Nice Bell Found at Shipwreck Site...with pictures.

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Our Lady of Mercy Church (Las Mercedes) was founded by the Order of the Mercedarians.

So...guys?...help me out here.

We couldn't have had a Jesuit bell going to another order.

Panfilo...I'm so sorry...you found a great date with this church.

Jas...still try to go to this church. Panfilo did such a great job with finding this date of 1635 linked to Las Mercedes...we all would love to see what the beautiful bell there looks like up close. Could you take a picture for us history folks? It would be interesting to see what other bells from the same time period ON OLD HISPANIOLA looked like!
 

Elle, you’re the Jesuit expert so I won’t contradict anything you say but my overall impression on the bell is that during the colonial period the religious orders adopted the anagram IHS to signify Jesus which was also adopted by the Jesuits as their symbol. If indeed many colonial bells had the inscription “Jesus Maria Joseph” or just simply “Jesus Maria” or more exactly “IHS Maria” I would guess that all or some religious orders were free to inscribe their bells this way not in reference to the Jesuit order. The litmus test is to verify some of the bells that I put up in those two web sites, one almost identical to Jason’s, if this bell was indeed hung in a Jesuit church or not. That will tell us if your theory is correct that the only bells that had “IHS Maria” were indeed Jesuits. I would speculate that that anagram was used by different religious orders in their bells but this needs to be verified. I would guess Elle that when they decided to rebuilt the Mercedes church some priest put in a request from Spain for a bell and they sent him one “run of the mill” with the current year 1635 inscribed to replace the one stolen by Drake in 1586. This is of course speculation based on this fragmentary information we have managed to assemble, no more.
 

Congrats on the banner Jason!!!!Im going to take a guess and say it was for( Maria ChiquitanĂ­a) bolivia 1635... Goodluck at the site :icon_thumleft:
 

Panfilo...please contradict what I say...it's ok. If you didn't in this field of research we wouldn't have the bulbs in our heads igniting again. I respect everything you say and one day if you ever get to the U.S., I would love to have you and your family over for spaghetti!
Listen, I understand what you are saying about the different religious orders.
However.........something is still bothering me. Yes...other orders did use "IHS MARIA."
Jason's bell, though, has the "H" almost directly over the cross. This could only mean one thing...Jesuit Order.
Now wait...I'm not saying I'm right...LOL...there is ALWAYS room for error when you are dealing with history...you are completely making some wonderful points.
We don't know what orders those bells in the website you provided are from...because it doesn't say the churches they were retrieved from, right? (or maybe I overlooked?...forgive me if I have). I hope Jason asks the curator in the email the names of some of those churches if the curator has them on file (the museum should know)...the ones at least with the IHS over the crosses. If we hear news that they came from Jesuit establishments in Spain...then there is a great chance we have our answer.
I tried to find if there was an order who specifically ordered the foundation of the Toledo Cathedral....but the history on that church is so elaborate going back to medieval.
Some of the bells on your website do not have the "H" from the "IHS" even remotely near the cross. Those may be bells used by a different order.
Jason's bell, though, I truly believe it to be Jesuit...with the markings I just described.

NOTE: Jas...ask the curator if he can look up the origin (LOCATION) on those bells in museum.
 

Jason,
Great find and I will keep my eyes on this thread to see where the story goes. I hope you find an awesome wreck with lots of history and treasures.

Thanks everyone for the education on bells and the Jesuit history.
Best of luck
NJ

P.S. From reading all the posts isn't the sunburst a Jesuit symbol that was not adopted by other religions so even with the IHS debate not settled it would still be Jesuit because of the sun symbol.
 

Will do Laura, checked this morning and no word from him yet. I'm shocked I made the banner...so proud. LOL Thanks again for all the info, I was up most of last night writing our activity reports for the government here, I'm off for lunch and then I'm right back into everything.

TNET rocks!

Jason
 

You got it (N.J.THer)! The sun is it...our Jesuit symbol.
As they used to say..."Ignatius is the SUN...and the STARS are the members!"

I have been trying to find a Jesuit parish near or in Santo Domingo...a current parish whose present clergy are Jesuits.
The idea...to take your picture of the bell, Jas, and see if they have recommendations for you.

Right now the only Jesuit occupation I can find is northwest in a town called Dajabon. Our Lady of the Rosary Catholic Church has Jesuit members who work as part of the Jesuit Refugee Service. This town is on the border and ... has a few issues.
I recommend...at this time...this will not be a route we'll take to pursue Jesuits working in the D.R. who might specialize in archaeological history.

If anyone else out there knows of a Catholic parish near Santo Domingo that is run by Jesuits...could you drop a note!

Thank you!
 

