Odyssey Marine Article...
- Thread starter jeff k
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MORE AND BEYOND OSSY said:
Ossy, No! not kidding at all...
Irregardless if it is a Flagged Royal Navel War Ship or not, that is for the courts to decide, and we will all have to sit back and wait on the decision of the judge. I have no doubt that Odyssey will honer the decision of the court if Spain wins it's legal challenge concerning ownership. Just as I am sure Spain will honor the decision of the court as well.
Why should Odyssey have any obligation to invite the Spanish government as a partner to recover a unknown shipwreck in international waters? Even if Odyssey had a reasonable suspicion that the ship may be Spanish, they are under no legal obligation to do anything with Spain. There obligation is to follow international law (as they did), than recover the artifacts and protect there investment (as they did). They secured a legal arrest of the site, and have done everything by the book. They have gone above and beyond in the area of documentation and Archeology work at the site. Spain has a legal right and obligation to its own cultural heritage to challenge Odyssey in court, and they have. The process is the process. It does not make Spain any more a villain than Odyssey in this case.
The point I was making was that Odyssey, may have been inclined to invite Spain to be involved in the recovery of this suspected historic Spanish ship out of simple courtesy. However, since Spain had insisted on obstructing Odysseys attempt to recover an equally important UK shipwreck in International waters, I can see why Odyssey would not even consider contacting Spain in this matter, and keeping the recovery secret until the artifacts and Spice were secure in a safe location. Judging by Spains heavyhanded response to the news of the amount of Treasure recovered, I think Odyssey made some very sound business decisions in this matter.
I must be missing something! How has Odyssey hurt the Treasure Hunters world? Other than treasure hunters wanting to work in Spain or in Spanish waters, I just don't see it. It is apparent to me that Odyssey has made professional treasure hunting respectable, and has showed that the Private industry can work with archaeologist to recover and preserve the past.
I am sure that Odyssey will be back in International waters off of Gibraltar as soon as that legal issue is resolved.
Tom
MORE AND BEYOND OSSY
Bronze Member
wreckdiver1715, Tom hope you are well, I noticed your in Afghanistan, stay safe.
Your argument "unknown shipwreck does not go with Odyssey own admission with their new Discovery
series Quote " We reseach every target, we know what where looking for " The Lady of the Mercedes is well
documented, they had done their home work years earlier, They can play dumb, But as they keep saying
they are the world leader in this field, when they go looking for the Sussex they knew what their looking
for, Plus have many more targets they have researched.
I,m sorry you think I keep picking on Odyssey but the way they flew out the coins as fast as could
plus put a value of only 4 million dollars on their paper work shows they had something to hide.
It is wishful thinking if Odyssey thinks it will be around the waters off Gibraltar, you know what happen
last time!
The sinking of the Mercedes was an unprovoked act of war by the British, they killed hundreds
and then captured the other two ships for their booty.
Spain does not give two hoots about the coins its what it means to the Spanish people, I hope you can see through the dollars and cents. What is it really worth ? take the history away and its only metal value.
Read Spains response to Odyssey its all there. The judge looks at facts not hearsay.
Sam
Your argument "unknown shipwreck does not go with Odyssey own admission with their new Discovery
series Quote " We reseach every target, we know what where looking for " The Lady of the Mercedes is well
documented, they had done their home work years earlier, They can play dumb, But as they keep saying
they are the world leader in this field, when they go looking for the Sussex they knew what their looking
for, Plus have many more targets they have researched.
I,m sorry you think I keep picking on Odyssey but the way they flew out the coins as fast as could
plus put a value of only 4 million dollars on their paper work shows they had something to hide.
It is wishful thinking if Odyssey thinks it will be around the waters off Gibraltar, you know what happen
last time!
The sinking of the Mercedes was an unprovoked act of war by the British, they killed hundreds
and then captured the other two ships for their booty.
Spain does not give two hoots about the coins its what it means to the Spanish people, I hope you can see through the dollars and cents. What is it really worth ? take the history away and its only metal value.
Read Spains response to Odyssey its all there. The judge looks at facts not hearsay.
Sam
MORE AND BEYOND OSSY
Bronze Member
Very nice Jeff, Looks like win win for Odyssey and the British, awesome cannons they should come up like
new, It will be interesting what deal they do, It could set a new bench mark. It will also be interesting to
see how the human remains are handled
Ossy
new, It will be interesting what deal they do, It could set a new bench mark. It will also be interesting to
see how the human remains are handled
Ossy
diverlynn
Hero Member
Peruvian FM to Hire Lawyers to Recover Treasure
Lima, Jan 30 (Prensa Latina)
The Peruvian government will hire a lawyer to defend its interests in a dispute in the United States over possession of the treasure seized by a US company from a Spanish galleon that sank in 1804.
