Nice Bell Found at Shipwreck Site...with pictures.

[ScubaFinder]

Thanks Laura, and don't think I don't know how lucky I am just to be here working. This wreck has more potential than any other I've seen here, and we have located over 30 of them. This particular wreck has captured me from the beginning for no apparent reason....we've got wrecks in easier spots to work, wrecks with more cannon, wrecks in much smaller piles, and even 50 or so coins from one of them...but when I go to sleep at night, it is this site that I dream about. Not sure why, but this site has occupied the better part of my brain since we first saw it and now I cannot WAIT to get back....but the weather is crappy. Danged Neptune!

 

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[elle]

I will say a prayer that you get back to this wreck soon.
I have dedicated my life in the effort to save and preserve religious artifacts off of shipwrecks.
If there is even a slight chance your wreck has one more relic...be sure I will come to the D.R. myself to confirm that each one is found. It is something I truly believe in because each significant artifact represents a story of the past...a glimpse of early church history and the great missionaries who helped in the expansion of New Spain. I, myself, do not want these precious objects lost to the sea forever.

Laura

 

[Trond]

That's a beautiful girl.

 

[Panfilo]

Jason and Elle:
Here’s a long shot: at the church of Las Mercedes in Santo Domingo, construction started in 1527 and was interrupted and restarted in 1530, being finished twenty five years later in 1550. Sir Francis Drake nearly destroyed it in 1586 and the hurricanes of 1615 and 1628 destroyed its ceiling and a great deal of the construction. It was reconstructed in 1635 by Pedro de Portillo who constructed the tower and restores the vault with two arches in stone, the main area, the base of the front and the façade. You can tell by this that he nearly redid the whole church. You can see the bell in the picture below of the church as it is today. When you have sometime off in Santo Domingo why don’t you go and take a picture of this bell and see what luck we have, it’s probably just a chronological coincidence but the location and the years matching make it a possibility. If nothing else we’ll have another picture of beautiful bell.

 

[lamar]

Dear elle;
You wrote:
The church was only exempt from taxes when it came to transporting church silver. When the Jesuits were expelled from the New World, most of their artifacts remained at the missions taken over by the Franciscans. I know because I just wrote a paper on Father Serra who traveled down to the mission of Loreto. He retrieved the famous artifacts once used by the JESUITS and brought them back to his mission in California for safety.

Completely true, m'lady, however I wish you the very best of luck trying to convince some conspiracy theorists of this fact. I've been trying to do this for a while and they almost have ME convinced that there exists all manner of Jesuits treasures strewn throughout Mexico, Central and South America, about every 100 yards ro so.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear Scubafinder;
You wrote:
Oh don't think I haven't been mulling over your earlier thoughts Relic. You are right, the Jeuits had a reason for everything. The different numbers in the pyramids under the cross are interesting too. I've noticed that bells from certain regions will have the same count and configuration under the cross, but this is the only bell I've seen with the 3-2 configuration. It may end up that this is the clue that gives us a region. Who knows....


To address your statement, I would like to offer that your bell has three suns turned at a 45 degree angle, in diamond shaped patterns, at the extreme top of the crossbar and the extreme left and rights ends. Most likely these represented the 3 nails that were used to crucify our Lord and it is very prominently used by the Jesuits. In fact, when St. Ignatious of Loyola formed the Jesuit Order, in addition to the IHS Christogram with cross and the the Sun surrounding it, we may always find a reference to the 3 nails. In the case of the seal, the 3 nails are most generally placed below the Christogram.

As far as the pyramid below the Cross, this wass to represent Mt. Golgotha, the site where our Lord was crucified Many medieval depictions of the cross where rendered with the cross on a mound. This is to signify that it was Jesus who was crucified and not one of many other martyrs of the era. Many times in early Christian symbology, when a cross was rendered not on a mound, this was most probably to signify that the person was not Jesus, rather it was another early martyr. In the case of St. Peter, the cross was always depicted as being upside-down, as that was reportedly how he requested to be crucified.

As far as the number of the actual squares which comprise the pryamid shape, this was most likely due to the fact that the main body of the bell is rather squat. Compared to other taller bells of the era, we can plainly see that the pyramid was comprised of more blocks, due to there being more space. In all likelyhood, the bell was not cast by the Jesuits themselves, rather it was most likely cast by a bell caster who held a contract with the Order to produce bells.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[ScubaFinder]

Great idea Panfilo....especially if the date on the bell is 1635, but I bet they kept the original date of opening for prestige's sake. I should be in Santo Domingo for a few days this week, I'll make sure I stop by there. You never know...maybe the priest will tell me a story of a bell lost on a shipwreck. Then we can reunite the bell with its church...now THAT would be a cool ending to the story. OK, I might be dreaming a little, but what kind of a treasure hunter would I be if I couldn't dream. LOL

Dell, thank you sir...you give me too much credit.

Lamar - would it suprise you much if there WERE Jesuit treasures buried everywhere? They certainly had the mines for it, and they weren't a stupid lot, so I'd say it's likely. Maybe a little more widely spaced than your imagination-heavy theorists think, but I'd bet money that they are out there.

The mounds under the cross are getting us a lot closer to a maker ID on the bell, so they are serving us some purpose. It is somewhat unique to only have 2 levels, and anything unique is always good in research.

