Odyssey Marine Article...

Jeff,

I am not saying that the Kingdom of Spain had an interest, I don't know, but you attributed to the Fuggers the claim that the Spanish bank appears to have, and stated that the only owners of the cargo were the captain, some English merchants and the Fuggers. Or did I misunderstand what you said?

quote author=Jeff K link=topic=104286.msg1520356#msg1520356 date=1232246559]
Mariner... From what I can tell, the treasure belonged to a consortium of English merchants, Capt. John Limbrey, and the Fugger banking family.[/quote]

Mariner
 

Mariner... Well, that's all I'm aware of. I can only post what I know, and I did start the sentence with, "From what I can tell." I did include the name of the Spanish banking firm in that post, so I don't know what your problem is. ???
 

Mariner wrote

If I owe you money and I mail it to you, but the payment gets lost on the way, I still owe you the money, wouldn't you agree? The coins still belonged to the Spanish banking house of Escuazola, if you are correct in the information you provided, or to whoever they were acting for in sending the money, depending on their contractual arrangements.
Click to expand...

Mariner don't waist your time arguing with Jeff and others Odyssey's advocate. No matter if you're right, Spain or whoever, for those guys they're wrong unless they have, in the past, some relationship with "England" or "Germany". This is a bad feeling passing it from generation to generation, father to son to grandson,etc. This issue coming before 1492.

By the way, enjoy the live, enjoy tomorrow, inauguration day. :thumbsup:

Arch.
 

Arch, since you live just outside to loop, are you going to post pics of the inauguration tonight?
 

Great post Jeff. That was very interesting, especially the part about "no correlation exists between increased depth and superior site preservation." So the wreck is disintegrating despite being over 2,000 feet deep.
 

Great report Jeff, Odyssey know their stuff. the report did leave out why the Spanish Government
Stopped their project ! Removal of Artifacts and coins ring a bell ! from the Mercedes, Odyssey should not leave out these details if they feel they have done nothing wrong.
I hope Odyssey do work out a deal with the Spanish Government and are allowed to work with a
Spanish team,not only on this site but others. As the report said the site is being destroyed.
Ossy
 

As I have said before, I don't approve of Odyssey having removed all the coins from the wreck, but when the dust has settled, I don't know how many of those coins are needed by institutions/museums for studying. It strikes me that if 10% are provided/sold for academic examination, and the other 90% are sold to finance the next important find, then doesn't everybody win? It's time that archaeologists and salvagers got together, but I am afraid that the UNESCO convention is going to mean the end of responsible recovery as well as the pirates, and that can only reduce the amount of information that we glean from our past. we need to find a means of encouraging responsible recovery and stopping piracy, and I wish that people like Jim Delgado, whom I personally like and have a lot of time for, were working to that end.

Speaking of piracy, a large proportion of the collections at the Smithsonian, British Museum etc were "acquired" in a manner that was far from ethical or to exacting archaeological standards, and most of these institutions are refusing to repatriate these pieces, which include many objects stolen from graves. Of course, they are supposedly not making a profit, but lots of people are making a comfortable living out of these collections, paid for by the taxes of people like me and you.

Mariner
 

mariner said:
As I have said before, I don't approve of Odyssey having removed all the coins from the wreck, but when the dust has settled, I don't know how many of those coins are needed by institutions/museums for studying. It strikes me that if 10% are provided/sold for academic examination, and the other 90% are sold to finance the next important find, then doesn't everybody win? It's time that archaeologists and salvagers got together, but I am afraid that the UNESCO convention is going to mean the end of responsible recovery as well as the pirates, and that can only reduce the amount of information that we glean from our past. we need to find a means of encouraging responsible recovery and stopping piracy, and I wish that people like Jim Delgado, whom I personally like and have a lot of time for, were working to that end.

Speaking of piracy, a large proportion of the collections at the Smithsonian, British Museum etc were "acquired" in a manner that was far from ethical or to exacting archaeological standards, and most of these institutions are refusing to repatriate these pieces, which include many objects stolen from graves. Of course, they are supposedly not making a profit, but lots of people are making a comfortable living out of these collections, paid for by the taxes of people like me and you.

Mariner
Click to expand...

Mariner, as in all the monopolies, will be so that some few ones keep everything and many anything !! And about seeing museums...... we will already speak in a future.
 

