Nice Bell Found at Shipwreck Site...with pictures.

[Chagy]

Compadre,

you may want to look into AGI Ct. 2900 Lib. I. fo 253 vto.
and Cf. 1643 A., e, Ct. 5119, Cadiz, 20 mai 1644

Good Luck!!!!

Chagy.....

 

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[elle]

What I have learned about inscriptions on ecclesiastical bells is that sometimes they serve a function and sometimes they do not. Most bell inscriptions like Jason's are merely dedictory...like you said Panfilo...this one could have been going to the church in Santo Domingo to honor the year the reconstruction was done.
I've seen several bells now with the spelling "ANNO," and the term, "ANO DE"...well done Panfilo!

So many times early founders, whether working with Latin or with their mother tongue, were careless in the matter of spelling. I went through my book of ecclesiastical ornaments and there were many cases letters were jumbled according to no rule at all...ocassionally bell founders even reversed the order of their inscriptions...making me read the letters in reverse for a line to make any sense.

 

[Chagy]

With all due respect to all the experts in the matter…. its is just my humble opinion...The word Anno means year but I believe there is no language to relate it too....It is not Latin that's for sure...in Latin it would be ann-, anni-, annu-, enn-, enni- (Latin: year, yearly) I'm almost sure its some kind of mixture of languages used by the religious... Like Anno Domini

For exmple in Spanish today's date would be 11 de agosto de 2009
"Annode 1635" often different cultures will mix languages and come up with their own words. But then again this is just my humble opinion....

The bell was ether on its way to a new or re-established Mission or Church or coming back to Rome from a Mission or Church that was no longer operating…..

Not because elle is my research partner but I do like her theory…why? Well too much coincidence that in that same year this one vessel was bound to Buenos Aires…It doesn’t have to be the mission that elle mentioned in Argentina but it could very well be for a mission close by, Paraguay or Brazil…..

More later,

Chagy…..

 

[elle]

Dear Watson (Chagy):

You are brilliant with your suggestion of Santa Maria de Fe (St. Mary of Faith) in Paraguay...but now you got me on another interest and I am neglecting my own book and research...
I'm having a discrepency with the date of this mission...as some references do say 1635...others say later years. I found a detailed book just on this one reduction (mission area) and I can try to get it tonight at another library. I do not mind going out of my way to research Santa Maria because its history is of great importance...reflected in the beautiful film, THE MISSION, with Jeremy Irons.
I shall pursue this reference and give an update on this mission's past soon!

ps...It was started by the Jesuits...and the name..."Santa Maria" fits well with the bell's inscription.

 

[ScubaFinder]

Muchas Gracias Luis and Laura....if you guys are research partners, I'd better find my treasure quick before you guys locate it all.

Here are some more pictures from this site, and our excavation there just for kicks.

 

[Chagy]

To add to Panfilo’s post on Las Mercedes... the fact that is was reconstructed in 1635 is very interesting but even more interesting the fact that a bell tower was added in 1635.

Rodrigo de Liendo began construction of the Church of Las Mercedes in 1528. The building consists of a wide, domed nave with side chapels between buttresses, a high choir space, octagonal apse, and baroque main altar. In 1635 a bell tower was added. Originally the church belonged to the order of La Merced, but since 1910 it's been run by the Capuchin Fathers

 

[mariner]

The word Anno means year but I believe there is no language to relate it too....It is not Latin that's for sure...in Latin it would be ann-, anni-, annu-, enn-, enni- (Latin: year, yearly) I'm almost sure its some kind of mixture of languages used by the religious... Like Anno Domini
Chagy…..

Chaggy,

I am reaching back over 40 years to the days when I was taught Latin by Jesuits, but I think that "Anno Domini" is perfectly good Latin, meaning "in the year of the Lord".

I think that on the bell, the "De" is strictly redunadant, as "Anno" means "in the year" but including the "de" is just the same as somebody saying "In the year of 1635" rather than "In the year 1635", where you could say that the "of" is redundant. Both are acceptable in English, and I think both are acceptable in Latin.

Sorry, don't mean to be picky in a thread that has produced such good ideas and information, not least from yourself.

Mariner

 

[Chagy]

Dear Mariner,

With all due respect…If you look for a Latin to English dictionary online you will be surprised to see that the word anno is not exactly Latin how ever it’s a Latin slang or a mixture of Medieval, Vulgar, Ecclesiastical, Christian or Late Latin. Actually I believe it came from Medieval Latin.

