New site?...with different clue versions?

[wrmickel1]

wayne...it is easier than you think to plate a rock...a easier and much faster way is brush plating...you could plate that rock in a few minutes once you apply the conductive paint...no messy tanks either...i'm guessing that's how mick did it

The pile of unfinished to the left is petrified wood. Sorry there fellow.



Babymi ck1

 

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[sdcfia]

That there is a hole.....and curved cut on the body of the Horse of Santafe certainly suggests the same should be present on the physical entity. The word above the hole, although made indistinct....possibly by erosion or wear over time.....is generally thought to be "PEDRO", and a reference to Pedro Peralta. But with a closer look, the "O" may actually be "A" . Given the carver's other spelling mistakes, wrong or even missing letters, I suspect the intended word was PIEDRA (rock/stone), not Pedro.

All three of these things, cut,stone and hole appear on the Sleeping Lady Treasure map.....as well as on site.

Only the single "A", which is why I always considered the upward slanting element of that one as a pointer to the hole.....since it couldn't have been done by accident, and that a straightedge was probably used.

On the other hand, maybe PEDRO actually refers to PEDRO, as in Pedro de Abalos, who claimed a rich gold mine in 1685, allegedly just north of the Caballos, the location of which was never discovered by others. Or the San Pedro placer deposits, found in the 1830s south of Santa Fe and suspected of being exploited much earlier.

 

[somehiker]

On the other hand, maybe PEDRO actually refers to PEDRO, as in Pedro de Abalos, who claimed a rich gold mine in 1685, allegedly just north of the Caballos, the location of which was never discovered by others. Or the San Pedro placer deposits, found in the 1830s south of Santa Fe and suspected of being exploited much earlier.

Don't forget Pedro de Alvarado, placed in charge by Cortez when he left Tenochtitlan to fight Narvaez, who among many other bold moves, ordered the temple massacre of May 20,1520.


HE played a huge role in the Spanish Conquests, explorations, and search for gold, and by all accounts he did alright.

Like NP and a few others, you seem convinced that "caballo" (singular) where it was used, refers to the Caballos (plural) of New Mexico.
What makes you so sure that "caballo" on that unusual map could not be the COBOLLO de SANTAFE shown on the H/P stone ?


You discount that map and red flag it due to it's association with Noss . I don't, having had some experience in dealings with individuals of similar history. Where what they had collected to show and or sell was entirely bogus.
It does help however, to be able to see and recognize what makes the difference......sometimes in the smallest details and their meaning.

 

[somehiker]

The pile of unfinished to the left is petrified wood. Sorry there fellow.



BabymiView attachment 1741815ck1

No one's buying today Mick.
Why don't you try for the banner page ?
Might get you some believers there, and more attention than this thread gets.
Besides, we already have the "show us your gold" thread, which is where you should be posting your gold pics.

Heck, this site might have someone nearby who could pay you a visit and vouch for your gold nuggets.
Might even buy some. Other members have steady customers who buy every flake of gold they find. Pay top dollar too, I've heard. One lives and has a car dealership in my town in fact. Should I have him give you a call?
Wouldn't be hard to set something up.

 

[sdcfia]

Don't forget Pedro de Alvarado, placed in charge by Cortez when he left Tenochtitlan to fight Narvaez, who among many other bold moves, ordered the temple massacre of May 20,1520.


HE played a huge role in the Spanish Conquests, explorations, and search for gold, and by all accounts he did alright.

Like NP and a few others, you seem convinced that "caballo" (singular) where it was used, refers to the Caballos (plural) of New Mexico.
What makes you so sure that "caballo" on that unusual map could not be the COBOLLO de SANTAFE shown on the H/P stone ?


You discount that map and red flag it due to it's association with Noss . I don't, having had some experience in dealings with individuals of similar history. Where what they had collected to show and or sell was entirely bogus.
It does help however, to be able to see and recognize what makes the difference......sometimes in the smallest details and their meaning.

