Nice Bell Found at Shipwreck Site...with pictures.

IHS --meaning jesuit order ---the term (maria annode)--st mary (of the) harvest 1635 (1639?)-- idea name for a mission * since they were harvesting both souls and food * farming was one of the jesuits orders "bussinesses" that they put their "comverts" to work at earning cash for the "order"---the jesuits were very profiet oreinted --and seldom stayed long in any non profietible cash flow area. (like florida )-- they pulled out in 1572 after finding the indains in florida very hostile as they tried to "convert" them into "laborers" leading to fighting which killed off many preist --that and the lack of valuible items in florida caused them to leave for the "greener pastures" --of mexico and south america.

with the above "jesuit order church bell" being a "dead ringer" for yours theres little doubt in my mind --that its a jesuit order mission bell sent as "cargo" -- headed --for a mission called either " jesus & (saint) mary (of the) harvest * or "Mary of the harvest" if IHS is not set to mean "jesus" in this case but is only the the jesuits orders "mark" in this case. -- most likely in south america --they were quite busy there at the time--( the jesuit mission founded in 1618 in the town of jesus maria in argentina is a highly possible candidate)-- its likely the bell was made in spain (cast) in 1635 for the church's mission --- the wreck should date within a year or so of the date 1635 on the bell --as it was most likely shipped out on the following years fleet or shortly after it was made.

find the mission and its location**** and you will know the main port the vessel you found was "bound" for --(the nearest "big" drop off port for supplies from the old world * closest to the mission) --once you figger out where the vessel was bound for checking from 1635 for a few years afterwards should give you some ideal of the "possible" inbound vessels that were lost ,if the bell was lost as "inbound" cargo that is.

now check up also to see when the mission shut down**** (as this to could help date the wreck if it was "outbound" cargo --since once shut down the missions bell had to be "returned" to the mother order back in spain --that if it is the case could mean a "outbound" treasure (gold / silver) carrying vessel .
 

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Jason... I'm sure the DR will want this bell, so how do you make the split short of cutting it in half? If they take the bell, what does your group get?
 

ScubaFinder, have you read the published reports on a very similar bell as yours found on the wreck that is believed to be the Queen Ann's Revenge, possibly belonging to Blackbeard sinking in 1718 off North Carolina?

This research discussion provides information recently gathered on a bronze bell recovered from the shipwreck believed to be Queen Anne's Revenge, which is embedded on the ocean floor a short distance off the North Carolina coast. This spectacular artifact was recovered on the day the site was discovered. When cleaned, the bell revealed an inscription "IHS MARIA" and an apparent date "ANO 1709". While this information did not confirm the exact identity of the shipwreck remains, it provided good chronological evidence since Queen Anne's Revenge, a ship lost by the pirate Blackbeard in 1718. Discovery of the bell, along with a handful of diagnostic artifacts convinced state archaeologists to announce the discovery as the likely site of Queen Anne's Revenge and commit major resources toward its study. After six years, evidence continues to support the identity of the shipwreck as that of the notorious pirate. Undoubtedly the most surprising revelation was their finding that the inscription denoting the bell's casting date is almost certainly 1705, not 1709 as commonly believed. Several examples were provided as demonstration of the writing form for a "5" that was common in Spain at the beginning of the 18th century

http://www.qaronline.org/rcorner/bellreport.htm
 

Yep, I've read all the reports from QAR and I think we established this as a Jesuit mission bell a while back, thanks to Laura (Elle) and Panfilo for nailing it first. I had my suspicions, and Laura's info confirmed them! Thanks to everyone who made constructive input.

Jeff K, Great question, and let me say first that we wouldn't even think of owning this bell....it will absolutely be in the museum in Santo Domingo...it's too important and nice to sit in a private collection. That being said, Sr. Francis Soto and everyone at the ONPCS here in the DR have always treated us more than fairly at division time. It will be in the ONPCS lab for professional cleaning shortly, and will be sitting in a glass case after it's done, no question about it.

