Oak Island the Strange, the Bizarre, and Maybe the "Truth!

[lokiblossom]

Hi Loki

You say this with such utter conviction, I'm sure you'll convince a lot of people! Were this true, dendrochronology with respect to correcting carbon dating would not work!! A 2,000 year-old tree has 2,000 living rings? Yeah, right! It was a good try!!!!!

I've heard of the date range, and don't doubt those were the results, but I don't know how accurate they are. Could you possibly provide the authority, or academic paper, on the effect of sea water?

You have an advantage over me. I don't know what 100-year-old coconut fibre looks like. Oops, hold on, having said that, if you're right, then I do. I happen to have in front of me a swatch of fibre from Oak Island, provided by Reginald V. Harris, which could be 800 years old! It looks in absolutely great condition! I'd use it for packing if I had more of it. I truly did think of having it tested, but I'd need a better evidence trail, and it's costly.

East Indiamen sailing vessels came into western seas through the Indian Ocean. Their cargoes could have been packed with coconut fibre.

I've heard about that, and I truly wish you success in seeing this through to completion.

I said I wouldn't make a song and dance about the topic, so I'll leave you to your views, and wish you well with any subsequent discussion.

I stand corrected, I did not realize that the heartwood of an older tree was considered dead. I was not trying to fool anybody and thanks to you I have spent last evening reading about trees. But, more importantly it does not affect the dating of the coconut fibre, which was at least once completed by Beta Analytic. I had a chance to get some of the fibre from the museum to be tested but didn't follow through. There was also a test done by the current owners of which I have not seen the paper work on, and possibly one much earlier.

You say East Indiamen came into western seas before the 1500's?
I do know that Templars traded in the Eastern Mediterranean with countries that also traded with India in the late 13th and into the 14th century.
Cheers, Loki

 

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[gjb]

You say East Indiamen came into western seas before the 1500's? I do know that Templars traded in the Eastern Mediterranean with countries that also traded with India in the late 13th and into the 14th century. Cheers, Loki

Loki

I really thought you started so well, but that’s a rather facile, or even puerile statement to make! I assume it’s a sardonic pleasantry rather than a serious observation. Otherwise, you’re actually assuming the consequent here. You’re telling us that your theory isn’t a theory at all, it’s a proven fact, and therefore all matters of reasoning must proceed from it.

Of course there were no East Indiamen before 1500, but you’re taking as a fact that the Oak Island origins date to before this time. You know full well that this has not been proven. It’s your supposition. Your premise is questionable therefore your conclusions are questionable, even if the structure of your argument is sound.

To reply in kind, you must know full well that there’s no record of a flourishing medieval trade in coconut fibre, but I concede that the spices of the eastern trade routes could have been packed in coconut fibre and carried across the desert on camels along the Red Sea trade route into Egypt, and thence into Europe. Here it would have been stashed by Templar knights, probably in the crypt of Solomon’s Temple in Jerusalem, along with the Ark of the Covenant and the Menorah, if not the Holy Grail, awaiting the amassing of shipping to take it across the Atlantic to a world few people except the Templars then knew of, etc.

This is the main reason I don’t like to enter into deep discussions on disputed topics. I need more fact. You’ve obviously committed to a theory based on a supposition that this analysis is to be trusted and can be taken at face value. At the moment, I feel that you’re operating on faith. That’s fine by me. However, you know my stand, and your comments look like they were intended to provoke this particular response, even if in humour.

I’ve seen discussions such as this degenerate on forums, and I don’t intend to go there. I trust that you’re not trying to make this happen. I take it that your comment was a joke, that your sense of humour is much like mine, but I know from experience that such jokes can backfire.

Let’s just live in peace.

 

[lokiblossom]

Loki

I really thought you started so well, but that’s a rather facile, or even puerile statement to make! I assume it’s a sardonic pleasantry rather than a serious observation. Otherwise, you’re actually assuming the consequent here. You’re telling us that you’re theory isn’t a theory at all, it’s a proven fact, and therefore all matters of reasoning must proceed from it.

Of course there were no East Indiamen before 1500, but you’re taking as a fact that the Oak Island origins date to before this time. You know full well that this has not been proven. It’s your supposition. Your premise is questionable therefore your conclusions are questionable, even if the structure of your argument is sound.