That mountain range descriptor is indeed singular - the "Caballo Mountains" (Horse Mountains). The plural familiar usage, "Caballos", is a shortcut similar to calling the Rocky Mountains the Rockies. I'm quite sure that the NP map reference is indeed designating NM's Caballo Mountains. There's no verifiable provenance for the map other than NP's word. Based on posts on other subjects, I don't consider the late NP a reliable root of information, and his identifying Noss as the map's source doesn't strengthen my faith in the map either. Of course, I could be wrong.

As for the "spelling mistake", here's something rather odd from the Mariano Map (whose alleged provenance is also unverifiable), vis-a-vis those mountains: the range is labeled like so



Looks sorta like the "incorrect Os" were changed to As, and big ones too. What's up with that? I have no idea other than possibly some sort of corrected reference to the "spelling error"? Be that as it may, the point I was making in previous posts re the H/P stone is that a significant case can be made that the horse side seems to fit better on the NM side of the Gila than the AZ side.

 

[somehiker]

That mountain range descriptor is indeed singular - the "Caballo Mountains" (Horse Mountains). The plural familiar usage, "Caballos", is a shortcut similar to calling the Rocky Mountains the Rockies. I'm quite sure that the NP map reference is indeed designating NM's Caballo Mountains. There's no verifiable provenance for the map other than NP's word. Based on posts on other subjects, I don't consider the late NP a reliable root of information, and his identifying Noss as the map's source doesn't strengthen my faith in the map either. Of course, I could be wrong.

As for the "spelling mistake", here's something rather odd from the Mariano Map (whose alleged provenance is also unverifiable), vis-a-vis those mountains: the range is labeled like so

View attachment 1741936

Looks sorta like the "incorrect Os" were changed to As, and big ones too. What's up with that? I have no idea other than possibly some sort of corrected reference to the "spelling error"? Be that as it may, the point I was making in previous posts re the H/P stone is that a significant case can be made that the horse side seems to fit better on the NM side of the Gila than the AZ side.

I'm unfamiliar with the "Mariano" Map. So can't comment on your crop etc.
Although I may have it filed under a different name and topic, I should have noticed the "COBOLLO", and saved a copy to my projects file.
Care to post a copy or link ?
If so, I'll have a look.

 

[arcana-exploration]

I'm unfamiliar with the "Mariano" Map. So can't comment on your crop etc.
Although I may have it filed under a different name and topic, I should have noticed the "COBOLLO", and saved a copy to my projects file.
Care to post a copy or link ?
If so, I'll have a look.

Wayne any thoughts on Alvarez de Vaca? He was very early on, and went native and lived with the Pma's before returning to Mexico City after making his way from the east. It seems he was on his good behavior when he lived with them. He had to be one of the earliest Spaniards in the area and had a good relationship with the Pimas, maybe they shared info with him? Where is the best place to find info on him? What are your thoughts on him?

 

[markmar]

Steve

I would like to see Mariano map too.
I have told to Whiseyrat, who is interested in the Noss story and the gold caches in the Caballos mountains NM, where I believed to be the spot depicted in the NP lil map, and little after he came with pictures of a cave/shaft which has a wood chicken ladder like in the same photos taken by Noss. He didn't wrote how he have found that cave or where, and never update me with news of his research. Never mind, I understood he was not able to find the other spots, so I left it there , stopping to give info.

 

[sdcfia]

I pledged to the person who sent me a copy of the Mariano map not to make it public. It won't be put into the public domain by me, but one thing I will say - it is quite similar in some respects to the NP map, and as somehiker indicated, one could draw parallels with these two maps with the general layout of the horse stone. That said, I'm generally skeptical about all treasure maps that "surface."