Jason
 

I have to say that I'm so appreciative of this forum that was created here on TNET. I'm sure Jason and his company are extremely thankful to the many contributors who are helping with this bell mystery. I, myself, have to thank Ivan, Lamar, but mostly Panfilo who was brilliant in discovering the picture of the bell from the Toledo cathedral...you found the winner picture, Panfilo!

As we have all concluded this specimen is a religious bell...one of the Jesuit Order. We wish we could tell you differently, Jas, that it is a ship's bell, but in reality....this is a truly tremendous find!

The bell itself is one of extreme value...rich in history which represents the start of exploration and colonization in the New World.
This bell is more important than silver or gold because it tells us a story. And we are so lucky, Jason, that you were able to retrieve it and show the world for all eyes to appreciate.

As my research has indicated, the bell's lettering was abbreviated with the name of the Jesuit establishment yielding JESUS-MARIA of the year 1635.

There are only two establishments of this name I've discovered so far that would make sense to where this item was being sent.

But before I give the locations, I wanted to state that the theory of this bell going back to Spain is somewhat unlikely. Even though sometimes a bell was sent back to Spain after a mission closed....this did not happen often. When a mission was destroyed...the artifacts were usually destroyed at the same time or stolen. It was NOT common practice to ship a large heavy church mission bell back to Europe unless there was a significant reason. Remember, cargo space had limits and was expensive.
The church was only exempt from taxes when it came to transporting church silver. When the Jesuits were expelled from the New World, most of their artifacts remained at the missions taken over by the Franciscans. I know because I just wrote a paper on Father Serra who traveled down to the mission of Loreto. He retrieved the famous artifacts once used by the JESUITS and brought them back to his mission in California for safety.

Going back to where JESUS-MARIA existed...there was a SPANISH settlement in what was a region in current Paraguay. A group of rebels in Brazil called Mamelucos decided to overtake the Spanish in the early 1600's. They pushed thier way through Paraguay into the district of Moxos.
It said that in 1629 they first started to destroy the JESUIT Mission of San Antonio burning the church and houses. The priests and Spanish settlers fought hard but ultimately more missions suffered...SAN MIGUEL AND JESUS-MARIA.
Because we know JESUS-MARIA in Paraguay was perishing around 1629...it is unlikely the bell was heading there.

In Argentina, though, there was a fully established JESUIT church and mission called JESUS-MARIA that was in full operation in 1635. If you would like...I would be happy to write a report for the musuem of this possible establishment where the bell was headed to. And I will be happy to contact the local archives and musuem in Argentina to see what other relics might still exist today from that establishment. Perhaps then we could come to solid a conclusion. There might be other artifacts with the same exact symbols and writing there...presently on display!

All the best,
Laura
 

Dear elle;
I've already thought of the Argentinian setttlement of Jesus Maria. I've contacted a couple of Jesuits friends there and I am waiting on a reply back. The problem is that there were so many Jesuits missions which sprang up and then just disappeared from existence, for any one of thousands of different reasons. I reckon that perhaps only 35-50% of all Jesuit New World missions were properly and duly recorded as such, therefore the correct mission may not be listed anywhere. And before you ask, no, I am NOT a Jesuit priest, nor am I a priest of any other Roman Catholic Order.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

Somehow I fail to believe that any longterm action initiated by a Catholic preist of whatever denomination was not documented in some manner .
 

Dear truckinbtch;
Not everything was documented and some things which were documented have long since perished, for whatever the reason. No, this is not a conspiracy theory in the making, this is simply the course of history. Documents have a way of deteriorating, or being destroyed by natural events, or by merely being disposed when deemed no longer useful. Also, the sheer bulk of documents located throughout the New World colonies was of such volume and that trying to put them all together in one place and catalogue them would take several lifetimes to accomplish.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

I will agree that some missions were lost throughout time...not their existence...but their full names.
There may be more to the mission name Jesus-Maria. Sometimes a second title was added...such as Mission San Pedro y San Pablo de Bicuñer.
"Jesus-Maria" might have had a second title that did not fit on the bell.