To reply in kind, you must know full well that there’s no record of a flourishing medieval trade in coconut fibre, but I concede that the spices of the eastern trade routes could have been packed in coconut fibre and carried across the desert on camels along the Red Sea trade route into Egypt, and thence into Europe. Here it would have been stashed by Templar knights, probably in the crypt of Solomon’s Temple in Jerusalem, along with the Ark of the Covenant and the Menorah, if not the Holy Grail, awaiting the amassing of shipping to take it across the Atlantic to a world few people except the Templars then knew of, etc.

This is the main reason I don’t like to enter into deep discussions on disputed topics. I need more fact. You’ve obviously committed to a theory based on a supposition that this analysis is to be trusted and can be taken at face value. At the moment, I feel that you’re operating on faith. That’s fine by me. However, you know my stand, and your comments look like they were intended to provoke this particular response, even if in humour.

I’ve seen discussions such as this degenerate on forums, and I don’t intend to go there. I trust that you’re not trying to make this happen. I take it that your comment was a joke, that your sense of humour is much like mine, but I know from experience that such jokes can backfire.

Let’s just live in peace.

Certainly part of my response was meant as humor. But yes, it is a fact that the Templars traded in the Eastern Med. in the 13th century. And I do believe that, if nobody lied, the coconut fibre dating indicates an earlier then 1400 ad deposit on Oak Island. It is also, and I'm sure you know this, a fact that a large Templar fleet left Cyprus in early 1307 for France, and then a little later that same year disappeared.
I should mention that I also don't think there is anything now on Oak Island.
You mentioned maps to another poster, and there are maps in the form of coordinates in various places such as Shugborough and RLC. I only mention all of this because I am always looking for open discussion which as you say you may not wish to be involved in.
Cheers, Loki

 

[gjb]

I am always looking for open discussion which as you say you may not wish to be involved in. Cheers, Loki

Hi Loki

There you go again! I will not be interested in open discussion! I do happen to be interested in RLC and Shugborough, but not in connection with Oak Island before 1500.

My feeling is that the core mystery of RLC has been harmed by too much outright deception in modern times, but from my comments here that should come as no surprise to you!

I actually wrote a piece on Poussin's Pentagon a while back that appeared in Andrew Gough's Arcadia. I bet that does surprise you!

 

[lokiblossom]

Hi Loki

I bet that does surprise you!

Not at all! Certainly I know Arcadia quite well, and if you are boasting about writing an article, which many of us have btw, more power to you.
Cheers, Loki

 

[gjb]

... if you are boasting about writing an article...

Not boasting, merely observing as a contrast.

 

[gjb]

I would like to see a survey of the Island to help locate the further Stones still not found.

Robot

As I understand it, then, the scale of the map is introduced after arriving on the island and locating at least two of the markers. There are multiple markers so that if the key marker, the triangle, gets removed it’s still possible to locate the treasure vault, which is placed at the position designated gamma Cassiopeiae, through the entrance at k Cassiopeiae.

So, if the Polaris Stone and the site of the Money Pit have been correctly identified by the Laginas then it should be possible to overlay the map and conduct a survey based upon it, and potentially identify other markers on the map. Finding other markers at the points identified would lend encouragement to the proposition.

If that’s a fair assessment then I agree with the logic. However, I’ve already put this to the Laginas with respect to my own reconstruction, and they weren’t interested.

I think my mistake was not suggesting that the treasure was linked to Shakespeare and the Rosicrucians, or the Zeno voyage and the quest for the Holy Grail, or to a Roman settlement nearby. My suggestion is clearly too prosaic for The Curse of Oak Island!

You may have better luck. Let’s hope so.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gentlemen, may I suggest 'calming down', no-one is 'right or wrong' at this point, otherwise it would have been recovered by now,

As a matter of fact "I think that 'my' theory is better than yours" ( collectively ) tis simpler than yours, and more in line with the thinking of the period.