 

[deducer]

What makes you think it has to be in Sonora.....the "SONORA" and "MEX", where the upper line wraps slightly around the stone to Sonora and the lower line toward the "M" on the priest side of the H/P stone ?
Sonora wasn't officially adopted for the name of the province until 1648.
The first recorded use of the name by the Spanish was by Coronado, who called one of the areas he passed through "Valle de la Sonora". No one really knows for sure where the name came from, but it may have come from the Opata word "sonotl", which means corn leaf. Opata is one of the dialects within the Uto-Aztecan language group, and likely spoken by the map maker, with Spanish as his second language.
MEX is an abbreviation obviously. But for what.....Mexico, Mexican or Mexica, also a Uto-Aztecan based word ?
Since it appears on this cliff face, identical to the way it has been lightly carved into the stone and opposite to the priest, and is directly above the face in the photo following, I am inclined believe "MEX" ica.......esp considering that which is recognizable from other sources in the third crop.

While the meaning of SANTAFE is ambiguous to some people, in that it either refers to "holy faith" or to a city or town, either in New Mexico or Mexico itself, I don't think there is any ambiguity regarding Sonora, Mex. It only means one thing.

It's significance is accented by the fact that we see it also on the NP map, and I've seen it on two other maps, including the Anno Mariano map.

What's interesting is that on all those maps, Sonora is the origin from which everything starts. The path, trail, dotted line or wavy line starts from a point labeled Sonora on all those maps.

The NP map originated through Doc Noss who had copied it off of one of Willie Daughitt's maps. Doc Noss was killed in spring of 1949, before Tumlinson allegedly "found" the maps later in that summer of 1949, according to Mitchell.

And the Anno Mariano map originated from the archives of the West Indies.. and neither Noss or Tumlinson came anywhere near having access to this archives, and neither would they have been allowed to, if I'm not wrong.

So this pretty much rules out a forgery or a conspiracy between all four sources.

Now, here's an interesting thought- since Sonora marks the beginning of the path on all those maps, could it be that whoever scratched that "Sonora, MEX" on the H/P stone, was suggesting that something "starts" at the location that it represents? Maybe the beginning of a path?

 

[deducer]

That there is a hole.....and curved cut on the body of the Horse of Santafe certainly suggests the same should be present on the physical entity. The word above the hole, although made indistinct....possibly by erosion or wear over time.....is generally thought to be "PEDRO", and a reference to Pedro Peralta. But with a closer look, the "O" may actually be "A" . Given the carver's other spelling mistakes, wrong or even missing letters, I suspect the intended word was PIEDRA (rock/stone), not Pedro.

All three of these things, cut,stone and hole appear on the Sleeping Lady Treasure map.....as well as on site.

Only the single "A", which is why I always considered the upward slanting element of that one as a pointer to the hole.....since it couldn't have been done by accident, and that a straightedge was probably used.

Regarding the "slanted" A's, both A's are slanted as seen here:



Only on the side of the stone are the A's not slanted:



And I am wondering if the creator(s) did not deliberately group the words SANTAFE to avoid reference to Santa Fe, the town or city?

And regarding the PEDRO, maybe we could get Mike to post a high-res version of this photo he took. It may reveal more details:

 

[somehiker]

Regarding the "slanted" A's, both A's are slanted as seen here:

View attachment 1742154

Only on the side of the stone are the A's not slanted:

View attachment 1742156

And I am wondering if the creator(s) did not deliberately group the words SANTAFE to avoid reference to Santa Fe, the town or city?

And regarding the PEDRO, maybe we could get Mike to post a high-res version of this photo he took. It may reveal more details:

View attachment 1742158

Actually, the "A" in "AL NORTE" also has a slanted cross member.
What, in your own theory makes this significant ?
I've really only considered the 2nd "A" in "SANTAFE" to have been done so deliberately....but ?
The combining of two words to add content and context is common to the Nahua language.
Which could be a clue as to the map maker's heritage as being Mestizo.
I don't believe the town of "Santa Fe" was a factor in why it was carved as one word on the stone.
It's also possible that it had yet to be founded at the time the stone was carved.

 

[wrmickel1]

No one's buying today Mick.
Why don't you try for the banner page ?
Might get you some believers there, and more attention than this thread gets.
Besides, we already have the "show us your gold" thread, which is where you should be posting your gold pics.