MORE AND BEYOND OSSY said:
Mariner, you make some good points, It still doesn't take away Odyssey theft of Spanish property
being from personal Spaniards or crown !
Odyssey is a company and they are there to make money, that is their no 1 goal. they can paint a
Pretty picture all they like, sure there are benefits for the rest of us that get to see these time
capsules come to life again.
I would like to see Spain take control, they could contract Odyssey to bring back so much of this
Spanish history for all to enjoy, but Spain having control not the other way round.
Ossy :icon_sunny:
Click to expand...

Hey Ossy... Are you accusing Odyssey of doing something illegal? The word theft is pretty strong language, and may even be libelous. It's obvious you have no clue as to the Law of the Sea. Spain can cry all they want too, but their laws and jurisdiction only extend 24 nm from their coastline. >:(
 

Jeff,the courts will decide, Spain has never abandoned any of its ships and never will ! What does the law of the sea say
for flagged naval ships, they can twist it around all they like ! We will see what the court does.
and as a Spaniard I will always protest for anything taken from Spain without permission !
Ossy :icon_sunny:
 

GibFocus Article...

HMS Sussex exploration: Spain cannot be allowed to get away with piracy says Opposition
gibfocus - 27th January 2009

According to a recent company report, Odyssey Marine Exploration has been unable to continue its work on the site of the shipwreck believed to be that of HMS Sussex because of interference from the Spanish Government and its agencies. Central to this is the continuing dispute of the sovereignty over the waters around Gibraltar which Spain continues to claim as her own.

The Opposition has said it takes a very serious view of this latest development which comes at a time when the territorial waters of Gibraltar have been placed under the microscope by Spanish politicians as a consequence of the eastside project.

In its latest report into the work done on the site believed to be that of HMS Sussex, the company says that at present access “remains denied to Odyssey by the Spanish government despite the wreck’s location in international waters, as recognized by the UK Government.” The company highlights the abrupt deterioration of relations with Spain and the “aggressive nature of the confrontation” which “required immediate action to ensure the health, safety and security of all staff aboard the Odyssey Explorer.” It will be recalled that Spain subsequently arrested an Odyssey vessel after it exited Gibraltar’s three mile limit even though the vessel was in international waters at the time.

"There are a number of serious issues that arise from this situation," said the Opposition. "The company is in partnership with the UK Ministry of Defence over its work on this site. This means that the British Government has a very real and direct interest in any treasure or artefacts found on the site. The British Government must have made a very weak defence of their own interests given that the project has had to be postponed because of Spain.

"The site is located in between the three mile limit of territorial sea that the UK has claimed for Gibraltar, and the twelve mile limit that the UK is entitled to claim. This means that whereas for Britain, and indeed under international law, the wreck is in international waters, for Spain it is in Spanish waters. It is clear to the Opposition that the failure of the UK to claim the twelve mile limit for Gibraltar on the east side has been a contributory factor in this dispute. It has allowed Spain to behave like pirates as if the sea belonged to them and as if they can do whatever they like. The United Kingdom cannot allow Spain to get away with piracy.

"The UN Convention on the law of the sea was signed in 1982 and entered into force in 1995. This set a new standard of twelve nautical miles of territorial sea which each country is entitled to claim. The United Kingdom has claimed it for other Overseas Territories but not for Gibraltar. The failure of the UK to claim the twelve nautical miles means that the east side of Gibraltar at present includes an area of sea which is regarded as international waters.

"Spain has no right to harass Odyssey or its vessels in Gibraltar or in international waters. The United Kingdom cannot simply let the matter rest there both as a partner in this project and as the party with the power to claim the twelve miles of territorial sea. The Opposition reiterate that the sooner the UK claims the twelve miles for Gibraltar on the east side the sooner that this issue will be resolved."

http://www.gibfocus.gi/details_todaysnews.php?id=4359
 

It seems to me that if Spain had been more cooperative with Gibraltar and Odyssey Marine over the Sussex Project, instead of constantly delaying the project and costing Odyssey a boatload of money in the process. Maybe Gregg and the folks at Odyssey would not have had reason to trust Spain and bring them in to work with them on the Black Swan project. Remember, that Odyssey was under no legal or moral obligation to partner up with Spain over the Black Swan.
Given the circumstances at the time, I would have handled the Black Swan discovery in the exact same way. Spain left them no other choice.
 

Wreckdiver 1715, court filing " FLAGGED ROYAL NAVAL WAR SHIP " under orders from naval command !
the whole cargo could have been 100% commercial, would not make any difference at all.
You say Odyssey was under no legal or moral obligation, You got to be joking !
The clock is ticking, and we both know that this has caused more harm than good to all Treasure hunters.
I think Odyssey would do well to stay clear of the Gibraltar saga, poking Spain in the eye, will only piss them off more.
Ossy
 

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