New site?...with different clue versions?

[PotBelly Jim]

How was it you were able to dismiss in the other thread, and without reservation I might add, overwhelming evidence presented by thousands of scientists that climate change is real- and of who backed up their claim with solid evidence, thorough chemical and physical testings, deriving results ranging from ice core drilling to tree rings, to the spiking acidity of the oceans, but take umbrage when I reject the conclusions of four "scientists" who were proven to have not done any homework, never mind any physical or chemical tests, on the Stone Maps, and forming conclusions all in the space of the two hours that they had the Stone Maps with, one of who examined it with what appears to be a loupe, about a foot away from the stone.

Especially when they were quickly proven wrong on several counts, including on iconography which clearly existed long before the 18th century.

And if I'm not wrong, Wayne (somehiker) has found a match for the type of stone that composes the heart stone, in the Superstitions. There is a picture of that somewhere- I'll see if I can locate it.

If I were a reputable, respectable scientist, I would absolutely not be forming a scientific conclusion in the space of two hours without the benefit of chemical and physical tests and thorough research which they obviously had not done.

I am not sure how you are conflating this with "dutch hunters."

Additionally, DAI wasn't around for a long time at the time they examined the Stone Maps. The organization was founded in 1982, and only established the Tucson office in 1995.

Those are all fair criticisms, Deducer. But, you're perception of what I dismiss without reservation is inaccurate. Not your fault, just that I refuse to go any further into it on this forum. And, I don't think DAI was quickly proven wrong on anything. Quite the opposite.

And I don't think 2 hours examination of the stones is out of the question, or out of line, with what they reported. It probably took them less than 2 hours. So why infer that a reputable, respectable scientist MUST come to a different conclusion? Can't they be reputable scientists and have a different conclusion from you, or anyone else? Why not just say you disagree with their findings, and state your evidence, while not attacking their motives or expertise? I don't get it.

The reason I'm conflating this with "dutch hunters" is because this is the Lost Dutchman Forum. And, for better (and probably worse) the Tumlinson stones, the Bilbrey Crosses, the un-pedigreed Latin Heart, and so on, have been entangled with the LDM lore by other people. Not me.

DAI has been around long enough, and has developed their professional reputation quite nicely, to never have needed the publicity of debunking a set of stone maps. That argument, that they needed the publicity, is absurd IMO. It seems you have a different opinion, which is OK and is predictable given a world of 8 billion or so sentient beings

And I do recall that SH has found a match for the stones in the Supes. Or near there.

Take care, Jim

 

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[somehiker]

Jenny Adams presentation.....
Just scroll back to the beginning.

 

[somehiker]

Homer Thiel.....

 

[sdcfia]

Exactly what evidence am I denying?

Well, I was merely generalizing about the plight of true believers, not you in particular. You'd have to answer your own question.

It seems obvious that arcana-exploration has made a good point re the rocks: the only thing important is whether there is anything useful carved on them, regardless of their provenance and the reality-show-type history and hysterical drama surrounding them. Information is what's ultimately important, not Travis and his activities.

Travis and the surviving Tumlinsons? Frankly, who cares anymore? Or the other players? It's a muddy mess. IMO, the key to the whole shebang is Pegleg Tumlinson and his activities a hundred years ago. What information did he have and where did he get it? Too bad his original TH material is unavailable.

 

[somehiker]

Henry Wallace.....

 

[azdave35]

 

[azdave35]

View attachment 1738869View attachment 1738870

i posted these a while back and got no response ..i guess you stoners turned a blind eye toward them...people have been making phony maps since the dawn of time...playing jokes on people that are foolish enough to waste their lives following them....tom admits to planting these....there are hundreds of people that did it and never owned up to it...it was just a prank to tom but the others had different motives....the stone maps at the museum weren't carved out in the field by some Spaniard in a day...these are actually artwork and it probably took the artist weeks or maybe months to complete them...if you don't believe me try engraving something like this yourself and see how long it takes

 

[wrmickel1]

did you talk to janie?