Here is a Latin Dictionary http://www.math.ubc.ca/~cass/frivs/latin/latin-dict-full.html you can look it up your self and see that year is annus

But please correct me if I’m wrong..I’m here to learn

 

[mariner]

Chagy,

Latin nouns have differnt endings to reflect the way they are used in a sentence. There are twelve forms (or more exactly cases), six singular and six plural, and there are three different sets of nouns, called declensions, each with different endings. There are also male and female endings. Annus is what they call a second declension male noun, and has the following forms:

Case Singular form Meaning Plural form Meaning

Nominative annus a year (subject of sentence) anni years (subject of sentence)
Vocative anne year (when speaking to one) anni years (speaking to them)
Accusative annum year (when object of sentence) annos years (when onject of sentence)
Genetive anni of a year annorum of the years
Dative anno to or for (or in) a year annis to or for years
Ablative anno by, with or from a year annis by with or from years

Of course, for some nouns, the case is meaningless. You'll never be speaking to a year, which is when you use the Vocative case.

Dominus, meaning Lord or Master, follows the same format, so "Anno Domini" is "In the year" (Dative singular) "of the Lord" (Genetive singular).

There is a similar process for verbs, adjectives, adverbs etc. In the good old days, you had to learn all of these by heart, which is why I can still remember them after all these years. Those Jesuits have a lot to answer for, though Latin comes in handy when looking at old maps. Greek has an even more complex structure, and many modern languages, such as French, have similar gramatical structures. You have to be very careful when looking up words in a dictionary, because the form (and the spelling) they show there is often quite different from individual usages.

Sorry, Chagy, but you did ask. Again, I really did not want to be pedantic about it. I'd swap my Latin for your practical knowledge any day, although the real trick is to gather together a team with complementary skills and knowledge, isn't it, as demonstrated so well by this particular thread.

LOL

Mariner

 

[ivan salis]

annode 1635 === correctly in the modern form (anno de) ==anno (in the year) de --(of) 1635---- in "modern think" made in the year 1635--- the anos ---single "n" (meaning year dids not catch on till about 1700 before then 2 nn's were commonly used )-- and the space between the anno and de was omitted .

 

[Chagy]

Dear Mariner,

I stand corrected….Thanks for the Latin lesson…LOL…. You were not pedantic in any way I appreciate you taking the time to correct me. And yes here in Tnet we make a great team and it’s a pleasure and an honor to be able to share with such a talented group of people.

 

[elle]

For all the history detective followers out there...
I was able get the book on the Paraguay missions this evening.
I had been weary of the date mentioned in the website for Santa Maria de Fe which said 1635.
When I double check mission dates in many books from the 1800's and ones writtten by the Jesuits...I usually get the real truth.
Sure enough...this mission was established in 1647 and not 1635.

I did learn many interesting facts, though, from this book written by C.J. McNaspy, S.J.
For instance, if one tours of the mission ruins in Paraguay, a stop at the St. Ignacio museum is a must. This church was completed in 1694 and once contained some 1,600 paintings on the ceiling. One sentence caught my eye and was somewhat strange considering our recent investigations. It said that several documents, including some pages copied by the Guarani Indians, and a 1635 letter from King Philip IV, survives under glass there.

 

[rgecy]

Guys, I am just sitting back in awe! It is absolutely amazing what you guys have put together! You don't find this much collaboration on many sites to solve a puzzle like this.

Congrats Jason and hope to see you when you are back in the states.

Robert

 

[lamar]

Dear mariner,
Bravo, my friend! It seems someone else paid a bit of attention in Latin classes! I´ve been attempting to explain that the words ANNO DE are not Latin at all, rather they are the antiquated Spanish words for AÑO DE. The NN would be the correct spelling form of the word and the Ñ is the contracted form, however both forms may be used interchangably and still be considered the correct spelling.

The only difference in the Spanish word ANNO and the Latin word is the pronounciation. In Spanish the NN (or Ñ) is pronounced as an N-Y and in Latin it is prounounced as two separate N sounds.

Also, the words ANNO DE do not necessarily mean (In the) YEAR OF, my friend. In this particular case, the correct Spanish to English literal translation would be FOUNDED IN THE YEAR or ESTABLISHED IN. This would mean, therefore that the mission was established, or built, in 1635, not the year the bell was founded or the year the sailing vessel went awreck. This bell could have been cast at any time after 1635 AD until the time of the Jesuit expulsion in 1767, which will make trying to identify the wreck more difficult.
Your friend.
LAMAR

 

[ivan salis]

thanks lamar --- so "annode" in this case meens "anno de" the pre 1700 antiquited spanish "corrupted" wording from latin --- latin is of course the (mother tongue) upon which spanish langauge is based -- modern useage of course would be "anos de" === so the meaning is ( built / constructed / established/ founded) in 1635 ---- as in the mission it was meant for was built / made / established in the year 1635 ---- I very loosely speaking used the term "made in the year of " where maybe I should have more properly said "constructed / made/ manufactored ( also with the meaning of established or founded in the case of a mission) in the year of " 1635--- I was thinking the bell was "made" in 1635 --- but form what you say -- indeed it looks like the "mission" was made or "established" in 1635 --- since a bell could only be "made" in 1635 ( clearly a bell would not be "established"****) however a "mission" would be both "made" and "established" as well. --- so it was a jesuit order mission bell meant for a mission"established" in 1635 and shipped some time after 1635 * but before they were expelled in 1767---(132 year time frame) however --I personally think it dates between 1635 and 1700 (65 year time frame) based upon the factor that the shorted term "ano de" caught on about 1700 and the double "nn"'s faded out of common useage afterward.

