New site?...with different clue versions?

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The obvious answer is to establish an historical date for a claim, whether for minerals or property. Now explain to me why that number 1847 should NOT be viewed as a date please. Thanks in advance.

:coffee2: :coffee: :coffee2:
Because the whole map is cryptic so what looks like a date cannot be a date
 

Because the whole map is cryptic so what looks like a date cannot be a date

Perhaps it is not nearly so cryptic as it appears? As Sigmund Freud once said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
:occasion14:
 

Perhaps it is not nearly so cryptic as it appears? As Sigmund Freud once said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
:occasion14:
I think the history of these stones proves otherwise, there has yet to be a reasonable solution to them
 

I think the history of these stones proves otherwise, there has yet to be a reasonable solution to them
there have been hundreds of solutions to this puzzle...the trouble is,,,they have all been wrong:dontknow:
 

I will tell ya'll one thing...I'll offer to take Sean Penn to the heart of the PSM's free of charge...Though I will not be able to guarantee his safety...Heck...Some of the people in that area of Mexico might even have a bounty on Sean's head...But who can say for certain???

Ya'll can continue to believe 1847 is a date...I'll continue to believe it represents the metals at the heart of the area at the end of the trail...It truly is one heck of a trail IF I do say so myself...I am in no rush to return to said area...I had thought that it was Zetas I had encountered many years ago...But now that I have done some research on Durango and the cartels...I believe that it may have been another group in the hills way back when...Oh well...

I have only been back a couple days and I am already growing weary of the darned pop ups...I may just stop posting and continue to just read all of ya'lls posts...I find them rather amusing...

Ed T
 

If the Jesuits, Franciscans, Spanish, German, other Europeans made them, they would have used either Varas or Meters (1800's).
Is your target 1847 meters(6059ft) or 1847 Spanish/Mexican varas (5078 ft.) above either sea level, or the surrounding terrain ?

I believe German miners may have used feet? Kino was from Austria, but a German provenance within. I understand the significance of 1847 (treaty), but I have a problem it being a date unless the maker was Mexican doing it in 1847, but then using an older map for the rest of the information. I am sure most of the mapa info is much older than 1847, so could it have been like a revised edition and when they did it they just added 1847 and put their names on it for various reasons. The problem with discounting the date is that it is significant to the area, but the other info is much older IMO. I have not looked yet but, I am sure Kino did not use feet on his maps? yes? no? So there are roman numerals numbers on the maps, but the only one to use feet would have been anglo correct? Why did Allan mention German miners using feet, back in that time period? Kino had an Austrian -German upbringing?
 

You know that is it the info on the maps is definitely, by two makers, the original info and the second person who did the updates added his own information which makes it a fustercluck to figure out. The only way I could see it being feet is if someone who did a latter copy of the stones converts down to feet for their own use and then puts it on that way. Does not one of the Peralta maps have El sombrero marked at 2500 feet elevation?
 

I believe German miners may have used feet? Kino was from Austria, but a German provenance within. I understand the significance of 1847 (treaty), but I have a problem it being a date unless the maker was Mexican doing it in 1847, but then using an older map for the rest of the information. I am sure most of the mapa info is much older than 1847, so could it have been like a revised edition and when they did it they just added 1847 and put their names on it for various reasons. The problem with discounting the date is that it is significant to the area, but the other info is much older IMO. I have not looked yet but, I am sure Kino did not use feet on his maps? yes? no? So there are roman numerals numbers on the maps, but the only one to use feet would have been anglo correct? Why did Allan mention German miners using feet, back in that time period? Kino had an Austrian -German upbringing?

Kino used leagues (leguas).

Most maps have a date on them, because as time marches on, things change and new maps must be made.
It's good to know when the map(s) you have in hand were made......or as you say "revised".

Kino 1701 map, revised anno 1702.
 

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You know that is it the info on the maps is definitely, by two makers, the original info and the second person who did the updates added his own information which makes it a fustercluck to figure out. The only way I could see it being feet is if someone who did a latter copy of the stones converts down to feet for their own use and then puts it on that way. Does not one of the Peralta maps have El sombrero marked at 2500 feet elevation?

One copy of the "Perfil Mapa" does......obviously added as a revision by it's owner.
And taken from Bicknell's 1895 article .......“It lies within an imaginary circle whose diameter is not more than five miles and whose center is marked by the Weaver’s Needle, a prominent and fantastic pinnacle of volcanic tufa that rises to a height of 2500 feet among a confusion of lesser peaks and mountainous masses of basaltic rock....."
 

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I think the history of these stones proves otherwise, there has yet to be a reasonable solution to them

What's on the Stone Maps is a bit of puzzle, but not cryptic or coded. Everything on these Stone refers to a specific location out there. That's all there is to it.

Without knowing this specific location, all you basically have is this:

iu.webp

So yes, the Stone Maps are basically one big legend, and the map itself is the actual, physical location.

