Nice Bell Found at Shipwreck Site...with pictures.

Dear elle;
You wrote;
I want to work along side a wonderful group of brains who all share the same enthusiasm in solving a mystery
Perhaps you've inadvertantly wandered into the wong shop, m'lady. ;D

Moving onwards, our mystery bell may contain more clues than the inscriptions might lead one to assume, if we delve a bit deeper into it. Since I've expressed an interest in antique bells, some of my more scholarly contacts have taken it upon themselves to turn me into a bell expert, whether I wish to become one or not. As it is, all standard, off the shelf, run of the mill, ho-hum, plain Jane bells were cast following a strict formula in regards to the alloying and dimensions. This was to help ensure uniform tonality in the bells. This formulii was strictly adhered to by all bell makers throughout Western Europe, with only slight variations existing between the various casters, or founders as they were known.

All standard bells were cast following a 13 to 1 formula, that meaning the thickest part of the bell, called either the brow or the bow, would be 13th of the bell's opening diameter. If one can accurately measure the thickness of the bell at the thickest point, then divide that measurement into the mouth's opening, the sum *should* be 13. If it's anything other than a multiple of 13, the bell in question would have been meant to have been utilized as part of a bell gang, that being multiples bells grouped in a bell tower.

Next, if the alloy composition of the bell could be determined, then this might also assist in determining the bell's intended destination All high quality bells were cast using a alloy formula of 3:1 copper and tin. TO break it down into percentages, copper comprised 78% of the total alloy with tin comprising the other 22%. This particular alloy formula is known as bell metal and it is still in use today by cymbal and musical bell makers.

Higher quality bells were often alloyed with a slight higher concentration of copper, thus making the bell more costly This was said to produce a softer, more melodious tone and special care needed to be taken during the cooling process to ensure the bell would not suffer from internal fractures, thus rendering the bell useless after a short period of use.

Next, if one were able to determine this information with some accuracy, then we could proceed to all possible founders which are known to have cast like examples in the same general region as the birthplace of the bell in question. Further information can be gleaned from the characters on the bell's inscription at this stage and they can be compared to surviving exampples of any one of a number of founding houses. The characters which were cast into a bell using the sand mold technique were not unique to one particular bell, rather were part of the founding house's own particular typeset and the same characters would be used over and over, and thus it is possible to determine a bell's place of origin by comparing the typeset characters, in exactly the same manner that law enforcement is able to determine the make and model of a typewriter which typed a particular letter.

If one were able to gather all of this information with a reasonable amount of accuracy, then it would be a rather simple matter of determining which Jesuit group in Western Europe originally ordered the bell. In the 1600s, all bell founders were guild members, that meaning that they had formed a type of loosely structured union, and they determined price scheduling amongst their members to ensure a fair profit for their labors. Jesuits, like all other Europeans, would have honored a contract with their local bell founder, and if the particular Jesuit group which ordered the bell can be determined, then it becomes a mere matter of contacting the librarian staff of the Jesuit archives in Rome and getting the purchase history of said bell!

As an aside, the Jesuit archivists are a more friendlier and more helpful group than our beloved librarians at the Vatican archives, AVM, and you may find any one of a number of Jesuit scholars at the Jesuit archives willing to assist you. THe Jesuit archives are cataloged by individual communities and if we can discover which community ordered the bell, then getting the rest of the bell'shistory, including it's final destination, would be a walk in the park.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

Dear marty-graw;
You asked:
Isn't the name Maria the spanish version of the name Mary? As in mother of Jesus.
Maria is not Spanish, it's the Latinized version of the Hebrew name Miryam. Most Western European Romance languages use the name Maria in it's original Latin form, including all dialects of Spanish, Italian and Portuguese. The French use Marie and in English it's Mary. And yes, the name on the bell is representitive of the Virgin Mary, the mother of our Lord, Jesus Christ.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

Hey Bro,

Sorry I had not surfaced any sooner but Lucy’s mom passed away on the 28th and she has been in Colombia ever since…So as you can imagine I have enough on my plate right now..
Panfilo, lamar, Sherlock Holmes elle and other have done a great job….

You know you are a lucky man my brother….In 1639 there was only one vessel bound to Santo Domingo from Spain and its not in the list of the vessels that made it back to Spain.
“San Jorge” Urca estratega de 580 toneladas, Maestre y Propietario Simon de Zuaco
Your bell could have been on its way to Mexico for the Babiacora mission established in 1639 situated on the Kio Sonora…..

Bro I should be getting paid for this…..LOL

By the way I have 2 suitcases full of your cloth in my garage that you left in my Clermont house..

I hope this helps..

Chagy……

Panfilo, de que parte de Colombia eres? Mi esposa es de Cali
 

Mariner and Chagy:
Indeed it would appear to us that the year on the bell is 1639 but no, that is a five at the end, not a nine. The difference is that the nines are completely closed, the fives are open. Look at the example below, that is 1705 not 1709. In the upper part you can see the numbers 123456789 and tell the clear difference between the 5's and the 9's. I should of gotten an "A" in my Paleography class at the Catholic University here for that same dumb mistake, I got a "B" instead. Sorry to hear about your loss Chagy, I'm in Bogota.
 

