Odyssey Marine Article...

[architecad]

Any way to know a little more about this hearing?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/05/24/national/a110500D46.DTL

Thanks Jeff.
Very Interesting " They recovered firearm remnants and 18 CANNONS " can you verify that Jeff.
US justice Department Attorneys said " The court can and must direct that the loot, be returned to Spain "
Makes it hard when your own Government isn't on your side, But I think there looking at the big picture.
Ossy

Ossy, It seems that even one U.S. Judge believes that this case about about Money and not much else. As I said, once before. Nothing but Greed and I don't mean on Odyssey's part.

Greed is in both side of the coin, Spain and Odyssey but Spain has a legitimate position. Spain made those coin and they lost them. At that time, they lost the hope to make some recover. Also, they didn't know the exact location because no GPS at that time. Now, Odyssey find the coins with new technology and Spain say "Hey, I own those coin."

Arch

 

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[jeff k]

Any way to know a little more about this hearing?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/05/24/national/a110500D46.DTL

Thanks Jeff.
Very Interesting " They recovered firearm remnants and 18 CANNONS " can you verify that Jeff.
US justice Department Attorneys said " The court can and must direct that the loot, be returned to Spain "
Makes it hard when your own Government isn't on your side, But I think there looking at the big picture.
Ossy

They didn't recover any canons. Somebody got that wrong. They did recover part of a trigger guard.

 

[architecad]

Any way to know a little more about this hearing?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/05/24/national/a110500D46.DTL

Thanks Jeff.
Very Interesting " They recovered firearm remnants and 18 CANNONS " can you verify that Jeff.
US justice Department Attorneys said " The court can and must direct that the loot, be returned to Spain "
Makes it hard when your own Government isn't on your side, But I think there looking at the big picture.
Ossy

They didn't recover any canons. Somebody got that wrong. They did recover part of a triger guard.

Well, I think they found the most important!!

Arch

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Someone posted the following on the Yahoo forum. The parts I liked are in bold letters.


Ahoy mates:

I had the good fortune to attend oral arguments in Atlanta this morning. Thought I would summarize my impressions for the group, but please note that I couldn't have any electronics devices in court so couldn't transcribe the hearing contemporaneously; therefore it is possible this report may contain omissions or errors (and it certainly contains my subjective views). Moreover, when I "quote" a judge's comments, I am paraphrasing to the best of my recollection.

The panel was Hull, Black, and Stapleton (Stapleton was visiting judge from 3rd Circuit). I was glad to see Judge Black on the panel because she is the author of Aqua Log, an 11th Circuit case that came out after the district court ruled here, and one that is the focal point of OMEX's briefs.

All three judges were very attentive and engaged. While they had clarifying questions to ask of all parties, they seemed much more skeptical of Spain's position than OMEX's, and I came away with the distinct impression that OMEX is likely to prevail. Judge Hull asked pointed questions of Spain, positing hypotheticals such as "assume we find clear error in that the ship was on a commercial voyage, not a military mission as found below, doesn't that kill your (Spain)'s case?" (paraphrase, not quote). Spain counsel tried to dance around the issues and divert, frustrating the panel, with Judge Hull commenting "you're very good at avoiding my questions" at one point. More significantly (I thought), Judge Stapleton, towards the end of Spain's presentation, said "I just have to ask about the elephant in the room here. The district court said it lacked jurisdiction yet nonetheless assumed jurisdiction by awarding the res to Spain. Why isn't that error?" To this Spain tried in vain to appease the panel (IMO) --- the panel seemed (to me) convinced that the proper course would have been to restore the status quo --- the district court, if it lacked jurisdiction to hear the case, certainly lacked jurisdiction to award the res to Spain. OMEX did not face similar antagonism/hostility in the questions posited to it, in my view.

There were other arguments made (including smaller amounts of time allocated to Peru and some individual claimants), and in my view OMEX got the better of these as well. I noticed some folks in the gallery (btw, the gallery was packed, I would estimate 100 spectators including 2 sailors from the Spanish navy donning official uniforms!) who were apparently with OMEX seemed quite happy with how the hearing went.

I may be able to expand more later -- arguments lasted over an hour I believe -- but I have to catch a train and head back home for now. I wanted to just give the group my take on the arguments before I have to take off.

