New site?...with different clue versions?

[deducer]

Wouldn't that be 'I am the HORSE of the holy faith"?

I suspect that this phrase was deliberately made to be ambiguous, e.g., leaving out "yo soy" or even avoiding the phrase "La Santa Fe" which would make things a bit too obvious as to the nature of the horse on the H/P stone, and what its role is.

From Joe Ribaudo on the other site:

In a story about early California missionaries, a priest is quoted, "Yo soy el caballo de Santa Fe." In the context in which the phrase is used, the priest clearly means: "I am the horse (the servant) of the Holy Faith." In another story, a tax collector in conversation with a wealthy merchant in New Mexico in the early 19th century says, "No tengo la culpa, Señor. Yo soy el caballo de Santa Fe, nada mas." Here he clearly means: "It’s not my fault, sir. I am the horse (the servant) of Santa Fe (the seat of the territorial government), nothing more."

 

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[wrmickel1]

111 18' 07" W
33 02' 03" N

(That's 33 2'3.00"N/111 18'7.00"W on Google Earth)

Heck of a coincidence then

I see none, Way out there Potbelly. Unless Pot in your name means Cannabis.

Heck of a coincidence there.

babymick1

 

[azdave35]

I see none, Way out there Potbelly. Unless Pot in your name means Cannabis.

Heck of a coincidence there.

babymick1

only if your name means jim beam

 

[Al D]

Allen as I stated earlier the maps are a fustercluck. Do you believe the map's value on the stones, could have been, altered more than once at least twice? Is it possible, that 1847 was put on there to deceive, and that it means the date(which most people would think) but it actually, also means something else also? IMO I think that as time went forward people added things for various reasons. For example, someone felt it was a distance but they were anglo so they converted Vara's down to feet but it came to let's say about 1850 feet and then they realized if they used 1847 that would mislead people, but not them or their associates. I know you think it is stepping stone info, a sort of progression it could be. I also you said nothing is of value with the possible distances. So my question to you does it seem possible that there have been altercations to the origanal? If that is the case it would seem to me that anything is possible.

Regardless of how the stones are perceived as fake or real, they took some effort to make, the 1847 is carved with care, a fine stone workers job, however, the “Pedro” and “Miguel” scratchings are just that, scratchings. If anything was added later to deceive, it would be these as well as all others like them, IMO

 

[arcana-exploration]

Regardless of how the stones are perceived as fake or real, they took some effort to make, the 1847 is carved with care, a fine stone workers job, however, the “Pedro” and “Miguel” scratchings are just that, scratchings. If anything was added later to deceive, it would be these as well as all others like them, IMO

You are correct, I took a class in 2 and three-dimensional graphics and drawing, the large 1847 was done by someone very skilled. The 1847 on the base of the Preist Stone not at all? Two different makers or am I overthinking?

 

[Al D]

You are correct, I took a class in 2 and three-dimensional graphics and drawing, the large 1847 was done by someone very skilled. The 1847 on the base of the Preist Stone not at all? Two different makers or am I overthinking?

Yes, different makers IMO

 

[Oroblanco]

Regardless of how the stones are perceived as fake or real, they took some effort to make, the 1847 is carved with care, a fine stone workers job, however, the “Pedro” and “Miguel” scratchings are just that, scratchings. If anything was added later to deceive, it would be these as well as all others like them, IMO

Travis Tumlinson stated in the LIFE magazine interview that he had deliberately altered some markings and put electrical tape over others, to allow the magazine photos to be shot. So yes there were alterations done, by Travis T. himself, at least if he could be believed.

 

[Al D]

Travis Tumlinson stated in the LIFE magazine interview that he had deliberately altered some markings and put electrical tape over others, to allow the magazine photos to be shot. So yes there were alterations done, by Travis T. himself, at least if he could be believed.

I am familiar with that story, but I thought that it was Travis Marlowe, AKA Clarence Mitchell who taped the stones for the Life article, didn’t Clarence acquire the stones after Travis Tumlinson died?

 

[Al D]

I see none, Way out there Potbelly. Unless Pot in your name means Cannabis.

Heck of a coincidence there.

babymick1

Familiar territory for you mick?

 

[sdcfia]

Forgot to add this, something Steve had posted about Santa Fe (NM) being a relatively poor isolated outpost of the Spanish colonial empire.

Santa Fe was the capital of the province of New Mexico. The governor's palace was located there.

By 1847 Santa Fe NM was the terminus of the famous Santa Fe Trail, which had been pioneered by Spanish explorers in the late 18th century. The city was an important trading center between Mexico and the USA, involving silver, hides, and slaves among other commodities.

So while that post about Santa Fe being relatively poor and isolated, it was only for a portion of its history. By the 1840s it was far more important and more prosperous.

I'll maintain my observations about Santa Fe in Post #1219. Despite some moderate mining activities, nobody that I'm aware of has reported or even hinted at a major accumulation of wealth in the area. The fur trade was lucrative for a while, yes, but the trappers were adept at avoiding control and taxation by NM officials. Let's face it - the Spanish/Mexican officials in Santa Fe were hardly the best and the brightest. Most advancements in the area were fostered by the Franciscans, and they had some major problems of their own.