I called her Mom

She called me Brat.

babymick1

 

[arcana-exploration]

Wayne, I did not use the stones to find the site. Only used map info later for verification. And yes another map is more significant, you will like what we have. And not blowing smoke, but you have good instincts. Except you keep bring up TT and RG, they have nothing to do with anything we have found, especially RG. While that TT stuff is interesting it means nothing in the overall picture and 30 years from now nobody will care (certainly RG not). On the other hand, the book on us is still out. Literally. We are having a great time, For us, this is not the beginning or the end of anything. My guys are not preoccupied with this excellent adventure, only me. They want to finish what we started, to get up to every location on the site. They are currently training with two professionals, climbers(who will be with the team on our next trip). Wayne, I have absolutely no reason to be less than honest. It is not about selling a book, the book will be totally honest, no madder how the story ends. But I am not exactly stupid and know what we have. So I guess the question is do you all want to it to be (LDM) real and do you want it to be found. I am sure you all have mixed emotions, and I can understand that. Wayne, you will be surprised in the end, I think? Hopefully ok with most things?

 

[somehiker]

i posted these a while back and got no response ..i guess you stoners turned a blind eye toward them...people have been making phony maps since the dawn of time...playing jokes on people that are foolish enough to waste their lives following them....tom admits to planting these....there are hundreds of people that did it and never owned up to it...it was just a prank to tom but the others had different motives....the stone maps at the museum weren't carved out in the field by some Spaniard in a day...these are actually artwork and it probably took the artist weeks or maybe months to complete them...if you don't believe me try engraving something like this yourself and see how long it takes

Maybe because we had already read about it in 2010, when Tom described that stone and it's circumstances in a "Chronicals" article.

" I will never forget the time I was on the south end of Black Top Mesa with a couple of friends. We were inspecting and photographing the old tunnel dug by Hank and Henry Harnish and others in the early 1960s. I found a rock with a freshly carved map on it. The map was called the "Lost Donkey Mine Map," and shortly after I found the map we heard some rocks and debris tumbling down the slope of from the top of Black Top Mesa. We soon saw "Sunset" and one his friends approaching the entrance of the overhang we were standing under. This was an unusual meeting in the mountains between individuals so interested in the history and legend of the region. "Sunset" admitted he carved the "Donkey Map" and I admitted I found it. I still have the old stone "Donkey Map" "Sunset" carved that day while eating lunch on the side of Black Top Mesa."

Tom Kollenborn Chronicles: June 2010

But I don't think I ever could have gotten Tom to admit to planting stuff like that.
Are you saying you did ?
"....tom admits to planting these...."

 

[azdave35]

Maybe because we had already read about it in 2010, when Tom described that stone and it's circumstances in a "Chronicals" article.

" I will never forget the time I was on the south end of Black Top Mesa with a couple of friends. We were inspecting and photographing the old tunnel dug by Hank and Henry Harnish and others in the early 1960s. I found a rock with a freshly carved map on it. The map was called the "Lost Donkey Mine Map," and shortly after I found the map we heard some rocks and debris tumbling down the slope of from the top of Black Top Mesa. We soon saw "Sunset" and one his friends approaching the entrance of the overhang we were standing under. This was an unusual meeting in the mountains between individuals so interested in the history and legend of the region. "Sunset" admitted he carved the "Donkey Map" and I admitted I found it. I still have the old stone "Donkey Map" "Sunset" carved that day while eating lunch on the side of Black Top Mesa."

Tom Kollenborn Chronicles: June 2010

wayne....i wasn't claiming i am the only one that knew about this...as you can see from the pic i got it from toms facebook page.....i posted it to show that people do make fake stone maps and plant them in the mountains...that's all...people have been carving fake crap up there for a hundred years...alot of the carvings you see up there were put there by other treasure hunters....carrol ingle told me when i first met him that he used to see new carvings in his area all the time after lust for gold came out...he was here back then,,,i would say he is a good source of info....most of us here (including me) have only been hunting the supers for 20-40 years so we wouldn't know about any phony carvings prior to 1980...maybe we can agree on one thing?...the maps at the museum weren't carved in one day by a peon?...those are an intricate piece of artwork and whoever did them spent alot of thought and time doing so...the craftsmanship is way above any other stone map i have ever seen..your thoughts on that?

 

[Al D]

Wayne, I did not use the stones to find the site. Only used map info later for verification. And yes another map is more significant, you will like what we have. And not blowing smoke, but you have good instincts. Except you keep bring up TT and RG, they have nothing to do with anything we have found, especially RG. While that TT stuff is interesting it means nothing in the overall picture and 30 years from now nobody will care (certainly RG not). On the other hand, the book on us is still out. Literally. We are having a great time, For us, this is not the beginning or the end of anything. My guys are not preoccupied with this excellent adventure, only me. They want to finish what we started, to get up to every location on the site. They are currently training with two professionals, climbers(who will be with the team on our next trip). Wayne, I have absolutely no reason to be less than honest. It is not about selling a book, the book will be totally honest, no madder how the story ends. But I am not exactly stupid and know what we have. So I guess the question is do you all want to it to be (LDM) real and do you want it to be found. I am sure you all have mixed emotions, and I can understand that. Wayne, you will be surprised in the end, I think? Hopefully ok with most things?

