Oak Island the Strange, the Bizarre, and Maybe the "Truth!

[lokiblossom]

Thanx very much for answering that . Then if we had Europeans, in #'s that large, leaving Europe , with all the gold and treasure that you speak of (bold italics in your own quote above), then ....... You've got me confused. Because .... on the other hand ... you keep saying that your interest in O.I. isn't treasure .

So please clarify : Is there a tid-bit of hope for possible treasure , as the basis of interest in O.I., or not ? Your last post seems to suggest that it is indeed about treasure. Yet in post # 2015, you said that I'm the only one talking about treasure. See the apparent contradiction ?

There was also untold wealth in their Paris Headquarters, but I/we have no idea where it went. One report claims 18 ships left France some of which were too small to make an ocean voyage. Of those that could (the Mediterranean Fleet), I only posit a few crossing the big pond with Gerard de Villers, as leader. But these also had to wait until Spring as nobody in a 13th/14th century type vessel would begin a crossing of the Atlantic in late September. So I also posit a Winter layover at the Ardchattan Priory!

To answer your question, Yes, IMHO I suppose there is a tidbit of hope for a possible treasure and a clue to its whereabouts may be found on Oak Island, but its not on Oak Island itself, IMHO!

Cheers, Loki

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

.... I suppose there is a tidbit of hope for a possible treasure...

Of which O.I. plays a part in the riddle. So I'm not "the only one in the discussion talking treasure" Thankyou

 

[Raparee]

There was also untold wealth in their Paris Headquarters, but I/we have no idea where it went.

I suspect that the greater portion of the Templar's "untold wealth" was in the form of IOU's.

 

[franklin]

Not hardly. The Knight's Templar were bankers in their day but they were not stupid like the bankers of today.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

And likely, just like modern banks, there is no real weath stockpiled in the banks. It is "in play" as notes and loans and exchanges. Just because you show a balance at the bank does not mean the bank keeps any portion of it liquid. Sure, they have some (and whatever is in individual's strong boxes) but only a fraction of the deposited balance.

And the Templars we LONG before FDIC.

"The money had to go somewhere" when a bank collapses is a fallacy. It had already been dispersed and the bank couldn't call it back in fast enough.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Not hardly. The Knight's Templar were bankers in their day but they were not stupid like the bankers of today.

And their lack-of-stupidity (ie.: their smart-ness) allowed them to accumulate great riches. Which could be buried on O.I. Eh ? The connection-of-these-dots is inescapably clear .

 

[will7782]

not necessarily, Tom. the "treasure" is the historical significance of what happened.

FOR ME, the financial value of anything that might be found is totally unimportant it would not affect my life one iota. but how the knowledge of what transpired would affect history, and how it is viewed.

what did the Templars carry off? and what happened to it is a great, and unsolved question. their "loot" might be crates of copper trinkets worth little financially, but priceless historically.

that is what interests many people.

 

[b3y0nd3r]

B, it is absolutely impossible for anyone, anywhere, to disprove a buried treasure on OI. Can't do it. No matter what individual pieces of evidence are debunked, there will always be more "yeah, but what about...". Your continual asking for disproof ain't gonna change this basic fact: it's never gonna happen. If you think it is possible, then please explain how.

I never said "disprove the treasure". I said the presented evidence.

And Tom, if you but in with "then if not treasure why are you here" again I will ignore it because I answered that many times on this thread alone.

Given that the treasure cannot be disproven, the best we (everyone, skeptics & believers) can do is view the available evidences and judge them on merit. The baseline for this process depends on the viewee. I don't start with the assumption that everything is true; I start with the assumption that everything is questionable, so my baseline is clearly on the skeptical side. Evidences have to rise to a certain threshold before I would consider them even to be interesting. The threshold I use is generally Occam's Razor: what is the more likely explanation for this piece of evidence? Other people start with the assumption that everything is true. When that's the starting point, it's difficult to move forward because they start with a logical fallacy.

As a skeptic, If you have a threshold for what is acceptable evidence isn't it logical for a believer to have a threshold on what they will consider irrelevant or debunked evidence? If someone were to debunk OI presented evidence with facts, then we could move on to the next piece.

Let's take 2 examples.

The 90ft stone
This is a piece of evidence that even the people who found it thought so little of that they basically discarded it.1 While a later story came out that the stone had symbols on it that translated to a treasure message, that later story is completely inconsistent with earlier (and even eye-witness) accounts that said there were only scratches on the stone, and those probably from digging tools.2 The story of the symbols is very highly suspect, and the most likely explanation is they dug up an unremarkable stone.3

1. We don't know what they thought. For all we know, in their minds, they were going to find out what was there the next day so they may have figured the stone wouldn't be relevant until later.