The Foreign Ministry issued a resolution on the dispute between Spain and the company Odyssey Marine Exploration, which found the remains of the ship and seized 17 tons in silver coins and other treasures.
The 400-million-euro treasure came from Peru, which was the richest viceroyalty in the Spanish colonies at the time.
The galleon "Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes" set sail from the Peruvian port of Callao to the Spanish port of Cadiz, and was sunken by British warships on October 5, 1804, near Cape Santa Maria, off Portugal's coast.
Spain has filed a lawsuit to claim the treasure, but Lima claims that the cargo came from the Viceroyalty of Peru, so it belongs to the current Peruvian republic.
Lima, Jan 30 (Prensa Latina)
The Peruvian government will hire a lawyer to defend its interests in a dispute in the United States over possession of the treasure seized by a US company from a Spanish galleon that sank in 1804.
The Foreign Ministry issued a resolution on the dispute between Spain and the company Odyssey Marine Exploration, which found the remains of the ship and seized 17 tons in silver coins and other treasures.
The 400-million-euro treasure came from Peru, which was the richest viceroyalty in the Spanish colonies at the time.
The galleon "Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes" set sail from the Peruvian port of Callao to the Spanish port of Cadiz, and was sunken by British warships on October 5, 1804, near Cape Santa Maria, off Portugal's coast.
Spain has filed a lawsuit to claim the treasure, but Lima claims that the cargo came from the Viceroyalty of Peru, so it belongs to the current Peruvian republic.
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- #486
sabre15
Sr. Member
Great, lets allow all our heritage and artifacts to rot away on the seabed floor and disintegrate everytime a storm or fishing trawler passes by instead of allowing us to bring our finds to the people to share the past. These idiot archaeologist have no clue, whats the point of allowing it to sit there to a point it basically erodes away, so in a few more hundred years we can all pretend our past never happened. Ask my grandfather if he wants Auschwitz just covered up or if he wants people to keep artifacts to remind people it really happened, which it did. Let these archaeologist study in the classroom and keep them out of the real world as they have no clue to how things really are in the real world!
rgecy
Bronze Member
It will be interesting to see what Odyssey does. This is a very historic find and will be another feather in Odysseys hat. I would think that they would be going out of their way to make sure this was done right.
Robert
Robert
G.I.B.
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MORE AND BEYOND OSSY said:
I'm not picking a fight here, just a question...
Should this be true, and it's a historical interest only- then why is Spain uninterested in historic vessels not carrying treasure? I mean, they don't appear to be too concerned about vessels that have no large monetary value. I am sure that Odyssey would be happy to have Spain pay them for research and recovery of lots of historic sites. Odyssey can't eat the cost of recovery without someone footing the bill.
I firmly believe it's all about the money, for everyone concerned.
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MORE AND BEYOND OSSY said:
Ossy, Thanks my friend, we had yet another car bomb go off in Kabul today, but so far so good, the Taliban will have to try allot harder before they can get me.
Remember that Odyssey Marine believe the ship that they found could in fact be the Merchant Royal, A British ship, and they were actively looking for, and would not know the ships identity until further investigation. There are estimates of more than 800 shipwrecks in this general location, and there is no way to determine the identity with any degree of certainty until further archaeological investigation was completed. To say that Odyssey knew for sure that this wreck was the Mercedes, and should have obtained Spains permission is just a little far fetched in my opinion.
Knowing a little bit about history and Napoleon's promises to Spain, do you really think it fair to say that the sinking of the Mercedes was an unprovoked attack by the British?
I can see through the dollars and cents on this, and I doubt very much if the Spanish Government would be at all interested in this legal battle if there weren't allot of Dollars and Cents up for grabs. That's allot of money!
MORE AND BEYOND OSSY
Bronze Member
I totally disagree with you Guy in the back.
The so called $500 million on coins that are badly worn and all Identical ( machine made ) not cobs
Will be lucky to be worth $20 million, now a country like Spain the 8th largest economy in the world
would worry about this amount ! It's like peeing in the ocean it won't make a difference.
It about national pride, It's about having a Spanish flagged war ship looted with major historical importance.
Theirs no difference with the discovery of the flagged war ship the victory, why is Odyssey handling this
any different
O that's right no Gold or silver, bronze cannons worth $250,000 US, Yea right !
as if the English are going to let Odyssey have them !