Very funny

 

[Oroblanco]

wrmickel1 wrote

No red flags flying yet. No one is blaming you Oro. They may even buy your book. Now who’s looking for Fame.

its as easy as that.

babymick1 I supposed after you become number one on the best seller chart. There will be know putting up with you.
TALK TO THE HAND NOT THE FACE. Ieee

Nah Mick I live in the real world, I will be lucky if I don't have to PAY to get the thing published at all. Might even use a fake name to protect family from the whackadoos, and there are a bunch of them in the LBH forums making death threats etc. Much worse than here on T-net. Don't make assumptions about others motivations, it is usually wrong. And I respectfully disagree, the red flags are very definitely flying - or do you just ignore the fact that Travis T was handy at carving stones? A coincidence maybe?

Potbelly Jim wrote

I think the Captain goes down, while calmly lighting his pipe

Everyone else can scramble for the lifeboats.

Hold it right there amigo! If that means me, I need a chance to find my frigging pipe and get the thing lit!

arcana-exploration wrote

So I guess the question is do you all want to it to be (LDM) real and do you want it to be found. I am sure you all have mixed emotions, and I can understand that. Wayne, you will be surprised in the end, I think? Hopefully ok with most things?

I understand this is mainly directed to Wayne and NOT to speak for him, but as to the first part of your question, yes absolutely I want the LDM to be found. But I want it to be supported by some kind of scientific proof, and yes gold too. After all it was supposedly the 'richest gold mine in the world' it would be hard to believe a mine like that could have been totally cleaned out leaving no trace of gold behind. Too many people have been claiming they "found it" and it was "all cleaned out" with no TRACE of gold to show for it, or nearly as bad, found gold but it is not a good match for the specimens from Waltz. If we don't demand some kind of very solid proof (like photos of the gold vein in the mine for instance, a sample that can be compared etc) then we have to start passing out the congratulations to over 200 different people for finding the LDM in over 200 different places. Sorry but I am not ready to do that just yet.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[deducer]

IMO, the key to the whole shebang is Pegleg Tumlinson and his activities a hundred years ago. What information did he have and where did he get it? Too bad his original TH material is unavailable.

I agree with this. I think he plays a much bigger role, and may in fact have had the H/P stone in his possession, from day one.

 

[somehiker]

wayne....i wasn't claiming i am the only one that knew about this...as you can see from the pic i got it from toms facebook page.....i posted it to show that people do make fake stone maps and plant them in the mountains...that's all...people have been carving fake crap up there for a hundred years...alot of the carvings you see up there were put there by other treasure hunters....carrol ingle told me when i first met him that he used to see new carvings in his area all the time after lust for gold came out...he was here back then,,,i would say he is a good source of info....most of us here (including me) have only been hunting the supers for 20-40 years so we wouldn't know about any phony carvings prior to 1980...maybe we can agree on one thing?...the maps at the museum weren't carved in one day by a peon?...those are an intricate piece of artwork and whoever did them spent alot of thought and time doing so...the craftsmanship is way above any other stone map i have ever seen..your thoughts on that?

Didn't say that you had. But you asked why no one had commented when you posted Tom's post and picture.
Lots of us have been following Tom's Chronicles and Facebook posts for years.
I too have come across a lot of "signs", rock arrows and circles, pecked and scratched symbols etc. which, in most cases I don't even bother to follow or photograph, because I can tell they are more recent than what I am looking for . As for cactus carvings, I don't have any faith in them at all when looking for anything more than 75-100 years old, but I've already given my reasons for that conclusion in a topic about that subject.
Been hiking those mountains since 1995 myself....so 24 years this coming fall I figure....but I've only been interested in the stone maps since the spring of 2010, and that only due to a chance meeting and discussion with a Mexican born and raised Engineer who was working for my employer at the time.
The stones are unique, both in craftsmanship and for what they represent IMO. The H/P stone in particular, but the LH as well, especially in it's use of Latin on one side and old Roman numerics on the other. That two different colors of mudstones (of which shale and slate are both typed) were chosen for each of the hearts is very interesting as well .