I've said this many times: The genius of whoever designed these Stone Maps is that without the location, the maps are useless, and without the maps, the location is useless.

And it's not just a matter of matching up symbols on the Stone Maps to symbols that are out there.. not everything is quite what it seems, and not everything aligns. You really have to pay attention or you're going to end up digging through solid rock for a long time. I think this was intentional, in that they differed from how the Spaniards or Mexicans concealed their stuff (e.g., "X" directly marks the spot, which must have irked this intelligent bunch).

That's why it says busca el mapa right on the Stone Maps themselves.
 

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A clue as to what the 1847 stands for exists on the lower TS, where you see 2 = 3 (o) 18 = 7

I.e., you go 18 places to reach "7" or as Wayne says, a place of "completeness."

Many of you remember 7 from Genesis 2:2 “And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done.” But there's more.. what's exactly meant by the word "rest"? Here's an interesting analysis:


First, we should quote the verse correctly. It doesn’t say God “needed” to rest; it simply says that He did rest. Also, it is clear from Scripture that God did not rest because He was tired. Genesis 17:1 calls God the “Almighty God.” Psalm 147:5 says, “Great is our Lord, and mighty in power; His understanding is infinite.” God is all-powerful; He never tires and never needs to rest. As Isaiah 40:28 says, “The everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth, neither faints nor is weary.” God is the sum of perfection; He is never diminished in any way, and that includes being diminished in power.

The Hebrew word translated “rested” in Genesis 2:2 includes other ideas than that of being tired. In fact, one of the main definitions of the Hebrew word shabat is “to cease or stop.” In Genesis 2:2 the understanding is that God “stopped” His work; He “ceased” creating on the seventh day. All that He had created was good, and His work was finished.

The context of Genesis 1–2 strongly affirms the idea of God’s “rest” being a cessation of work, not a reinvigoration after work. The narrative tells us which things God created in each of the first six days. His power is displayed through the creation of light, mountains, seas, the sun, moon and stars, plant and animal life, and, finally, humanity. There are many parallels between the first three days of creation and the second three days. However, the seventh day is a sharp contrast. Instead of more creating, there is shabat. Instead of God “doing” more, He “ceased” from doing.

So basically the "7" symbolizes a "cease," or in other words, "the end" as in, you've reached the end. The exact same meaning as cursum perficio.

So why the addition of a "4" between the 18 and 7? An additional clue is in where that 1847 is located.. in the recess of the heart.

In other words, the "4" can only be found in what that "recess" symbolizes. Think about what you physically have to do in order to see that "1847." You have to take out the heart stone before you can see it, right? That's also a clue as to what you have to do at the location, in order to uncover the "4."

And what does the "4' symbolize? On the 4th day, God completed the material universe. So in other words, after the 4th day, no more physical things were added.

But there's more: he also created the sun and the moon, both of which were made to shine.

The same as the saying on the cursum perficio:

[Q]uorum Eccla fulget ut sole luna

"[That by] which the church is made to shine as the moon does by [the light of] the sun."

You all know what else "shines."
 

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Great idea.....I'd go along with that.:)
Might even toss a couple of bucks in myself......

Well, yeah, sure, but what's to prevent you from continuing to post low-res fuzzy photos? Methinks there's a method lurking there.
 

Or...

The maps start right at the coordinates given...Florence State Prison. It hadn't been built yet when the last edition of the Florence USGS map was printed, so the map-maker had to guess...if that was the case, he got really close.

A reference to one of Adolph Ruth's supposed killers? Travis believed, according to his Challenge for Superstitions Gold manuscript, that Adolph Ruth had a Peralta treasure map that was taken from him when he was killed, and the story was around back then, that one of the guys who supposedly killed Ruth and took the map, did some time at that prison.

Perhaps Travis was trying to encode on the stone maps, that the information originated from the guy who got Adolph Ruth's map? He seemed to spend some time on the Ruth "murder" in his manuscript.

Never saw anything about any Jesuits or Bible codes in his manuscript? Just sayin ;)
 

Or...

The maps start right at the coordinates given...Florence State Prison. It hadn't been built yet when the last edition of the Florence USGS map was printed, so the map-maker had to guess...if that was the case, he got really close.

A reference to one of Adolph Ruth's supposed killers? Travis believed, according to his Challenge for Superstitions Gold manuscript, that Adolph Ruth had a Peralta treasure map that was taken from him when he was killed, and the story was around back then, that one of the guys who supposedly killed Ruth and took the map, did some time at that prison.

Perhaps Travis was trying to encode on the stone maps, that the information originated from the guy who got Adolph Ruth's map? He seemed to spend some time on the Ruth "murder" in his manuscript.