 

[lamar]

Dear Scubadiver;
If it is possible, are you able to ascertain whether the bell is a maiden or a tuned bell? A tuned bell is usually more expensive as part of the interior casting had to be removed in order to produce a very particular sound or tone. Maiden bells, on the other hand, were used just as they were cast, without any tuning, and they were most generally utilized in places where there was only a single bell in the tower, as opposed to tuned bells, which were comprised of multiple bells, each with their own bell rope and rang to produce specific tones comprising a tune.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Panfilo]

There is an interesting and curious fact I forgot to mention about the bells in this Church of the Mercedes in Santo Domingo: one of the bells (I don’t know how many are there, more than one for sure) belonged to the American Navy gunboat USS Memphis that sank during a tsunami on August 29 1916.
“At three in the afternoon of 29 August 1916, the 14,500-ton armored cruiser Memphis and the 1177-ton gunboat Castine were riding gently, anchored in the open roadstead off Santo Domingo, capital city of the Dominican Republic. Rear Admiral Charles F. Pond, for whom Memphis was flagship, and a recreation party were ashore and the remainder of the ships' officers and crews were engaged in normal duties. Far away somewhere in the depths of the Atlantic Ocean or Caribbean Sea, a seismic event had already generated a powerful tsunami, or tidal wave, as such things were then termed. One of the two ships would barely escape its effects, while the other would be driven ashore a complete wreck. More than forty men would lose their lives. Her bell was presented to a local church, a token of appreciation for the work performed by Dominican citizens in rescuing her crew.”
Now this could be a very unique ending in your story, if indeed it was destined to go there in the first place!

 

[lamar]

Dear RELICDUDE07;
Perhaps if the rendition were a bit larger I could translate it? As it stands, I can barely make out anything at all.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Mackaydon]

One (perhaps more readible) source of the olive branch chart is:

The Power and Secret of the Jesuits, Rene Fulop-Miller, (Garden City, NY: Garden City Publishing Co. 1930).

 

[Silvergurl]

Amazing. I read every word posted here from start to finish. Great find and piece of history.

 

[nova treasure]

It has been great following this thread and will continue learning the historical significance of the bell. It will make a very nice museum piece and thank you for sharing it with us.

Nova Treasure

 

[Panfilo]

Jason, reading about Drake’s attack on Santo Domingo in 1586 I find he not only destroyed several churches including this one, the Church of the Mercedes, but it is documented he stole the church bells:
“Haciendo exigencias inició la demolición y el incendio de la ciudad, llegando a destruir una tercera parte, quemando y saqueando las iglesias de Santa Bárbara, de las Mercedes, Regina, San Francisco de Asís y Santa Clara. En estas acciones de pillaje se perdieron valiosos archivos de la más antigua ciudad de América.
Además del pago, Drake consiguió llevarse las campanas de las iglesias, la artillería de la Fortaleza y las pieles vacunas (cueros), azúcares y cañafístolas que encontró en los depósitos del puerto y en otros almacenes así como los barcos que no se habían quemado.”
One could conclude reasonably that when they decided to reconstruct this church of las Mercedes in 1635 by Pedro de Portillo, that a new bell be ordered from Spain to complete this restoration.

 

[Aquila]

Sweet bell, congrats , very nice find.

 

[ivan salis]

see if the bell currently at las mercedes * is dated 1635 as well -- and also ask if the bell thats there is the "second" one (a replacement bell) * possibly yours was the "original" one ordered for when the church was repaired back in 1635 --and sank enroute to the church. (or maybe there was more than one bell headed for the church-- like a set of bells --and one of the vessels carrying one of them in the fleet was lost )

 

[mariner]

Jason,

Isn't the date on the bell 1639, rather than 1635? I read a lot of early manuscripts and have seen the number 5 written in different ways, but I don't remember ever seeing it written like an incomplete 9.

Not that a date of 1639 would preclude it from being associated with a church built a couple of years earlier.

Mariner

 

[elle]

I just realized something important...thanks to Lamar pointing out the mound under the cross!

On August 7th...I posted my remark about missions and the their symbols.
Usually when studying religious artifacts, I look for a cross over the letters. Bell makers will usually cast a cross on top of the letter "O" to signify a mission.
There is no letter "O" as we can all plainly see that.
The next best thing the maker could do along with the Jesuit designer was to put the cross over a mound.
A mound and an "O" stand for the same symbol...with the cross above it!
This concept is still taught at the Catholic schools and religious ed classes...I know first hand.

"A cross over a mound or an "O" represents A MISSION."

Jas...the reason there are two levels of a mound is simply to indicate that it is indeed a mound.
One level would just seem like the ground.
This bell was indeed going to a mission with this direct symbol being displayed.
Thank you Lamar for pointing out the mound!

Laura

ps This doesn't rule out Las Mercedes yet...for many early churches were built as misssions...they co-existed together. Panfilo did you check if this church was established by the Jesuits?

 

[IronSpike]

Wow what a Banner Bell

 

[ivan salis]

three then two with a cross on top --- a cross on the "mound" -- meaning christ on "the" mount --mission bell -- so jesuit mission type bell dated 1635 ---- humm -- with the mission "las mercedes" being rebuilt in 1635 * by pedro de portillo -- in santo domingo --could this bell have been meant to go there?