 

[azdave35]

Didn't say that you had. But you asked why no one had commented when you posted Tom's post and picture.
Lots of us have been following Tom's Chronicles and Facebook posts for years.
I too have come across a lot of "signs", rock arrows and circles, pecked and scratched symbols etc. which, in most cases I don't even bother to follow or photograph, because I can tell they are more recent than what I am looking for . As for cactus carvings, I don't have any faith in them at all when looking for anything more than 75-100 years old, but I've already given my reasons for that conclusion in a topic about that subject.
Been hiking those mountains since 1995 myself....so 24 years this coming fall I figure....but I've only been interested in the stone maps since the spring of 2010, and that only due to a chance meeting and discussion with a Mexican born and raised Engineer who was working for my employer at the time.
The stones are unique, both in craftsmanship and for what they represent IMO. The H/P stone in particular, but the LH as well, especially in it's use of Latin on one side and old Roman numerics on the other. That two different colors of mudstones (of which shale and slate are both typed) were chosen for each of the hearts is very interesting as well .

nice job of sidestepping but still no answer to my question.....do you think a spaniard or mexican peon carved that out in the field?...all the stone maps i have ever seen were crudely carved....even the one my neighbor has that came from the florence junction area...looks like a kid carved it....the museum maps took a pretty talented engraver and it took more than a day or two...who else besides a texas hillbilly with more time than money would have went to such lengths to do this?

 

[somehiker]

nice job of sidestepping but still no answer to my question.....do you think a spaniard or mexican peon carved that out in the field?...all the stone maps i have ever seen were crudely carved....even the one my neighbor has that came from the florence junction area...looks like a kid carved it....the museum maps took a pretty talented engraver and it took more than a day or two...who else besides a texas hillbilly with more time than money would have went to such lengths to do this?

Relatives described seeing Travis carving his stones out in the front yard of his mother's house. So close enough to a field I guess.

If you believe a workshop setting was more likely, Jesuit missions usually had one or more of those on the grounds....and probably enough tools and skilled labor to do the job .....especially one of the missions primarily made of stone.
The craftsman himself ?
Considering the Religious theme inherent in all of the related artifacts, I'm gravitating towards his/they being a Jesuit Scholastic or Lay Brother at the time. He/they would also have or be able to find the time to accomplish such a task, and certainly did create some fine art back then.

 

[azdave35]

Relatives described seeing Travis carving his stones out in the front yard of his mother's house. So close enough to a field I guess.

If you believe a workshop setting was more likely, Jesuit missions usually had one or more of those on the grounds....and probably enough tools and skilled labor to do the job .....especially one of the missions primarily made of stone.
The craftsman himself ?
Considering the Religious theme inherent in all of the related artifacts, I'm gravitating towards his/they being a Jesuit Scholastic or Lay Brother at the time. He/they would also have or be able to find the time to accomplish such a task, and certainly did create some fine art back then.

what would be the purpose of the jesuits carving them?...a parchment or skin is better...easier and lighter...why would they carve such a cryptic and elaborate map that nobody could decipher except the maker of the map?...the jesuits deny carving the stones...none of these cryptic maps have ever been deciphered ..peralta stones...beale codes...if these were legit don't you think they would have been decoded by now?

 

[somehiker]

I agree with this. I think he plays a much bigger role, and may in fact have had the H/P stone in his possession, from day one.

That there has never been a Tumlinson/Leasman photo of the H/P stone shared, along with some questions I asked of those who I had telephone and e-mail exchanges with, I now suspect that it was Clarence Mitchell who either found the H/P stone, or purchased it from someone else who did. It was admitted that Travis and Clarence were partners in the search early on, and I think it may have been that stone which somehow caused the two to meet . That when Travis later found the other stones and refused to share or even show them to Mitchell, that partnership ended with Clarence basically left in limbo until he was able to buy the Trail Stones and Heart from Alleen .
I can flesh this out a little more if anyone is interested.

 

[azdave35]

That there has never been a Tumlinson/Leasman photo of the H/P stone shared, along with some questions I asked of those who I had telephone and e-mail exchanges with, I now suspect that it was Clarence Mitchell who either found the H/P stone, or purchased it from someone else who did. It was admitted that Travis and Clarence were partners in the search early on, and I think it may have been that stone which somehow caused the two to meet . That when Travis later found the other stones and refused to share or even show them to Mitchell, that partnership ended with Clarence basically left in limbo until he was able to buy the Trail Stones and Heart from Alleen .
I can flesh this out a little more if anyone is interested.

carry on