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Luis...
I went to check out the mission of Babiacora in Sonora, Mexico, which is indeed 1639.

I found one in Sonora while reading...only one...from 1635...a Jesuit mission.

It is in Hubert Howe Bancroft's book from 1883, "The History of the Pacific States of North America: North American states." In 1635 Padre Mendez established a mission at Ures...no name listed for this mission.
 

Panfilo,

AMDG

I bow to your greater experience, particularly of Spanish number formats and conventions. I have never seen an English manuscript or artefact containing a five written that way, but neither have I ever seen a nine with the upper boundary incomplete.

LDS

Anybody taught by Jesuits will recognize these two sets of letters, which were placed at the start and end of every written assignment, and my experience is to always expect the unexpected when it comes to the Jesuits.

Thanks again for the wonderful input you and Elle have made to this thread. Most enlightening.

Mariner
 

Well I’m no expert in numbers but the last number does look weird and it does look allot like the “5” Panfilo posted. The “3” on the bell does not look like the “3” posted by Panfilo….But anyways I don’t want to get into that... I’ll let you guys figure that out….

Well I looked at 1635 and also in that year only one vessel was send to Santo Domingo “San Antonio de Padua” a 300 ton Urca. Maestre Pedro Arnas

All the best,

Chagy........
 

Chagy, sorry to hear about Lucy's mother, give her a big hug for me, and tell her Jason said "Losiento mi amor". Thank you for your input to this thread, it is most appreciated bro. I will be back in the states in a few weeks, I'm flying through Miami, so don't think I'm not stopping by to say hola! See you soon my brother, I miss you.

Jason
 

Jason, I’m just curious, the Monte Christi wreck in the north part of Dominican Republic, off the tiny island of Cabra, though the dates are off by twenty years, is that in the general vicinity of where you are, same side of the island? Sadly this wreck has been plundered for decades and the few coins found date in the 1650's.
 

Jas,

Looking forward to those Coronas!!!!!!

After further research I have to take back the information provided in my last post.

The “San Antonio de Pauda” made it back to Spain.

Elle,

Girl, once again I take my hat off!!!

In 1635, 29 vessels were send to N.E. o T.F. / Angola….out of those 29 vessels one was send to Buenos Aires, Argentina / Guineo o Angola…..

So it is possible that the bell was on its way to Argentina...

“San Miguel” Urca 220 tons Maestre Diego de Ayala nevermade it back to Spain

Watson….
 

Dear group;
I think the word ANNODE may be solved, my friends. It's antique Spanish for "In The Year Of". When I was informed of this, I immediately asked that if ANNO DE means "In The Year Of", in Spanish then why are there two Ns, and why isn't the word ANNO spelled as AĂ‘O with the ~ character above the N as it is represented in Spanish? And also, why was not a space place between the ANNO and the DE words?

I was then informed that the character above the N (known as the tilde) came into being as Spanish scribes looked for ways to shorten common letter combinations in order to make sentences shorter, thus saving valuable parchment, which was expensive back then. I was told that the tilde character ~ over the N is actually a small N and it is placed there to represent the NN. It seems that the Ă‘ was instituted by Spanish scribes in the 1500s, but it did not become a part of the Spanich lexicon until the mid 1700s, and that the Ă‘ character was only utilized by scribes. All other Spaniards, including founders and stone carvers continued to use the double N, at least until the early 1700s, at which time the Ă‘ character was accepted by Spanish speakers worldwide.

As far as the word spacing is concerned, it was a very common practice in those days to eliminate the space immediately before the word DE as there did not exist any words in the Spanish language which terminated in the letters DE, and it is only assimilated foreign words which end in DE, therefore the space before the DE is not necessary.

And so it seems that this mystery is good hands, therefore I must beg leave of this discussion in order to pursue other interests. I wish everyone good luck in ther search and bountiful fruits of their labors.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

Thanks for that Lamar, and best of luck in your endeavors.

Luis, great work, and thanks for the tip. Coronas very soon my brother.

PanFilo.....general area, yes...but we are around 60 miles east of there. Our lease extends 100 miles from the Haitian border on the west to Puerto Plata on the east, including all of Puerto Plata and the 7 brothers chain of islands just outside Monte Cristi bay. The Monte Cristi wreck or Pipe Wreck as the archaeologists have dubbed it, was given back to the Dominican Government so that colleges could run archaeological field schools on it. Nova University, University of San Diego, Indiana U. and several others have worked on the site. We also did the same for Bahia Isabela, there are several of Columbus' ships laying in that bay and those should be excavated by academics. Not that we aren't very good archaeologists, even without university degrees. :)

Jason
 

Hola Compadre,

We feel both with my wife very sorry about the mom of Lucy. Please, send her our love and many regards. You have not written me for a long time, brother. Find couple of minutes and send me some lines what are you doing, what projects you have in mind, future prospects and generally about your life. You know Luis, you and Lucy are always in our hearts.