And Guy in the back it's a good question I hope I make some sense and I really enjoy this post
It's always good to see the other side and have an intelligent discusion
Ossy
The so called $500 million on coins that are badly worn and all Identical ( machine made ) not cobs
Will be lucky to be worth $20 million, now a country like Spain the 8th largest economy in the world
would worry about this amount ! It's like peeing in the ocean it won't make a difference.
It about national pride, It's about having a Spanish flagged war ship looted with major historical importance.
Theirs no difference with the discovery of the flagged war ship the victory, why is Odyssey handling this
any different
O that's right no Gold or silver, bronze cannons worth $250,000 US, Yea right !as if the English are going to let Odyssey have them !
And Guy in the back it's a good question I hope I make some sense and I really enjoy this post
It's always good to see the other side and have an intelligent discusion
Ossy
Salvor6
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Guy In Back, I agree with you. Spain is only interested in wrecks with money on board. Here is a perfect example: The University of W. Florida found two of Tristan de Luna's ships that sank in 1559 of the W. coast of Florida. These are historically important to Spain but there is no treasure on board so Spain does not want anything to do with the wrecks. UWF excavated one wreck they call the Emanuel Point wreck and found lots of artifacts but no treasure and no protest from Spain.
Vox veritas
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To compare the atrocities of Auschwitz with the current discussion is not only uncalled for, but an injustice for the millions of Jews (and others) that did suffer. 
[/quote]
SWR, my father was deported from Italy to Germany for banal reasons. The serious question is: who financed Hitler? Look for the answer and you will know the truth !! The official history always counts us part of the truth, the other part is for the flock of idiots.
[/quote]
SWR, my father was deported from Italy to Germany for banal reasons. The serious question is: who financed Hitler? Look for the answer and you will know the truth !! The official history always counts us part of the truth, the other part is for the flock of idiots.
- Thread starter
- #494
Wreck of renowned British warship found in Channel
By MITCH STACY, Associated Press
TAMPA, Fla. – Florida deep-sea explorers who found $500 million in sunken treasure two years ago say they have discovered another prized shipwreck: A legendary British man-of-war that sank in the English Channel 264 years ago.
Odyssey Marine Exploration hasn't found any gold this time, but it's looking for an even bigger jackpot. The company's research indicates the HMS Victory was carrying 4 tons of gold coins that could be worth considerably more than the treasure that Odyssey raised from a sunken Spanish galleon in 2007, co-founder Greg Stemm said ahead of a news conference set for Monday in London.
So far, Odyssey has recovered two brass cannons from the wreck of the Victory and continues to examine and map the debris field, which lies about 330 feet beneath the surface, Stemm said. The company said it is negotiating with the British government over collaborating on the project.
"This is a big one, just because of the history," Stemm said. "Very rarely do you solve an age-old mystery like this."
Odyssey said the 31 brass cannons and other evidence on the wreck allowed definitive identification of the HMS Victory, 175-foot sailing ship that was separated from its fleet during a storm and sank in the English Channel on Oct. 4, 1744, with at least 900 men aboard. The ship was the largest and, with 110 brass cannons, the most heavily armed vessel of its day. It was the inspiration for the HMS Victory famously commanded by Adm. Horatio Nelson decades later.
Odyssey was searching for other valuable shipwrecks in the English Channel when it came across the Victory. Stemm wouldn't say exactly where the ship was found for fear of attracting plunderers, though he said it wasn't close to where it was expected to be.
"We found this more than 50 miles from where anybody would have thought it went down," Stemm said. Federal court records filed by Odyssey in Tampa seeking the exclusive salvage rights said the site is 25 to 40 miles from the English coast, outside of its territorial waters.
A Ministry of Defense spokesman said Sunday the government was aware of Odyssey's claim to have found the Victory.
"Assuming the wreck is indeed that of a British warship, her remains are sovereign immune," he said on condition of anonymity in keeping with government policy. "This means that no intrusive action may be taken without the express consent of the United Kingdom."
He would not say whether the government had begun talks with Odyssey over the future of the find.
Newspapers of the day and other historical records analyzed by the company indicated that the Victory sank off the Channel Island of Alderney near Cherbourg, France. A 1991 British postage stamp depicts the Victory crashing on the rocks there. Pieces of the ship had washed up in various places, but its final resting place had remained a mystery.
The belief that the Victory had crashed onto the rocks had marred an otherwise exemplary service record of the ship's commander, Sir John Balchin, and a lighthouse keeper on Alderney was prosecuted for failing to keep the light on. Odyssey believes the discovery exonerates both men.