It is true that Santa Fe benefitted from the opening of the Santa Fe Trail. The tax revenues did increase, but the real money in NM was made during the first part of the 19th century by the Taos trappers and US merchants like the Bents. We have to remember that Santa Fe was an important stop on the Trail, but not the terminus. The Santa Fe Trail actually ended at Chihuahua MX, where most of the money was exchanged. If I could negotiate TNet's search engine, I'd provide some good links about this from my past posts - but I can't seem to ever get results - so I'll recommend a few books instead. Commerce of the Prairies by Josiah Gregg (scathing description of Santa Fe), Fur Trappers and Traders of the Far Southwest by LeRoy R. Hafen, and Down the Santa Fe Trail and into Mexico by Susan Shelby Magoffin, 1846-1847.

 

[somehiker]

Travis Tumlinson stated in the LIFE magazine interview that he had deliberately altered some markings and put electrical tape over others, to allow the magazine photos to be shot. So yes there were alterations done, by Travis T. himself, at least if he could be believed.

I am familiar with that story, but I thought that it was Travis Marlowe, AKA Clarence Mitchell who taped the stones for the Life article, didn’t Clarence acquire the stones after Travis Tumlinson died?

And it was Bob Bair, a friend of Travis' who told Mel Brower, a former investor and helper in Richard Peck's investigation into the Tumlinsons, that Travis had told him it was he who carved the "zeros" on the back of the stone heart. No other added or altered markings were mentioned by anyone involved in the investigation, and the "zeros" were not mentioned in the Life Magazine article.

For Mike, who has on several occasions related the "finger in the hole" part of the story, it was actually within the Life Magazine article where that "clue" appeared . I say "clue", because it came from Mitchell, rather than some other friend or family member.

From the article:

"Undismayed, Marlowe concentrated on finding a landmark indicated by a deep hole chiseled in one of the stone tablets. Nearby on the tablet is a dot. The man who owned the tablets before Marlowe often poked a finger into that hole and said, "When I find that, I've got the million. "

Anyone understand why it's a clue ?
That there are actually two clues in that quote.

 

[Al D]

And it was Bob Bair, a friend of Travis' who told Mel Brower, a former investor and helper in Richard Peck's investigation into the Tumlinsons, that Travis had told him it was he who carved the "zeros" on the back of the stone heart. No other added or altered markings were mentioned by anyone involved in the investigation, and the "zeros" were not mentioned in the Life Magazine article.

For Mike, who has on several occasions related the "finger in the hole" part of the story, it was actually within the Life Magazine article where that "clue" appeared . I say "clue", because it came from Mitchell, rather than some other friend or family member.

From the article:

"Undismayed, Marlowe concentrated on finding a landmark indicated by a deep hole chiseled in one of the stone tablets. Nearby on the tablet is a dot. The man who owned the tablets before Marlowe often poked a finger into that hole and said, "When I find that, I've got the million. "

Anyone understand why it's a clue ?
That there are actually two clues in that quote.

Six zero’s, one million number with an R, maybe it is 1,000,000 Reals, which incidentally would require six mules to transport.
Just another weird idea

 

[PotBelly Jim]

I see none, Way out there Potbelly. Unless Pot in your name means Cannabis.

Heck of a coincidence there.

babymick1

There you go overthinking it again, Brother Mick...(I know that's an oxymoron, just bear with me)...the PotBelly in my name is a secret, requiring knowledge of the secret Passover of Loyola and how the ancient alchemists turned 2X4's into gold bars...how they turned placer into solid ore, and hid buckets of dyed amethyst in Hog Canyon...I can't reveal how any of that happened, but here's the answer:

The Potbelly in my name refers to...

my pot belly.

 

[arcana-exploration]

I know the feeling.



You may want to check out Dr. Glover's new book, if you're looking for information on Jacob Waltz. Dr. Oertel found that Waltz had attended Schloss Hohenheim in the Stuttgart area. Seems ol' Jake was an "Oconom" or economics major.

Kind of makes the story of Waltz sitting down and helping Julia figure out all her business debts...ring true?[/Q

Kind of interesting that Kino and Waltz both had a German - Austrian connection. Allan remarked earlier that early German miners might have used Roman numerals and were in the southwest early on (besides Waltz and his partner) What german miners were in the area shortly after Waltz?

Also, de Vaca lived and went native with the Pimas on his 8-year return trip, from the east, he would be it seems one of the earliest to reach the area? Is there any good info on him, would have reached the Gila? Do we know much of what his time was in the area?

 

[somehiker]

I suspect that this phrase was deliberately made to be ambiguous, e.g., leaving out "yo soy" or even avoiding the phrase "La Santa Fe" which would make things a bit too obvious as to the nature of the horse on the H/P stone, and what its role is.