The shaft was designed as a diversion fully expecting another to excavate and spring the water trap as such, but also as a way to deposit the material in another spot with a simple surface marker, for a realatively simple, shallow, excavation accesable in undisturbed soil

,--- Oro's infamous sock coffee or

 

[lokiblossom]

Marty signed a contract with the History Channel people and they are the ones who call the shots!
Cheers, Loki

 

[gjb]

Paradoxically, I think you have to be outrageous to be successful on Oak Island. To be attractive to the History Channel, it has to be something dramatic, such as involving the discovery of a secret rite practised by heretical refugee zealots who were protecting the golden tomb of an Egyptian pharaoh whose name was too sacred to be mentioned, and which they rowed across the Atlantic in a borrowed trireme using a map drawn up by the last survivor of Atlantis, which was found in a secret chamber of a monastery recently put up for sale. I’m working on the documentary evidence and artifacts, and should have them finished within a week.

 

[Robot]

Robot

As I understand it, then, the scale of the map is introduced after arriving on the island and locating at least two of the markers. There are multiple markers so that if the key marker, the triangle, gets removed it’s still possible to locate the treasure vault, which is placed at the position designated gamma Cassiopeiae, through the entrance at k Cassiopeiae.

So, if the Polaris Stone and the site of the Money Pit have been correctly identified by the Laginas then it should be possible to overlay the map and conduct a survey based upon it, and potentially identify other markers on the map. Finding other markers at the points identified would lend encouragement to the proposition.

If that’s a fair assessment then I agree with the logic. However, I’ve already put this to the Laginas with respect to my own reconstruction, and they weren’t interested.

I think my mistake was not suggesting that the treasure was linked to Shakespeare and the Rosicrucians, or the Zeno voyage and the quest for the Holy Grail, or to a Roman settlement nearby. My suggestion is clearly too prosaic for The Curse of Oak Island!

You may have better luck. Let’s hope so.

"Precisely"

 

[Robot]

Water…Water…Everywhere…But Not A Drop Stopped!

Hello, first post here.

I doubt if we are going to get anywhere until the problem of the network of interconnected flood tunnels is solved.

The original designers of Oak Island were very clever, but they did not reckon on modern technology.
Now the problem is discovering where all this sea water is coming from, which is really impossible, because it seems to be coming from multiple very carefully concealed sources.

There are simple well proven ways to trace where water is going, that are commonly used to trace water flow through complex networks of underground caves, for example. This is often done by adding flourescein dye to the water that can be detected in incredibly small concentrations. A few drops from an eye dropper can be detected in an Olympic sized swimming pool with the right equipment.

There is plenty on the internet about using flouriscin dye, so I will not go into the details here.

So far, efforts to pump the money pit dry have all failed because of the very high volume of entering water.

What I am suggesting is that a much better way to do this is pump water INTO the money pit, along with a small amount of flouriscin dye, from a chemical dosing pump. Then see where this water comes out into the surrounding sea.

Extremely low concentrations of dye can be detected, so by taking water samples from off shore, and recording locations and concentrations, all the multiple sources of the emerging water seeping up through the sea bed should be able to be pin pointed.
Once you know that, it may be possible to intercept the hidden passages where they cross the beach, if you know roughly where they may be located.

Its going to be a very long job, and a lot of hard work and patience will be required, but it should be possible to monitor the total flow being pumped, and relative concentration of dye to seal off the flood tunnels one by one.

When flow has been cut to zero. In other words the water pumped into the money pit can maintain a suitable head, without any leakage back to the sea, then it should be possible to pump it completely dry without it flooding.

Hi Warpspeed

Welcome to the "Show"

I believe the ingenious design of the Oak Island Money Pit has worked exactly as designed.

It was built much like today’s Toilet Bowl, with the “S” shaped design…Invented by Freemason and Royal Society of London member…Alexander Cumming.

Alexander Cumming (1733 –8 March 1814) was a Scottish watchmaker and instrument inventor, who was the first to patent a design of the flush toilet.



The Money Pit is like a water tank with a valve located in the shaft. If this valve was opened, there would be a maximum height attained by the water stream coming out of the right side tunnel from the ocean.

Relevant equations Bernouli's equation P1 + 1/2(density)(v1)^2 + density(g)(y)= P2 + 1/2(density)(v2)^2 + density(g)(y)

My research is that the Money Pit was first designed for “Entry Access”.

The location of the Pit was accessible to receive the Treasure and have it lowered down to the “Entrance Tunnel” and then dragged up to the “Treasure Vault”.

Next as a “Diversion”.