2. A rubbing of the stone was made which was sent off to be translated. Apparently, there were runes of some sort on it. Otherwise why go through this process?

3. I thought that some of the skeptics thoughts(like yourself) that this was a sink hole. Now you are telling me they found one individual stone. if it was a sinkhole, wouldn't in be loaded with stones toward the bottom? If the stone was unremarkable, who would of thought up the story that it had runes? The stone had to be much different than the others.


If you start out assuming that the stone was real, had the carved symbols on it, and the symbols translated as claimed, then what would it take to convince you that these claims are likely false?

If you are asking me how to debunk it, it's very simple. Provide fact based evidence to counter the claim. Interviews with descendants, instants in history where the same type of thing happened, and other evidence.

Coconut fibers
This is, perhaps, the only piece of evidence that even interests me. It may very well be true that there are coconut fibers on OI, but so far no one seems to be interested in a proper retrieval & analysis. If they are real, then extending the search to other nearby islands to see if they have similar deposits would answer the question as to whether they are unique to OI. If they are real; if they are unique; if they are old; what then? We would want to postulate why they are there. That might include a buried treasure, but it would also include other theories that might be far more plausible. But right now, there is little to go on except pure speculation. There is nothing to work with, and the people who should want to know, apparently don't.

Find out the who, what, why of those fibers. Someone said it was just packing material. Did they really need to bury packing material deep underground? Where in history has coconut fibers been used to filter beach sand? Who would of thought of such a thing. Why make it up?

You can take every piece of "evidence" and inspect it in a similar way. If you start out with a skeptical view, then (IMO) nothing rises to the level of even interesting, except maybe the coconut fibers. Other skeptics may differ. If you start out believing everything is fact and true, then I'm not sure where you go from there.

I didn't say everything. But that's semantics. I would say that the original feel of the story is true. I am not saying verbatim.

But the bottom line is still the bottom line: in 225 years nothing has been found. And that end of the island has been ripped to shreds. That remains the most overwhelming evidence of all.

You mean nothing you would deem significant or treasure perhaps? All your point of view.

While I have a more clear understanding of your point of view, I feel we aren't making any headway. I appreciate your time allotted for me and I will no longer waste your time.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

not necessarily, Tom. the "treasure" is the historical significance of what happened. ...

Ok. Yet : When you press persons for definitions of what this "historical significance" is all about, guess what it is always traced back to the potential of ?

 

[lokiblossom]

I suspect that the greater portion of the Templar's "untold wealth" was in the form of IOU's.

Not at all, the King was impressed with what they had at Temple Villeneuve, the Paris headquarters. And what would the 160,000 florins of gold they brought with them from Cyprus be worth, plus what Addison called much silver and other treasures? No, in 1307 the Order was very wealthy, so much so that the King, who did have a lot of IOU's was very jealous.

Cheers, Loki

 

[lokiblossom]

Of which O.I. plays a part in the riddle. So I'm not "the only one in the discussion talking treasure" Thankyou

Yes, you were, in our discussion. You have a habit of trying to turn things around, for instance how does my agreeing that the Templars did have treasure mean that I, me, myself, am looking for that treasure? I also told you that I am not even sure they brought it with them to Nova Scotia. There were some 18 vessels that left La Rochelle and they went different directions, some to Portugal, a few to Ardchattan and others to nobody knows where.

Like I wrote earlier, I know your motives!

Cheers, Loki

 

[b3y0nd3r]

Yes, you were, in our discussion. You have a habit of trying to turn things around, for instance how does my agreeing that the Templars did have treasure mean that I, me, myself, am looking for that treasure? I also told you that I am not even sure they brought it with them to Nova Scotia. There were some 18 vessels that left La Rochelle and they went different directions, some to Portugal, a few to Ardchattan and others to nobody knows where.

Like I wrote earlier, I know your motives!

Cheers, Loki

I'm here for the hows and whys. Not Treasure....oh wait, you are agreeing with me

 

[Robot]

Did The Freemason Depositors...Build...The Hidden Wharf...At Smith's Cove?

Many theories abound as to what may have taken place at Smith's Cove.

Could the construction built there have been for an early Floating Dock, Floating Harbor or a Wet Dock?

These were docks built alongside a tidal waterway designed to maintain a 'constant' level, despite the changing tides.

A Floating Harbor is engineered similar to a Seaway's Lock System, like that of the Panama Canal...Recently Heavy Duty Hinge Found...Part of the Lock Door Assembly?