Heck, this site might have someone nearby who could pay you a visit and vouch for your gold nuggets.
Might even buy some. Other members have steady customers who buy every flake of gold they find. Pay top dollar too, I've heard. One lives and has a car dealership in my town in fact. Should I have him give you a call?
Wouldn't be hard to set something up.

Somehiker,

Not selling don’t need a small volume buyer as your friend there. But I do know a high Volume buyer from Canada that knows a guy in import export that works for Him. Well Me.

And by the way you and Deducer way over analyzing each other.
Way of track.

babymick1

 

[somehiker]

Wayne any thoughts on Alvarez de Vaca? He was very early on, and went native and lived with the Pma's before returning to Mexico City after making his way from the east. It seems he was on his good behavior when he lived with them. He had to be one of the earliest Spaniards in the area and had a good relationship with the Pimas, maybe they shared info with him? Where is the best place to find info on him? What are your thoughts on him?

I've read the translated version of Alvar Nunez Cabeza de Vaca's adventures a couple of times, and refer to it whenever he or Estevanico
are mentioned in other accounts of early colonization . A copy is available here.....https://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/resources/archives/one/cabeza.htm (easy to copy the entire text to a file for future reference)

Also a video presentation ....

Read the relacion and watch the presentation. I'll tell you what I think later.

 

[somehiker]

Somehiker,

Not selling don’t need a small volume buyer as your friend there. But I do know a high Volume buyer from Canada that knows a guy in import export that works for Him. Well Me.

And by the way you and Deducer way over analyzing each other.
Way of track.

babymick1

You obviously have no idea what we are talking about Mick.
Or why.
That's not surprising though.

I didn't think you would go for any of my suggestions.........laughing

 

[wrmickel1]

You obviously have no idea what we are talking about Mick.
Or why.
That's not surprising though.

I didn't think you would go for any of my suggestions.........laughing

Its obviously, you two definitely know nothing of what Your investigating your all over the cultural place here.
And I do know what your implying, The Myans, Aztec’s Jesuit’s Romans and the Spanish all conspired to hide a Treasure together.

Well you sure got me laughing. Are you sure Deducer an’t blined bowmen!

Take Care Sillyhiker

babymick1

 

[somehiker]

Its obviously, you two definitely know nothing of what Your investigating your all over the cultural place here.
And I do know what your implying, The Myans, Aztec’s Jesuit’s Romans and the Spanish all conspired to hide a Treasure together.

Well you sure got me laughing. Are you sure Deducer an’t blined bowmen!

Take Care Sillyhiker

babymick1

Like I said.....absolutely no idea .
Or comprehension apparently.....even that there are threads where members can post and boast about gold they've found.
Yes, I'm sure. He don't talk like BB at all.
On the other hand......

 

[azdave35]

Like I said.....absolutely no idea .
Or comprehension apparently.....even that there are threads where members can post and boast about gold they've found.
Yes, I'm sure. He don't talk like BB at all.
On the other hand......

mick's hitting the bottle and looking for trouble

 

[wrmickel1]

Like I said.....absolutely no idea .
Or comprehension apparently.....even that there are threads where members can post and boast about gold they've found.
Yes, I'm sure. He don't talk like BB at all.
On the other hand......

Your right no one has any Idea what you’s two are talking about. Some kind of fudge Tank, I would imagine. But I did notice you finally gave credit for something I found. Not boasting though, I mean it is a Treasure Site and I’d like to see others do the same. Call me Crazy But I like that stuff. I do get your Theory, but I don’t see any evidence in it. No Stories of Gold found in dig sites through the valley in native America dwellings. There should be a lot of stories if gold was part of there culture. Gold is still found in South American dwellings thousands of years later.

Probability 5 percent at best, 95 percent no.

babymick1

 

[wrmickel1]

mick's hitting the bottle and looking for trouble

Dave

It wasn’t me getting warned last time it was you. I’m a changed man. I spend my days now in my neutral gender Space.
And think about upside down Heart bellies and unicorns.

babymick1