The Freemasons suspected that curious minds would be looking on the island for treasure; why not give them a place to concentrate their looking?

I believe it was correct when the Smith’s ancestors stated “Three Chests of Treasure” were found very early in their diggings, as this was placed by the Freemason in hope that it would dissuade any further digging.

And Last, but not Least…”Final Lock Down”.

If a Pursuer continued digging they would reach the “Decipher Stone” which could have been interpreted as “Pull this Cord to Plunge the Toilet”!

Once the “Air Lock” at this level was “Punctured” the Money Pit Tunnel was flooded up to the earth’s water table… Forever!

The Freemasons (other than recovering the 3 small chests) had no need for The Money Pit or it’s Tunnel anymore, for they always knew the location from above ground where their Treasure Vault and Bacon’s Tomb were located.

Many Companies have previously searched for a way to seal the Money Pit from it’s Flood Tunnel:

Building a “Coffer Dam” to dam back the Ocean’s tide.

Sending “Dye” out to locate the Pit's Intakes

“Dynamiting” the land around to collapse the Tunnel.

Pouring “Cement” down shafts to plug the Tunnel.

“Digging By-Pass Shafts” to circumvent the Flooded Shaft.

“Open Pit Digging” to locate any incoming Tunnels.

All have Failed!

 

[Warpspeed]

Many Companies have previously searched for a way to seal the Money Pit from it’s Flood Tunnel:

Building a “Coffer Dam” to dam back the Ocean’s tide.

Sending “Dye” out to locate the Pit's Intakes

“Dynamiting” the land around to collapse the Tunnel.

Pouring “Cement” down shafts to plug the Tunnel.

“Digging By-Pass Shafts” to circumvent the Flooded Shaft.

“Open Pit Digging” to locate any incoming Tunnels.

All have Failed!

That's interesting.
In all I have read about Oak island, I was not aware that the dye idea had already been tried, although I am not surprised as it's a very well established technique.

Only other idea would be to build a caison over the money pit and drive out the water with air pressure.
That too is a very well established engineering technique for providing a dry work environment under water.
As far as I know this has not been tried.
If the layout is as you suggest above, it should be a workable solution.

 

[Robot]

That's interesting.
In all I have read about Oak island, I was not aware that the dye idea had already been tried, although I am not surprised as it's a very well established technique.

Only other idea would be to build a caison over the money pit and drive out the water with air pressure.
That too is a very well established engineering technique for providing a dry work environment under water.
As far as I know this has not been tried.
If the layout is as you suggest above, it should be a workable solution.

Yes...The "Dye" theory was tried early on when it was suspected that sea water was entering the shaft and a tunnel may run out of it to the ocean.

It was even tried by the Lagina Brothers during their last episode...It failed terribly!

Not to "Burst Your Bubble" but the landscape around the Original Shaft of which they are not even sure of the location of the Original Shaft, is like a "Pin Cushion" with over 40 Shafts drilled or dug trying to circumvent the Original Flooded Shaft.

I would believe that all of these would need to be sealed to effectively accomplish your Idea!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

ACtually simple once you have located te access point, just dig down to the end of the "J" tunnel where it approaches the surface, a pre-arranged point. Nice and dry, above the water level of the flooded shaft.


As you can see I am a graduate of fine arts.

 

[Robot]

"X's" Marks The Spot!

ACtually simple once you have located te access point, just dig down to the end of the "J" tunnel where it approaches the surface, a pre-arranged point. Nice and dry, above the water level of the flooded shaft.


View attachment 1307162 As you can see I am a graduate of fine arts.

 

[gjb]

The shaft was designed as a diversion fully expecting another to excavate and spring the water trap as such,

No criticism intended, just an observation, but we do tend to make assumptions concerning the underground workings. For example, thinking logically rather than emotively, what earthly reason do we have to assume that just because there was water in the Money Pit when it was opened there was necessarily water there when the originator left the island? It really doesn’t follow.

It may seem sensible to insist that the Money Pit was intended to be connected to the tides, but this is not demonstrably correct. We may prefer the Money Pit to have been ‘wet’, because the implications of a ‘dry’ pit seem incomprehensible. It militates against there having been a treasure there, and would obviously negate the argument that such a treasure had to have been immense in order to require a tide trap to protect it.