Best regards,
Lobo
 

Here is the info sent by the curator of the bell museum in Valladolid, Spain. Joaquin's native language is Spanish, but you can get his meaning easily. Interesting reading.
________________________________________________________________________________

Dear Jason: I am trying to send you some reflections on the bell whose pictures sent me. In the first place, let me to explain that Jesuits did not have never special bells (that is, made especially for his “missions”) except for in some “reduction” of Río de la Plata (Argentina) where had blacksmiths that manufactured bells of iron (the usual metal is bronze) in different tones to combine with little “chapels” or orchestras that formed with Indians. There are not bellfounders known in those missions although there would be many craftsmen. The bellfounders used to be nomads and in America had very few. Bells, given that they needed a specialization high degree for his manufacture and an oven for his foundry shop, ran away with from Spain by boat. If there would be some made bell for Jesuits and for exclusive use of they, is logical that put AMDG (ad maiorem Dei gloriam= to great God glory), that was his motto. The bell of you just has an enrollment in the upper part in which puts IHS (Jesus homini –hominum- salvator= Jesus savior of the man or the men), very frequent in the bells from the fifteenth century until the twentieth century. What seems me snoopier is the ANNO OF, since if was correct Latin would be enough ANNO, that means year and he does not need “of”. Wants to say that was made or fused in the year of 1635 (the 5 was written thus during all the seventeenth century) and the OF is one “españolización” of the Latin expression. Apart from that he is type of bell well done but unsigned (in that period was strange that the bellfounders put their stamp: rather was used to to put who ordered and paid the bell) Is in the nineteenth century when the bellfounders turn to sedentarism, stay in the cities and they begin to discover advantages of the advertising, which consequently they start to sign their works. I dont know if this help you in any way. If you need more specific information, please let me know. Best wishes
Joaquin
 

Hello Panfilo,

Just to answer your question about the wreck close to Cayo Cabra in Montecristi. You mean probably famous "Pipe Wreck". This wreck has produced literally thousands of clay pipes over the last 20 years and it has been excavated both legally and illegally for a long time. It lies just 70 meters south of the island between cayo and shore in about 4 meters of water in muddy bottom. A&M Texas University tema under the Professor Jerome Hall had their field camp there with archaeological students every two years in the past based on contract with the Dominican government. I was there once with them for couple of days and they found some parts of olive jars as well apart from lot of pipes and other interesting artifacts. You can still find complete research about this shipwreck published on internet, just search "Pipe Wreck Montecristi".
I hope it helps.
Regards,
Lobo (Bobadilla)
 

Thank you, Jas, for writing Spain. Joaquin's reply is quite interesting.
I am fascinated with the mystery surrounding "ANNO OF 1635."
Joaquin is right...the bell maker could have simply put "YEAR 1635" which is the correct Latin.
And the fact that the maker was trying to save room in the first place with cramming the "DE" without a space is mysterious.
This all may mean nothing and just what the typer did...period.
I do have a speculation, though, that maybe there is more the bell is saying with the "ANNODE."

"Year of 1635" ...is there more to the rest of this sentence (never written or implied in the cross design underneath)?

It is a unique bell indeed...one possessing a mystery we cannot stop thinking about!
 

Guys,

I’m trying to see what else I can find.... in the mean time…..

Elle,

Look into the mission Santa Maria de Fe 1635 Paraguay …

Lubitos Compadre,

Look into the Vessel San Miguel a 220 ton Urca, Maestre Diego de Ayala this vessel was send to Buenos Aires and there is no record of it returning to Spain…Chances are that it stopped in DR on his way to B.A……I don’t have an exact date but you may want to look into the month of August because a strong hurricane hit the coast of DR


More later,

Chagy…..
 

Jason I think it would be appropriate to conclude from Joaquin’s email that:
1) There are no unique Jesuit bells as such and that the IHS anagram simply stands for Jesus.
2) The “IHS Maria” anagram is very common and does not in itself reflect anything about the origin of the bell.
3) Joaquin finds it unique or strange that the bell has the “de” after the “anno”.
4) The fact that there is no foundry stamp is normal for that time period.

These experts’ comments will open the way for you to look more clearly as to the possibilities of where that bell was going to or coming from. Maybe a Jesuit mission but not necessarily, could have been Dominican or as I suggested it could have been going to the Mercedes church that was being reconstructed that same year plus we now know it had its bells stolen by Blackbeard.
There is a similar bell from the same approximate age that also has the “IHS Maria anno de” inscription so I don’t think there is anything out of the ordinary of using this combination of words.

Antiguedad: Año 1657
Dimensiones: 65 x 130p x 52 x 6 cm. - Perfil romano
DescripciĂłn: Inscripciones (letras mayĂşsculas) circulares: (tercio) IHS * MARIA * XPS VIVIT * XPS REIGNAT *XPS NOS DEFENDAT * ANNO * DE * 1657*
Otras observaciones:
(JESUS, MARIA. CRISTO VIVE, CRISTO REINA, CRISTO NOS DEFIENDA. AĂ‘O DE 1657)
 

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