"As far as the family is concerned, it is an astonishing revelation," said Robert Balchin, a 66-year-old British university administrator and direct descendant of the commander. "It's as if he's sort of come alive again.
"When I went to see this extraordinary find of the cannon with the coat of arms of the king on the side, it was really a wonderful feeling to know that Sir John Balchin saw that every day, and it brought a very special communion with the past."
The HMS Victory was returning from Lisbon, Portugal, and was probably transporting 100,000 gold Portuguese coins for merchants, according to Odyssey's research. The ship had sailed there to help rescue a Mediterranean convoy blockaded by the French in the River Tagus at Lisbon.
The wreck site is roughly 70 feet by 200 feet and littered with other debris, Odyssey said. Its research ship, Odyssey Explorer, is equipped with a remote underwater robot capable of carefully removing the smallest of items from the bottom and shooting high-resolution photos and video.
Odyssey, a publicly traded corporation, announced in May 2007 that it had raised 17 tons of silver coins from an Atlantic Ocean shipwreck. The company later said it believed the wreck to be the Spanish galleon Nuestra Senora de las Mercedes y las Animas, which sank off Portugal in 1804.
Shortly afterward, the Spanish government sued Odyssey in federal court in Tampa to claim the treasure, arguing that the shipwreck was never abandoned by Spain. The case is pending.
Some in the Spanish government have called the company 21st-century pirates, and twice in the months after the 2007 announcement, ships from Spain's Civil Guard seized Odyssey ships off the Spanish coast. Both ships and their crews were released within a week.
The company's relationship with the British government has been more cordial. Odyssey had already negotiated an agreement with British officials regarding the search for the HMS Sussex, which sank in the western Mediterranean in 1694 with gold coins aboard.
By MITCH STACY, Associated Press
TAMPA, Fla. – Florida deep-sea explorers who found $500 million in sunken treasure two years ago say they have discovered another prized shipwreck: A legendary British man-of-war that sank in the English Channel 264 years ago.
Odyssey Marine Exploration hasn't found any gold this time, but it's looking for an even bigger jackpot. The company's research indicates the HMS Victory was carrying 4 tons of gold coins that could be worth considerably more than the treasure that Odyssey raised from a sunken Spanish galleon in 2007, co-founder Greg Stemm said ahead of a news conference set for Monday in London.
So far, Odyssey has recovered two brass cannons from the wreck of the Victory and continues to examine and map the debris field, which lies about 330 feet beneath the surface, Stemm said. The company said it is negotiating with the British government over collaborating on the project.
"This is a big one, just because of the history," Stemm said. "Very rarely do you solve an age-old mystery like this."
Odyssey said the 31 brass cannons and other evidence on the wreck allowed definitive identification of the HMS Victory, 175-foot sailing ship that was separated from its fleet during a storm and sank in the English Channel on Oct. 4, 1744, with at least 900 men aboard. The ship was the largest and, with 110 brass cannons, the most heavily armed vessel of its day. It was the inspiration for the HMS Victory famously commanded by Adm. Horatio Nelson decades later.
Odyssey was searching for other valuable shipwrecks in the English Channel when it came across the Victory. Stemm wouldn't say exactly where the ship was found for fear of attracting plunderers, though he said it wasn't close to where it was expected to be.
"We found this more than 50 miles from where anybody would have thought it went down," Stemm said. Federal court records filed by Odyssey in Tampa seeking the exclusive salvage rights said the site is 25 to 40 miles from the English coast, outside of its territorial waters.
A Ministry of Defense spokesman said Sunday the government was aware of Odyssey's claim to have found the Victory.
"Assuming the wreck is indeed that of a British warship, her remains are sovereign immune," he said on condition of anonymity in keeping with government policy. "This means that no intrusive action may be taken without the express consent of the United Kingdom."
He would not say whether the government had begun talks with Odyssey over the future of the find.
Newspapers of the day and other historical records analyzed by the company indicated that the Victory sank off the Channel Island of Alderney near Cherbourg, France. A 1991 British postage stamp depicts the Victory crashing on the rocks there. Pieces of the ship had washed up in various places, but its final resting place had remained a mystery.
The belief that the Victory had crashed onto the rocks had marred an otherwise exemplary service record of the ship's commander, Sir John Balchin, and a lighthouse keeper on Alderney was prosecuted for failing to keep the light on. Odyssey believes the discovery exonerates both men.
"As far as the family is concerned, it is an astonishing revelation," said Robert Balchin, a 66-year-old British university administrator and direct descendant of the commander. "It's as if he's sort of come alive again.