In summary, I thought it went very well for OMEX, and I have added OMEX shares upon reflecting on how it all went. I think it's difficult to read the tea leaves in arguments like these, but I'm glad I went and feel OMEX did a very good job, and was well received by the judges. I did not hear the judges give any indication of when a ruling would issue, but hopefully we don't have to wait long.

Toodles,
Bruce

Some are arguing it was not a military mission, When their was clearly written order's that the goods go under royal naval protection.
When the English fired shots over the bow at another country's Navel war ship, and then engaged in deadly force ! It was an act of War.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/act+of+war
An act of aggression by a country against another with which it is nominally at peace"
At that Instant it became military!
Ossy

 

[old man]

Any way to know a little more about this hearing?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/05/24/national/a110500D46.DTL

Thanks Jeff.
Very Interesting " They recovered firearm remnants and 18 CANNONS " can you verify that Jeff.
US justice Department Attorneys said " The court can and must direct that the loot, be returned to Spain "
Makes it hard when your own Government isn't on your side, But I think there looking at the big picture.
Ossy

Ossy, It seems that even one U.S. Judge believes that this case about about Money and not much else. As I said, once before. Nothing but Greed and I don't mean on Odyssey's part.

Greed is in both side of the coin, Spain and Odyssey but Spain has a legitimate position. Spain made those coin and they lost them. At that time, they lost the hope to make some recover. Also, they didn't know the exact location because no GPS at that time. Now, Odyssey find the coins with new technology and Spain say "Hey, I own those coin."

Arch

Arch, How in the Sam Hill can you say Odyssey is motivated by Greed Odyssey worked their butts off, spent a small fortune and found what they were looking for. I was brought up to understand that a person that did a days job was suppose to get a days wages. As I see it, that is exactly what Odyssey did and before I hear about all the money they could get for the coins and it is more then a wage earner normally gets? Guess what, the crew got paid and the owners are entitled to what is left, just like any other Big Company.

 

[jeff k]

Ossy... The Spanish fired the first shot, and then they blew themselves up.

The force of the blast blew apart of one of her quarterdeck guns into the Amphion’s rigging.7

7 The Naval Chronicle for 1804, at 500. (Doc. 131, Ex. D, Annex 6.) The British
attributed the cause of the massive explosion to the Spanish Navy’s "dangerous method of
loading their guns, which is by a shell from a cask where the powder is kept loose." Id.

 

[Saturna]

I don't think that fact and reality play a big part in the pro-Spanish side of the debate.

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Ossy... The Spanish fired the first shot, and then they blew themselves up.

The force of the blast blew apart of one of her quarterdeck guns into the Amphion’s rigging.7

7 The Naval Chronicle for 1804, at 500. (Doc. 131, Ex. D, Annex 6.) The British
attributed the cause of the massive explosion to the Spanish Navy’s "dangerous method of
loading their guns, which is by a shell from a cask where the powder is kept loose." Id.

Moore ordered Shots be fired across their bows first !!! Basically stop or will fire at you!
Can you image a US war ship with another country firing shot over its bow
What do you think would happen
It's a good point, hard to argue.
Ossy

 

[Vox veritas]

Ossy... The Spanish fired the first shot, and then they blew themselves up.

The force of the blast blew apart of one of her quarterdeck guns into the Amphion’s rigging.7

7 The Naval Chronicle for 1804, at 500. (Doc. 131, Ex. D, Annex 6.) The British
attributed the cause of the massive explosion to the Spanish Navy’s "dangerous method of
loading their guns, which is by a shell from a cask where the powder is kept loose." Id.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~pbtyc/Naval_History/Vol_III/Vol_III_P_281.htm

Cheers VV

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Ossy... The Spanish fired the first shot, and then they blew themselves up.

The force of the blast blew apart of one of her quarterdeck guns into the Amphion’s rigging.7

7 The Naval Chronicle for 1804, at 500. (Doc. 131, Ex. D, Annex 6.) The British
attributed the cause of the massive explosion to the Spanish Navy’s "dangerous method of
loading their guns, which is by a shell from a cask where the powder is kept loose." Id.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~pbtyc/Naval_History/Vol_III/Vol_III_P_281.htm

Cheers VV

Looks very clear to me Jeff !! ACT OF WAR !!!! Military Action.
Ossy

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Ossy... The Spanish fired the first shot, and then they blew themselves up.