 

[Panfilo]

For all those of you that find colonial bells interesting I would recommend the site below which is by far the most complete and graphically illustrative I have come across. I think that there is an unnecessary discussion regarding the “anno de” inscription on Jason’s bell that is all too common as you can verify in reviewing similar bells. Cathedral bells were very elaborate with long and complicated epigraphies sometimes including the names of the priests that ordered them and several psalms. Also bear in mind what Joaquin, the bell expert mentioned that the bell foundries were normally run by nomads who made bells and sold them for whatever reason, others more ornate and expensive were made at reputable foundries by special commission and for a specific cathedral or church. Jason’s beautiful bell is apparently a run of the mill 1635 bell that could have had many different uses and homes at the time, not one unique or specific religious order and the main characteristic it has is the date which attests to when it was made, not when it was transported much less when it sunk. The most interesting facts about this bell will be revealed by Jason when the dated coins appear and we know when the wreck actually took place and what was the nationality of the ship, where it was headed. This will tie in all these other facts together and we’ll know the rest of the story.

http://campaners.com/php/campanes1.php?numer=421

http://campaners.com/

 

[lamar]

Dear ivan salis;
If the bell is a replacement for one which was cracked, dropped, stolen, consumed by fire, etc, then it would have most likely been a reasonable copy of the original, therefore the NN would have still been in effect. Also, many groups did not succomb well to changes, especially in their language, therefore the best advice would be to start in 1635 and working one's way forward in history from that point. After 1767, the odds of having a Jesuit bell replaced with a like bell by a group of missionaries of another order would be slim indeed, therefore if it were me, I would first concentrate my efforts on locating a mission which had been established in 1635.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
I was going to post a link to a uTube video clip which depicted a Roman Centurion giving a rather extreme Latin lesson to someone, however, there was a foul word in it at the end, which I was previously unaware of, therefore I removed the post. If anyone would like to see the video clip, do a Google search for *extreme Latin lesson*.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Bobadilla]

Hello everybody,

First of all, as a member of NCR team, I would like to give you all many thanks for your so valuable help and expertise that you are giving us on the bell. Thanks to you I am personally also learning a lot about Jesuit bells, the area I have had knowledge gaps so far.....Your deductions are great and it helps us to narrow the search for the fate of the shipwreck we have got. As I already stated, I am not expert in religious inscriptions and bells but I have one questiosn for you, who ARE experts in the topic: Could not be any hidden meaning in 19 stars that decorate the cross? The number of the stars I mean, perhaps some date...? As you wrote, Jesuits loved symbols and hidden meanings.....Just a thought.

By the way Chagy, my dear friend, thanks for the "coordinates" in AGI. I have already sent them to my friends in Seville archive to check it out. When Jason flies to Flroida, he will surely take you two other "planchas" for your new Spa that I left with him for you.... and have one Corona (at least) on my health....If everything goes well, I could come for couple of days to Florida by the end of ther year as well.

Regards and thanks to all,
Lobo (Bobadilla)

 

[elle]

Panfilo...you explained it so well in the above post...

We could spend many more hours searching for missions and churches that were established in the year of 1635...as this date is the indication of the bell's dedication...honoring the start and existence of a particular establishment (a whole complex or just the dedication of a small portion of a complex...worthy of noting the event in time).

It is satisfying as researchers to come up with the possibilities of where the bell could be going, isn't it? It sparks the imagination, and for me, everytime I take on a new case...I enrich myself with more history and information to help me in current research projects. I thank everyone out there for letting me investigate this intriguing bell mystery.
For the avid readers here on Tnet, we've been able to engross ourselves into so many areas of history because of Jason's bell...and I'm so grateful. I know many people think religious artifacts are on the boring side...but to me...they pave the past and lead us to the answers why things happened as they did long ago; this is because the church played one of the most extraordinary roles in early colonial history.

I'm going to continue searching more possibilities on missions/churches of 1635 because I know I become more educated as I do this...and maybe an answer to Jason's bell will MIRACOUSLY appear! I'll keep everyone informed to what I find and I am still waiting to hear back from Jesus-Maria in Argentina. Who knows...maybe the archives will reveal there that they lost one of their first bells coming over. One never knows!

Laura