"When I went to see this extraordinary find of the cannon with the coat of arms of the king on the side, it was really a wonderful feeling to know that Sir John Balchin saw that every day, and it brought a very special communion with the past."
The HMS Victory was returning from Lisbon, Portugal, and was probably transporting 100,000 gold Portuguese coins for merchants, according to Odyssey's research. The ship had sailed there to help rescue a Mediterranean convoy blockaded by the French in the River Tagus at Lisbon.
The wreck site is roughly 70 feet by 200 feet and littered with other debris, Odyssey said. Its research ship, Odyssey Explorer, is equipped with a remote underwater robot capable of carefully removing the smallest of items from the bottom and shooting high-resolution photos and video.
Odyssey, a publicly traded corporation, announced in May 2007 that it had raised 17 tons of silver coins from an Atlantic Ocean shipwreck. The company later said it believed the wreck to be the Spanish galleon Nuestra Senora de las Mercedes y las Animas, which sank off Portugal in 1804.
Shortly afterward, the Spanish government sued Odyssey in federal court in Tampa to claim the treasure, arguing that the shipwreck was never abandoned by Spain. The case is pending.
Some in the Spanish government have called the company 21st-century pirates, and twice in the months after the 2007 announcement, ships from Spain's Civil Guard seized Odyssey ships off the Spanish coast. Both ships and their crews were released within a week.
The company's relationship with the British government has been more cordial. Odyssey had already negotiated an agreement with British officials regarding the search for the HMS Sussex, which sank in the western Mediterranean in 1694 with gold coins aboard.
MORE AND BEYOND OSSY
Bronze Member
Gold from merchants, flagged naval war ship, bronze cannons. " Sovereign Immune "
This sounds very familiar.
Ossy
This sounds very familiar.
Ossy
sabre15
Sr. Member
"You need to tone down the name calling and talking down about people whom you do not even know. Archeologists are not idiots, and they do have a clue what is going on. Just because you have a difference of opinion does not entitle you to demeanor a person or their chosen occupation."
Where are you coming from SWR? Arn't you the same person that has a difference of opinion with just about everyone on this forum? I am entitled to whatever I dam well please, I unlike yourself am not afraid to tell these "experts" what I think of their hypocritic field of studies. Maybe instead of just contributing to this forum everyone here should use our numbers to fight these,(yes idiots) before we are too late and become extinct so to speak. We are as right as they may think they are, so either they meet us in the middle or we take the fight to them! It is just a matter of time , if we do not organize soon this way of life will be over for most of us in Florida and eventually everywhere else!
Where are you coming from SWR? Arn't you the same person that has a difference of opinion with just about everyone on this forum? I am entitled to whatever I dam well please, I unlike yourself am not afraid to tell these "experts" what I think of their hypocritic field of studies. Maybe instead of just contributing to this forum everyone here should use our numbers to fight these,(yes idiots) before we are too late and become extinct so to speak. We are as right as they may think they are, so either they meet us in the middle or we take the fight to them! It is just a matter of time , if we do not organize soon this way of life will be over for most of us in Florida and eventually everywhere else!
MORE AND BEYOND OSSY
Bronze Member
SWR 
Back to the Facts, I once asked why Odyssey didn't bring up the Bronze cannons from the Black swan
they took video and blew away sand so the cannons where exposed.
The question still remains, especially if you now look at the Victory discovery, no problem lifting
2 cannons twice the size of the Mercedes
Could it be as the Victory the clear marking on the bronze cannons would clearly show what ship
they came off.
Cheers, Ossy
Back to the Facts, I once asked why Odyssey didn't bring up the Bronze cannons from the Black swan
they took video and blew away sand so the cannons where exposed.
The question still remains, especially if you now look at the Victory discovery, no problem lifting
2 cannons twice the size of the Mercedes
Could it be as the Victory the clear marking on the bronze cannons would clearly show what ship
they came off.
Cheers, Ossy
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4theMoney
Jr. Member
- Nov 1, 2008
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I agree with Ossy that there is a good chance of determining the identity of the Black Swan using other artifacts such as cannon, however, nothing is certain. I also understand the position of Odssey given the position of Spain in the past. They dont seem very cooperative which encourages the behavior odyssey exhibits.....At least that is my view from the sidelines...
I am hopeful that the British will help create an atmosphere of cooperation that will somehow seed future cooperation with others.......of course there is treasure involved........so who knows.........
I am hopeful that the British will help create an atmosphere of cooperation that will somehow seed future cooperation with others.......of course there is treasure involved........so who knows.........
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