What was not lost was the archival evidence. These papers of history exist ... not only in the Vatican Archives but the main Jesuit Archives in Rome. Each Province of the Jesuits also have their own archival department.
The Jesuits were known to be the best recorders throughout the centuries. They documented everything in all the positions held. They were known to be scholars and historians in every subject ...having their own printing presses for a variety of publications.
Missions were drawn and marked in many maps and books of the 17th Century and the 18th Century.

I do admit that information was lost when the Jesuits were expelled because books and materials were burned. However, this same information such as names of the missions and their operations would have still been documented in other sources in other places in the world...mainly Rome.

The information about the Jesus-Maria of 1635 DOES exist out there...I have no doubt whatsoever. It does EXIST in the archives but finding the evidence is the question.
Sometimes finding the answer is not as hard as one thinks. I'm still going to write the museums if Jason seeks more assistance to see what other church relics might exist from the old Jesuit establishment of Jesus-Maria in Argentina. Many times the same markings and titles are written the same exact way on many artifacts.
If we all put our heads together and work with each other from all our clues...we might have an answer real soon!
 

Elle:
Congratulations on your fine research and enthusiasm on trying to resolve this very interesting puzzle that ScubaFinder has kindly shared with us. So many people sharing their expertise make this bell seem like its trying to speak to us. I do have some thoughts regarding your ideas as to the mission it might have been on its way to adorn. I don’t think that it necessarily would be named “Jesus Maria” or that this in anyway was an integral part of the mission or churches name, it was just a common practice to place these two names on bells that rang and hung in churches. The proof is overwhelming and the numbers of bells that have inscribed “IHS Maria Joseph” are many and they don’t relate in name to the church where they are or were made for. The year of 1635 on the other hand is very indicative and if ScubaFinder could have a metallurgical assay done on the bell we could probably find out more the specific alloy that would ascertain were it was made. A foundry marking hidden under the effect of the salt for 374 years would yield many clues. I don’t know what other items such as coins that would date the wreck have been found but logic would indicate that the bell was going to a church that was ready to be finished, perhaps the following year as it was most likely under construction when the bell was ordered so I wouldn’t discard the thought that the ship wrecked in 1634 with a brand new bell onboard. Keep this in mind when looking for the records of churches being founded as construction took in cases 10 or more years to complete.

I’m attaching a fine website of a Valladolid, Spain bell museum that has 20 similar bells to prove my point. The bell in this picture is from 1710 and it also has the exact same markings "IHS Maria".

http://www.funjdiaz.net/campanas2.cfm
 

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ok so it was a "standard" set of markings for jesuit church bells * the date 1635 on it still as you say is highly important -- and can possibly assist in dating the wreck -- I think it was bound for the mission coming from spain most likely * but other items from the wreck are needed to settle the "inbound" cargo vs "outbound" matter **
 

WOW! All I can say is thank you for all the great information, all of you. I know we'll get to the bottom of it soon. I've contacted the bell museum in Valladolid and will hopefully have one of their experts looking at the pics soon. Keep the info coming, it will be fun to see the outcome of this mystery. We don't have a lot of other artifacts from this site yet, just lots of cannon and anchors, and we've seen some of her timbers and ballast, but are still closing in on the main pile. She took a real beating going down and is scattered pretty bad...but we will find her final resting place. The reason this bell was so well preserved is because it made it's way down into a small protected sandy area between two reefs...the sand is over 12 feet deep so the bell sat for hundreds of years in a nice calm anoxic sand shroud. Lucky us!

Thanks again!

Jason
 

I still think the suns on the bell's cross play a big part in the clues....I think it could be how many mission were in the region.I see the one posted from 1737 has 37 suns and others on the link above have different sun counts also...One from santa barbra looks like 19 just like Jason's bell..I hope you keep us posted with the rest of the artifacts you guys find, it's what i love the best about T-net..You know its just guess but worth looking into---- the count and why they are different....
 

Oh don't think I haven't been mulling over your earlier thoughts Relic. You are right, the Jeuits had a reason for everything. The different numbers in the pyramids under the cross are interesting too. I've noticed that bells from certain regions will have the same count and configuration under the cross, but this is the only bell I've seen with the 3-2 configuration. It may end up that this is the clue that gives us a region. Who knows....
 