A prominent Engineer, Inventor, Freemason, member of the Royal Society of London, that could have designed this may have been... John Smeaton.

John Smeaton (8 June 1724 — 28 October 1792) was an English civil engineer.



Smeaton was the first self-proclaimed "civil engineer", and is often regarded as the "father of civil engineering". He pioneered the use of hydraulic lime in concrete, using pebbles and powdered brick as aggregate.

Smeaton was associated with the Lunar Society.

The Lunar Society was a prominant group of learned men including Benjamin Franklin.




Smeaton was important in the rediscovery and development of modern cement, identifying the compositional requirements needed to obtain "hydraulicity" in lime; work which led ultimately to the invention of Portland Cement.

He pioneered the use of hydraulic Lime (a form of mortar that will set under water) and developed a technique involving dovetailed blocks of granite.

Dovetailed Logs could also have been used.

What he required was a Cement that could set within the 12 hour tidal movements.

He helped with the construction of numerous docks in England.



Was it possible the water flooding from the South Shore Input Tunnel running under the Money Pit's 90 foot level may have been directed out to Smith's Cove via the Drain Tunnel.

The opening and closing of a Valve within this Drain Tunnel would have allowed Treasure Vessels to remain at this Lock indefinitely.

My Theory!...Always stated that they needed a place to offload the "Treasure"...And a place to Scuttle the expendable Spanish and British ships from Havana.

 

[Carl-NC]

I never said "disprove the treasure". I said the presented evidence.

The same is true for the individual evidences, though sometimes for different reasons. Many of the evidences don't even exist anymore. For those that do exist, there are differing explanations for which absolute hard proof will never happen. As an example, the original pit flooded. Why did it flood? The favorite theory is that there is a flood "trap". But every other hole that's been dug has also flooded. Geologists have determined that that is the nature of the island, the bedrock is porous limestone. While the geological explanation doesn't disprove flood traps, what is the more likely explanation? The evidence for geology is strong, and the evidence for flood traps is weak (or non-existent), but it's not the absolute disproof you're asking for. You're asking people to disprove lore and speculation. That simply isn't possible.

As a skeptic, If you have a threshold for what is acceptable evidence isn't it logical for a believer to have a threshold on what they will consider irrelevant or debunked evidence? If someone were to debunk OI presented evidence with facts, then we could move on to the next piece.

Yes, but I generally find believers to have an impossible threshold to meet. What would convince you that it is geology and not flood traps that cause the holes to flood?

If you are asking me how to debunk [the cypher stone], it's very simple. Provide fact based evidence to counter the claim. Interviews with descendants, instants in history where the same type of thing happened, and other evidence.

Again, it's debunking lore and speculation. Asking believers of the lore (decendents) does what? Do they have the stone? Who made the rubbing? Who was that sent to? Why was the stone important enough to make a rubbing of the glyphs but so unimportant that a guy used it to build a fireplace? And then, supposedly, used as an anvil. Considering the early eyewitness accounts and how the stone was actually treated, it points very strongly to being a non-player. My understanding is that the whole cypher claim was a later addition to the story.

And, yes, we have similar examples right here on TNet. People who find ordinary rocks and claim them to be treasure markers. Looks like a heart, looks like a turtle, etc. Some even see glyphs. Lots of that going on.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... The favorite theory is that there is a flood "trap". But every other hole that's been dug has also flooded.....

Which could simply mean that flood traps were put all over the island. And not JUST at the place they buried treasure. If you have enough slaves, and enough years, it's *possible* after all.

Ok, the ball is now punted back to Carl's court. Unless he can disprove the above end-run explanation on the flooding/traps issue, then : The legend still stands. He therefore hasn't dis-proven this detail. Hence: The legend remains true, till proven otherwise.

 

[etex]

Slaves, you mean this is a racist treasure they are looking for? Thats Offensive

 

[sasquash]

OMG the Jesuits are comming soon ... Another thread to start The Jesuits ? In Oak Island ?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Slaves, you mean this is a racist treasure they are looking for? Thats Offensive

Hhhmm, here's some non-racial differentials for "slaves". I'm looking long-&-hard at this, and fail to see an racial disparity.
So again we have : Wack-a-mole game at full swing

 

[petetherocker]

 

[ECS]

...
The Lunar Society was a prominant group of learned men including Benjamin Franklin...

Is this the group of Founding Fathers that were claimed in one theory to have removed the Templar treasure of the Ark and Grail from Oak Island to Williamsburg , Virginia?