Never saw anything about any Jesuits or Bible codes in his manuscript? Just sayin ;)

Bible codes (numbers, symbols, et al) are a very common application to puzzling information contained on "treasure maps", particularly alleged "Spanish" or "Church" treasures. Since most "treasure maps" are modern revelations (no pun intended), "Bible Codes", IMO, are simply red herrings based on assumed expectations and likely refer to something else if they have any use at all other than creating confusion.
 

a date by itself serves no purpose, it needs to be associated with something, so, why post a date which is easily read by anyone, and then make everything else cryptic?

Cause it does mean Something, A Official Church Document.
In the year of Are lord 1847,

babymick1
 

Well, yeah, sure, but what's to prevent you from continuing to post low-res fuzzy photos? Methinks there's a method lurking there.

Looked to me like he was always on the verge of slipping and sliding down a rock face when he took those pics...action shots...then again, sounds like maybe he just got a bum camera that was returned by someone else before he got it? All I know is that I will definitely pitch in for a new SH camera...if it means I won't have to look at all those fuzzy pics again! Dave get a "collection" coffee can ready for the rendezvous!

Bible codes (numbers, symbols, et al) are a very common application to puzzling information contained on "treasure maps", particularly alleged "Spanish" or "Church" treasures. Since most "treasure maps" are modern revelations (no pun intended), "Bible Codes", IMO, are simply red herrings based on assumed expectations and likely refer to something else if they have any use at all other than creating confusion.

I'm not a treasure hunter, but I'll take your word for it...not to mention that the way that Bible books and passages are numbered, and the cryptic passages contained within, makes sense to me that one could generate just about any Bible code for just about anything they wanted to say.

Not to say Deducer is wrong, I would imagine he's qualified to opine on such matters. Same with SH or anyone else. I'm just looking at it from a different perspective, one that fits my particular background. I don't know if what I think is right or not, just how I see things.

Jeff: Eusebio Chini (Kino) was an Italian, from an Italian family...not Austrian...he was a Trentino, which at the time of his birth was an somewhat independent principality of the Holy Roman Empire. Austria was one of the major powers within the Holy Roman Empire, and frequently took control of Trent...but Kino wasn't Austrian. This was during the 30 Years War, and every good Catholic would have viewed the Habsburgs and Austria as defenders of the faith, when it seemed every European country was ganging up on them, including France, another Catholic country...bad time to be a German...anyway, I've read that Kino went to school in Austria.
 

A clue as to what the 1847 stands for exists on the lower TS, where you see 2 = 3 (o) 18 = 7



Interesting Theory,

Its the beginning of the trail. 2= 3 o 18 = 7 Are your instructions to the Trail to be read as one. What it’s relating to you is if you have found Start. And you don’t follow those instructions you will be on the wrong trail from the get go.

babymick1
 

I believe German miners may have used feet? Kino was from Austria, but a German provenance within. I understand the significance of 1847 (treaty), but I have a problem it being a date unless the maker was Mexican doing it in 1847, but then using an older map for the rest of the information. I am sure most of the mapa info is much older than 1847, so could it have been like a revised edition and when they did it they just added 1847 and put their names on it for various reasons. The problem with discounting the date is that it is significant to the area, but the other info is much older IMO. I have not looked yet but, I am sure Kino did not use feet on his maps? yes? no? So there are roman numerals numbers on the maps, but the only one to use feet would have been anglo correct? Why did Allan mention German miners using feet, back in that time period? Kino had an Austrian -German upbringing?

If indicating an accurate distance on land, surveyors have been using chains and links for the past 400 years. 18 chains, 47 links is 1111 feet, or 339 meters, or 400 varas (in Texas). Name your poison. How about 47 chains, 18 links - 2832 feet. Tricky, tricky.

What if it's an azimuth? You could say it's 184.7°, a little west of south. Or 1847/360=5.1°, a little east of north. Read backwards, it could be 74.81°, a little north of east. How tricky do you want to make it? You can make it point wherever you want to.

Yes, it could very well be a date. Why not? In fact, 1847 could be damned near anything a mapmaker wanted it to be on his proprietary map, including worthless eyewash if the whole thing is some sort of misleading hoax.

Say, while we're at it, what exactly is the so-called "Treasure of Santa Fe"? Santa Fe NM's history under Spanish and Mexican rule gives no indication of wealth of any kind ever existing there - in fact, just the opposite if you read the numerous reports and journal entries by locals, travelers, traders, trappers, et al, ca 1508-1847. Basically, the place was always a threadbare outpost, subsisting on feeble support from Mexico and whatever taxes could be shaken down from locals. What is the provenance of this "T of SF" term, other than being recently attached to the rock maps?
 

Not to say Deducer is wrong, I would imagine he's qualified to opine on such matters. Same with SH or anyone else. I'm just looking at it from a different perspective, one that fits my particular background. I don't know if what I think is right or not, just how I see things.

No offense taken. It was a message meant for only one of their kind. For someone who wouldn't have to reach for a bible to understand what was going on. Probably also hoping that everyone else's eyes just rolls back up into their heads.
 

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