Panfilo, where were you when I needed a study partner in college?

I completely believe in your theory...you are simply amazing.

The website you provided is one of the best visual elements for studying...
I can't thank you enough because it will help me greatly
in own private research and transcripts.

Thank you again... :notworthy:

Laura
 

I'm working on some coins that were possibly pulled off the same site before our leases were even in effect. The fishermen here aren't known for being particularly truthful about where they found things though...especialy shiny things. :) We're working on some better funding to allow us to have one team dedicated full time to this site, so as soon as we select our future partner, things will start moving quickly. I'll definitely keep you guys posted on anything we bring up from this wreck, and anything I find out on the coins..I haven't seen them yet, just heard about them and we're trying to make arrangements to take a peek.

For reference, most of the data we have gotten back on the cannons and anchors put them in approximately the same time frame (1600-1650). Being on the north coast of DR with inbound cargo makes it more likely a Caribbean ship that didn't make atlantic crossings. Maybe it was a coastal trader running cargo from Havana and picking up goodies along the way to be loaded onto outbound ships when it returned.
 

Panfilo...thank you so much for sharing your residence with the forum.
I am overwhelmed...the picture of the beautiful lady and the dogs is indescribable...but especially the mosaic of Mother Mary (or a religious Saint) on the building!
You are so fortunate to have an old mission in your family and I can see you are preserving it way beyond speaking!
Bless you and your family...

By the way...if I'm ever in Columbia...may I stop by with my metal detector?...it would be a dream to hunt and preserve some church relics that have been lost for over two hundred years!

Thank you again for all your help,
Laura

p.s. My research partner's wife is from Columbia...may I ask what region you are from?
 

Scubafinder,

Let me add my congratulations, and my thanks for sharing this find. And let me thank all those, but especially Panfilo and Elle, for sharing their knowledge and research with us in understanding the complexity involved in identifying a bell such as this.

To my mind, this thread has exemplified all that is best in this Forum.

Mariner
 

Jason...your group in the Dominican Republic is very lucky to have found this bell.
Maybe you don't know how lucky you are yet with this discovered shipwreck that is awaiting to be fully salvaged!

My studies in the last few years have revolved around the shipwrecked goods of the Catholic Church voyaging to the New World and back.
I am sure Panfilo, Lamar, Ivan, and many others could elaborate on this angle I am about to suggest.
The church during the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries often sent relics from Europe over to the missions and churches of New Spain.
The consecration of a church had to be made by placing on its altars a reliquary. Bones, relics of silver and gold, and even complete corpses of saints arrived to be placed in the many churches that were being constructed. These objects not only blessed the interior building of the church, but assured protection against plagues and bad events.

The Jesuits were very high believers in relics, along with many other orders.
I just had a discussion with my pastor of my Catholic Church which was built in the 1960's. He said that when he moved here from Boston, he immediately looked under the alter. Sure enough, located in a compartment...lies several bones from a saint!

But here is an example of what could be found on a shipwreck that was in route to the New World centuries ago...holding cargo of the Catholic Church. In 1578 the Jesuits organized a procession of 214 relics of European saints that the pope had sent to be distributed in the churches of the New World. They sat in reliquaries of gold, silver and precious stones.

Jason, there is a great chance that your wreck could hold some very important relics and artifacts; for that bell might not have been sent alone.
You may have a ship of INCREDIBLE VALUE...rich in history...especially church history!
I cannot wait for you to continue your salvaging on this wreck, and the fact that your group is contributing this bell to the rest of the world to see is OUTSTANDING!
Thank you for preserving and donating...I speak along with the rest of those who appreciate history.
 

Nice place you've got there Panfilo....I'm guessing you've already covered it with a metal detector. LOL I heard back from the curator of the museum with all the bell pics, and have sent him all of my pics. I had our website address at the bottom of my email and he checked it out. About 5 minutes after sending him the email, he correctly identified the nationality, maker, and year of a plate we have pictured there. Needless to say I think I'm going to like what he has to say, and will share it with all of you when I hear back from Joaquin.

Thanks Mariner! And the rest of you...keep it coming.
 

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