From Joe Ribaudo on the other site:

Not ambiguous.......simply a title given to something seen and understood by the map maker as being relevant to the larger purpose of the task at hand.

Direct Translation: from https://www.spanishdict.com/translate/El Caballo de Santa Fe

El .........the
Caballo ........horse (correct spelling)
de ........from, of
Santa ....... holy, saint
Fe ....... faith

But why do the words "SANTA FE" also appear on the side of the H/P stone ?
And in between the "trail ?" and the "RIO" shown on the horse side of the stone, where both begin (or end)......also on the same side. While some may consider this a reference to the city of Santa Fe, NM., they are probably unaware of the existence of another "Santa Fe".....in Mexico City.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Fe_de_Mexico_(pueblo_hospital)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasco_de_Quiroga
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Fe,_Mexico_City

 

[wrmickel1]

There you go overthinking it again, Brother Mick...(I know that's an oxymoron, just bear with me)...the PotBelly in my name is a secret, requiring knowledge of the secret Passover of Loyola and how the ancient alchemists turned 2X4's into gold bars...how they turned placer into solid ore, and hid buckets of dyed amethyst in Hog Canyon...I can't reveal how any of that happened, but here's the answer:

The Potbelly in my name refers to...

my pot belly.

Well I got about 70 pounds of Amethyst a little to much to haul in there. But Dave told me who did. And 2 by 4’s don’t reflect back. And I’m about Finnish busting up the 325 pounds of ore I brought home with me in February. I never took Oro’s advice and saved any of the ore. I’ll post a picture of it and boy you and Dave will be upset and call me more names.

Babymick1

 

[Al D]

Not ambiguous.......simply a title given to something seen and understood by the map maker as being relevant to the larger purpose of the task at hand.

Direct Translation: from https://www.spanishdict.com/translate/El Caballo de Santa Fe

El .........the
Caballo ........horse (correct spelling)
de ........from, of
Santa ....... holy, saint
Fe ....... faith

But why do the words "SANTA FE" also appear on the side of the H/P stone ?
And in between the "trail ?" and the "RIO" shown on the horse side of the stone, where both begin (or end)......also on the same side. While some may consider this a reference to the city of Santa Fe, NM., they are probably unaware of the existence of another "Santa Fe".....in Mexico City.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Fe_de_Mexico_(pueblo_hospital)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasco_de_Quiroga
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Fe,_Mexico_City

Another interesting point, to me anyway
why is it SANTAFE and not SANTA FE?

 

[somehiker]

Another interesting point, to me anyway
why is it SANTAFE and not SANTA FE?

Wondered about, and posed that question on here myself once.
Don't really know why the two words seem to be used there as one......a place where 2 faiths became one ?
Or perhaps where the "holy" and "faith" are brought together under one roof.

Then again.....maybe the person who put that "SANTAFE" there, just didn't know it was supposed to be two words, rather than one.

On this example of artistic work by early converts to Christianity, a type of journal and map combined, they illustrated the date of their departure thus..... with a date glyph representing their own calendar year of "knife 1".

Is this knife and number one on the upper TS meant to show the same date ? The arrow between blade and handle seems to indicate the two are directly related to each other, and the curved line above the "1" directs the viewer's attention to the prominent triangle above the circle in circle on the face of the red stone heart. Something particularly important I assume.

That the odd "D" shaped symbol on the handle of the dagger resembles the depiction of the cavity in the "mountain" place glyph on the codice is especially interesting to me .

 

[arcana-exploration]

Wondered about, and posed that question on here myself once.
Don't really know why the two words seem to be used there as one......a place where 2 faiths became one ?
Or perhaps where the "holy" and "faith" are brought together under one roof.

Then again.....maybe the person who put that "SANTAFE" there, just didn't know it was supposed to be two words, rather than one.

On this example of artistic work by early converts to Christianity, a type of journal and map combined, they illustrated the date of their departure thus..... with a date glyph representing their own calendar year of "knife 1".

Is this knife and number one on the upper TS meant to show the same date ? The arrow between blade and handle seems to indicate the two are directly related to each other, and the curved line above the "1" directs the viewer's attention to the prominent triangle above the circle in circle on the face of the red stone heart. Something particularly important I assume.

That the odd "D" shaped symbol on the handle of the dagger resembles the depiction of the cavity in the "mountain" place glyph on the codice is especially interesting to me .

That one is interesting? Wayne, on the PH stone, what is the significance in your opinion of the small heart directly below the cross that the priest is holding out, the one farther down with the 4 is earth , but what is the little, trail marker (path marker small heart?)

 

[wrmickel1]

A-E

Its the only map that matches Waltz’s description to his Mine. You have to go down to get to it. And there are other mines around but you can’t see one from the other. Now I’ve found the others but can’t find the last one. And I know it’s has something to do with the Witch Map because this pic should not be there if it didn’t. 90 percent sure Waltz’s mine is the Witch Map.



And tell Dave I blurred this pic for a reason.

babymick1