But, why must there have been a water trap, and why must it have been necessary to spring it?

It looks like there could have been a blockage somewhere in the system for it to have taken a day or so for the water to rise to sea level after the diggers reached the platform at 98 ft. We are not told that they experienced any explosion of air, just that the soil was getting water-logged. It was initially a very slow seepage, which may have been caused by silting ... or something else.

Consider that there could have been two systems of tunnels: wet and dry. The dry system might be accessed from the Money Pit, and the wet system would take water from the ‘Sump Hole’ to defend the main deposit, which was to be accessed from elsewhere. Imagine, then, that at some point the two systems passed close to each other, and that over time (centuries) water eventually broke through into the dry tunnels and thus reached the Money Pit.

Alternatively, imagine that the excavation started as a single system and the originator blocked off the tunnel that led to the Money Pit. Ultimately, the pressure of water caused this to break down.

Some might argue that they know this just has to be wrong, or that it would be stupid to imagine it likely, but it is possible, and a demonstration that we convince ourselves that we know things we cannot possibly know, and how we become conditioned by other people’s errors in reasoning.

And it is an error of reasoning. The fact that b follows a does not mean that a was the cause of b. In this particular case, we might say that b (the flooding of the Money Pit) was caused not only by a (opening the shaft) but also by c (a barrier breaking down). It could be that the latter should not have happened, and opening the shaft had an unintended consequence.

I anticipate that very few people will wish to concede the possibility of error. And so an assumption has become fact. Here are two competing hypotheses, the choice of one over the other is a matter of preference, not of fact, or logic. If you feel the need to believe there’s a treasure in the Money Pit then this will decide the case, and your choice will be dictated by what you already believe, thus reinforcing it.

Some people will ask why on earth the originator would have left the Money Pit dry. I for one cannot read his mind, so they’ll have to ask somebody who can - and I’ve little doubt there’ll be some of those - who will inevitably tell us he didn't!


 

[lokiblossom]

No criticism intended, Imagine imagine imagine

Way more likely than other premises gib!
Cheers, Loki

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hola gjb, if my theory is anywhere correct, they did not flood the Money Pit, but left it dry but guarded by the flood trap. In fact as I remember it was realitively dry to depth until the excavators sprang the water trap.

The evidence of a trap is in the Coco nut fibres keeping open the flood canals.

There is always a certain amount of seepage in any excavation that is near water,

As I pointed out they obviosly intended to recover it, whatever it was,, verified by the shaft being relatively water free , when first opened, however I believe that it was their intention to use the alternate shaft to recover whatever they deposited there, if the original shaft had become unuseable, They never returned.

 

[gjb]

Hola gjb, if my theory is anywhere correct, they did not flood the Money Pit, but left it dry but guarded by the flood trap. In fact as I remember it was realitively dry to depth until the excavators sprang the water trap. The evidence of a trap is in the Coco nut fibres keeping open the flood canals.

Hola

The existence of flood tunnels other than at the Money Pit could be to do what many consider likely - to protect the treasure that's buried somewhere on the island. This is in keeping with your thoughts in other messages. But the tunnels leading into / from the Money Pit need not have been flood tunnels, simply work tunnels, and it may never have been intended for the Money Pit to get flooded. It may even have had a sump of sorts at the base to collect water.

The assumed box structure at 140 feet in the Money Pit may therefore have been intended to be accessed. It could have contained a token treasure to convince everyone to give up looking once it was discovered, It could have held what some have suggested - a paper deposit that had to be protected from moisture rather than from inundation. It could have contained documentation, a journal, an inventory, a deposit of scientific instruments used in the project. It could have been a draw, in order to prompt the collapse of the shaft were this inadequately cribbed. There are many things it could be in the scenario of a dry Money Pit. It does not have to have been a treasure vault. That is likely to be somewhere else - as I believe you agree - and, as I have also suggested, it may have required maps to identify the location.

I'm simply observing that there's an alternative to the Money Pit being part of the flood mechanism, and it may be well for interested parties to start considering the implications, particularly when it comes to spending millions to get to the bottom. It was a good call not to core drill the box structure (season 2 of Curse of OI), though this may have been forced on them by archaeological considerations. It's all very well destroying the context, but another matter entirely to risk destroying the content, even when the information is critical. What a bummer!