Now this is an amazing find! WoW! And what a great read on all the replies! :read2:

Many congrats to you and your crew, Jason!! I'll be watching to see what comes of your adventure!

Nana :wink:
 

Laura, Dajabon is not sooooo bad, I've been there within the last month. It is on the Haitian border, but the real problems only start when you get to the Haitian side. I plan to be in the Manzanillo area within the next few weeks, so I'll head over to Dajabon while there. I've got to go to the states for a week or so coming up real quick, so I want to get everything done here before I leave. Hopefully I can finish quickly in the states and get back down here in the water!

Thanks everyone for everything.

Jason
 

All I can say is what an incredible find.

You should feel proud of yourself that you will be placing it in a museum to share with everyone.

Good luck on the detective work.

Thanks for posting and congratulations for making the banner.
 

Here is a scrap of bronze with a lot of possibility.





I traced the curve of it and it had a diameter of around 8 inches. It was close to the shore-waves were pushing it across the sand, but from its shape, it might have been retrieved a long time ago and used as a knapping tool; so I reburied it back in the sand.
 

I wrote the curator of the Cultural Museum, "Jesuitico Museo Nacional de Jesus Maria."
It is located in Jesus-Maria, Cordoba, Argentina.

This fine building was once the church mission and convent of the Jesuit establishment called "JESUS-MARIA."
It supposedly houses 17th and 18th century paintings, medals, coins, porcelain and European ceramics, furniture, colonial silver, religious images, and ornaments!
I know this church began in 1618...but because Panfilo was brilliant enough to find the story about the Las Mercedes church and how it was reconstructed years later...there is a chance that is what happened to the church of JESUS-MARIA.
Perhaps the bell tower was not established in 1618 but took a few more years to finish.
I'll be sure to share on forum when I hear back...something tells me that this bell represents this mission in Argentina...there's a great chance I'm wrong also...but at least I know I tried!

Hey Jas...if you go to Dajabon...would you let me know what the current status is at that Jesuit church? I've been reading much about the priest at this parish and his dedication to the people who have work permits and want to work on the farms to earn money. He had let an amount of 600 people live in the church. My heart goes out to this priest and his devotion in helping others. Fill me in, ok?

P.S. Lamar I know you said you wrote your Jesuit friends in Argentina about Jesus-Maria. I don't mean to be racing to get the answer...I want to work along side a wonderful group of brains who all share the same enthusiasm in solving a mystery. I just know that in my field of research, I can write up to 7 letters a week...long letters...in asking for assistance. Only half usually reply and I just have to accept that. A great number of my letters are to clergy members concerning church history...and sometimes...well...for whatever reason...no reply. But then there's those days when famous authors, historians, board members from museums, and priests write back...from all over the world...and in different languages...and my eyes light up like a child in a candy store. So I am sorry...I mean you no disrespect.
 

excellent find, i would have passed out.........keep in mind that if you decide without a doubt that this is not a ships bell and it is in fact a Jesuit bell (or any other type of church bell).....there is ANOTHER bell on the bottom of the ocean ....keep digging...in the history books and in the sand
 

I will do my best to get over there and see this man Laura, I have a lot of respect for him too. He is probably the last priest alive facing the same dangers as his colonial forefathers faced when walking into unknown native indian territory to convert them.

Good point Marty-Graw!

On the "race to the answer" comment, I think the biggest mistake any researcher can make is turning it into a competition instead of a collaboration. No one person can be the smartest about every subject, and a great researcher listens as well as they speak. Everyone always wants the answer quickly, and everyone wants to be first. But the main thing I learned from working with Dr. Kordac was not to shoot for the bullseye with your first guess, but to start from the outside and work your way to the center. If you think you are right instantly, you may never make it to the correct answer because you are so set on trying to prove that your first guess was right. (not directed at you Laura, or anyone else for that matter...just something I learned about my own research skills.)

My thoughts are that while this bell is very nice, it is not particularly unique...in fact it is almost as common an example as you can find. We've looked at several hundred bells, all with the same markings, crosses, suns, and inscriptions as this, or at least very similar. The bells we looked at were hanging in other churches, from ships sterns, and Jesuit missions as well. I hope we're not trying to read too much into things. Finding a bell without a cross, sun symbols, or the name Jesus Maria or IHS Maria, now that would be unique. Remember that Jesus was called the light or Sun in the old testament before he was even born, the Jesuits did not come up with this symbol, they adopted it! For the record, I do believe the bell has Jesuit influence, but don't let that cloud your thinking entirely, that is not the only clue.
 

Jas...you are a wise man and I totally agree with you!
But don't give up hope with pinning down an answer...sometimes answers come miraculously!

Oh...and yes...Maria means Mary.
 

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