Mercedes !
Ossy
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MORE AND BEYOND OSSY said:
Ossy, unfortunately - the site that you are referring to has been found to be extremely unreliable and biased. Furthermore, The two principals of that site Soloman and Diving Doc, have been banned from TreasureNet for multiple forum rules violations.
I would not ever use that site as a reference for any alleged factual information.
Tom
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Odyssey itself 'holds proof that treasure is Spanish'
‘NUESTRA SEÑORA IS OURS’ – SPAIN
By Brian Reyes
Spain yesterday accused Odyssey Marine Exploration of stripping valuable treasure from a sunken Spanish warship and claimed the company’s own evidence proved this. In a lengthy court filing in Florida, lawyers for Madrid asked a federal judge to dismiss Odyssey’s claim over the site and the treasure.
Hundreds of thousands of coins and historical items should be returned to Spain and thecompany should be disqualified from receiving any compensation, the Spanish lawyers argued.
“Wilful ignorance and misrepresentations should not be encouraged by granting a salvage award in this case,” they said.
This was the latest turn in the long-running saga over the Black Swan treasure, which Odyssey flew from Gibraltar to the US amid great controversy last year.
In its court filing, Spain was trying to demonstrate that the coins came from a Spanish warship called Nuestra Señora de la Mercedes and that its remains were protected by the principle of sovereign immunity.
Spain had never abandoned the wreck and Odyssey had no permission to work there, Spain’s lawyers said in the 36-page document.
“Odyssey’s pending claims in this case seek to assert rights over the shipwreck of a warship of the Royal Spanish Navy,” they said.
“The gravesite of military personnel who died in the service of their nation may not be subjected to unauthorized and covert exploitation for private profit, as Odyssey well knows.”
In the document, Spain refuted Odyssey’s claim that there is no evidence of an actual wreck at the Black Swan site.
According to Spain, photographs taken by the company show wooden structures, debris and artefacts commonly associated with a shipwreck.
Spain also said many of the items recovered from the seabed match the cargo that was known to be on board the Mercedes when it sailed from Callao, in Peru, on its fateful voyage to Spain.
The arguments are at sharp odds with Odyssey’s own assessment of the evidence.
The company has always maintained that there is no wreckage at the site and that there is insufficient evidence to link the coins to any ship in particular. It has also strongly defended its operations and insisted that they comply fully with all relevant laws.
“I have found Spain’s filing deceptive and disingenuous,” said Ali Nesser, Odyssey’s director of international relations.
“There are statements contained in the motion and it’s accompanying documents which are outright false.”
“Odyssey has done everything in this case according to all proper legal and archaeological protocols and to say otherwise is deceptive and infla-mmatory.” “In any case, the motion fails to address some of the most important legal issues including the commercial mission of the Mercedes, as well as the privately owned cargo aboard and the potential rights of other claimants.” Odyssey now has until November to reply to the Spanish case.
‘NUESTRA SEÑORA IS OURS’ – SPAIN
By Brian Reyes
Spain yesterday accused Odyssey Marine Exploration of stripping valuable treasure from a sunken Spanish warship and claimed the company’s own evidence proved this. In a lengthy court filing in Florida, lawyers for Madrid asked a federal judge to dismiss Odyssey’s claim over the site and the treasure.
Hundreds of thousands of coins and historical items should be returned to Spain and thecompany should be disqualified from receiving any compensation, the Spanish lawyers argued.
“Wilful ignorance and misrepresentations should not be encouraged by granting a salvage award in this case,” they said.
This was the latest turn in the long-running saga over the Black Swan treasure, which Odyssey flew from Gibraltar to the US amid great controversy last year.
In its court filing, Spain was trying to demonstrate that the coins came from a Spanish warship called Nuestra Señora de la Mercedes and that its remains were protected by the principle of sovereign immunity.
Spain had never abandoned the wreck and Odyssey had no permission to work there, Spain’s lawyers said in the 36-page document.
“Odyssey’s pending claims in this case seek to assert rights over the shipwreck of a warship of the Royal Spanish Navy,” they said.
“The gravesite of military personnel who died in the service of their nation may not be subjected to unauthorized and covert exploitation for private profit, as Odyssey well knows.”
In the document, Spain refuted Odyssey’s claim that there is no evidence of an actual wreck at the Black Swan site.
According to Spain, photographs taken by the company show wooden structures, debris and artefacts commonly associated with a shipwreck.
Spain also said many of the items recovered from the seabed match the cargo that was known to be on board the Mercedes when it sailed from Callao, in Peru, on its fateful voyage to Spain.
The arguments are at sharp odds with Odyssey’s own assessment of the evidence.
The company has always maintained that there is no wreckage at the site and that there is insufficient evidence to link the coins to any ship in particular. It has also strongly defended its operations and insisted that they comply fully with all relevant laws.
“I have found Spain’s filing deceptive and disingenuous,” said Ali Nesser, Odyssey’s director of international relations.
“There are statements contained in the motion and it’s accompanying documents which are outright false.”
“Odyssey has done everything in this case according to all proper legal and archaeological protocols and to say otherwise is deceptive and infla-mmatory.” “In any case, the motion fails to address some of the most important legal issues including the commercial mission of the Mercedes, as well as the privately owned cargo aboard and the potential rights of other claimants.” Odyssey now has until November to reply to the Spanish case.
Amona
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It's sad to read an article like this one. 
If I would own Odyssey company,that trouble wouldn't happen to me because I don't suffer of greed, I learned since I was a child to "share the cake" with others specialty when that cake has been prepared and owned for others before than me.Actually, this is the principal of the problem that we're living here in EU, mortgage crisis, Fed reserve high interest,etc,etc.making almost impossible to live happy, because somebody wants your money(counties,state,Fed,banks,etc,)
It's my opinion
Amona
If I would own Odyssey company,that trouble wouldn't happen to me because I don't suffer of greed, I learned since I was a child to "share the cake" with others specialty when that cake has been prepared and owned for others before than me.Actually, this is the principal of the problem that we're living here in EU, mortgage crisis, Fed reserve high interest,etc,etc.making almost impossible to live happy, because somebody wants your money(counties,state,Fed,banks,etc,)It's my opinion
Amona
Amona said:
Amona,
Are you sure you don't live here in the USA? That sounds mighty like us!
Seriously,
I had not realized that the Mercedes had sailed directly from Peru to(wards) Spain. Does anybody know how common this was, and what route she would have taken ?(via the Magellan Strait, I assume).
I thought that most treasure went from Callao to Panama and then overland for onward shipment to Spain, but maybe that was not still the case by 1804.
Mariner
Amona
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yes I live here in EU but maybe you missed my point.
Amona
Amona
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jeff
I said "Sardinera" because is my favorite place to camp when I go to that island but that doesn't mean I live there because is a "wildlife santuary".If I could, I would live there.
Amona
MORE AND BEYOND OSSY
Bronze Member
Amona I,m with you, I'd prefer to live on the Island and get away from the rat race ! 
Jeff thanks for the Info you keep posting, Do you know when the court will make a decision on the Mercedes.
I still can't understand how a US court can make a decision on, as Odyssey say! international waters
Shouldn't an international court make the decision ? Maybe that's why the US is in trouble it has it's finger in
to many pie's.
The US coughs and Australia catches a cold.
Ossy
Jeff thanks for the Info you keep posting, Do you know when the court will make a decision on the Mercedes.
I still can't understand how a US court can make a decision on, as Odyssey say! international waters
Shouldn't an international court make the decision ? Maybe that's why the US is in trouble it has it's finger in
to many pie's.
The US coughs and Australia catches a cold.
Ossy
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