The force of the blast blew apart of one of her quarterdeck guns into the Amphion’s rigging.7

7 The Naval Chronicle for 1804, at 500. (Doc. 131, Ex. D, Annex 6.) The British
attributed the cause of the massive explosion to the Spanish Navy’s "dangerous method of
loading their guns, which is by a shell from a cask where the powder is kept loose." Id.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~pbtyc/Naval_History/Vol_III/Vol_III_P_281.htm

Cheers VV

Looks very clear to me Jeff !! ACT OF WAR !!!! Military Action.
Ossy

But that does not make it the legal definition of a warship. The private paying passengers and private cargo makes it a commercial ship by case law...

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Ossy... The Spanish fired the first shot, and then they blew themselves up.

The force of the blast blew apart of one of her quarterdeck guns into the Amphion’s rigging.7

7 The Naval Chronicle for 1804, at 500. (Doc. 131, Ex. D, Annex 6.) The British
attributed the cause of the massive explosion to the Spanish Navy’s "dangerous method of
loading their guns, which is by a shell from a cask where the powder is kept loose." Id.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~pbtyc/Naval_History/Vol_III/Vol_III_P_281.htm

Cheers VV

Looks very clear to me Jeff !! ACT OF WAR !!!! Military Action.
Ossy

But that does not make it the legal definition of a warship. The private paying passengers and private cargo makes it a commercial ship by case law...

But at that Point, it changed ! The Military took full control. Merchant ships don't carry cannons, and have working military officers on
board.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

AhAH ossy mi compadre, you posted -->Merchant ships don't carry cannons,
************
Ah but they did, and in certain parts, still do. In fact, just what did the convoys consist of in WW-2? Armed Merchant ships, with military gunners on board.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

AhAH ossy mi compadre, you posted -->Merchant ships don't carry cannons,
************
Ah but they did, and in certain parts, still do. In fact, just what did the convoys consist of in WW-2? Armed Merchant ships, with military gunners on board.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Hola Jose, Yes but they were at war at the time. Any example of merchant ship's in the early 1800 carrying guns.

 

[Vox veritas]

English Commodore's orders were to save bloodshed Spanish ships had to follow them to a British port. Such a proposal "in time of peace" is simple piracy. The fight was inevitable! It was an act of war between warships.
VV

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Buenas tardes VOX: You posted --> English Commodore's orders were to save bloodshed Spanish ships had to follow them to a British port. Such a proposal "in time of peace" is simple piracy
************
Hmm you mean like Spain did to Odyssey marine's ship?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Ossy... The Spanish fired the first shot, and then they blew themselves up.

The force of the blast blew apart of one of her quarterdeck guns into the Amphion’s rigging.7

7 The Naval Chronicle for 1804, at 500. (Doc. 131, Ex. D, Annex 6.) The British
attributed the cause of the massive explosion to the Spanish Navy’s "dangerous method of
loading their guns, which is by a shell from a cask where the powder is kept loose." Id.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~pbtyc/Naval_History/Vol_III/Vol_III_P_281.htm

Cheers VV

Looks very clear to me Jeff !! ACT OF WAR !!!! Military Action.
Ossy

But that does not make it the legal definition of a warship. The private paying passengers and private cargo makes it a commercial ship by case law...

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/warship
WARSHIP: a government ship that is available for waging war !!! You don't get more available than a Royal Navy Frigate.
Ossy

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Buenas tardes VOX: You posted --> English Commodore's orders were to save bloodshed Spanish ships had to follow them to a British port. Such a proposal "in time of peace" is simple piracy
************
Hmm you mean like Spain did to Odyssey marine's ship?

Don Jose de La Mancha

Don Jose, you have had to much Tequila How can you compare that situation

 

[Au_Dreamers]

AhAH ossy mi compadre, you posted -->Merchant ships don't carry cannons,
************
Ah but they did, and in certain parts, still do. In fact, just what did the convoys consist of in WW-2? Armed Merchant ships, with military gunners on board.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Hola Jose, Yes but they were at war at the time. Any example of merchant ship's in the early 1800 carrying guns.

Here's 4 examples...

the Mercedes, the Clara, the Medea, and the Fama

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

AhAH ossy mi compadre, you posted -->Merchant ships don't carry cannons,
************
Ah but they did, and in certain parts, still do. In fact, just what did the convoys consist of in WW-2? Armed Merchant ships, with military gunners on board.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Hola Jose, Yes but they were at war at the time. Any example of merchant ship's in the early 1800 carrying guns.

Here's 4 examples...

the Mercedes, the Clara, the Medea, and the Fama

You got the ship part right