New site?...with different clue versions?

[azdave35]

Howdy Roy,

You of all people should know that a degree of any kind is not a guarantee to be infallible. Aren't you always claiming historians wrong on who discovered America? Aren't you currently rewriting the story on Custer? Many so called experts are always being proven wrong in all fields. Some day you will learn that the PSM's were actually buried in 1718.

Homar

you still think that the stones in the museum were buried in 1718?

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

How to Research for Treasure Hunting and Metal Detecting From Lead Generation to Vetting - Grab it through Amazon!

[deducer]

actually the stones are over a million years old..technically

Oh no you don't, Dave... Note that I said "Stone Maps" not "stones."

 

[Matthew Roberts]

From Carol Mitchell and her father's papers, CLARENCE Mitchell had the maps analized just weeks after he got them from Tumlinson circa 1961 1962. He held the maps and searched the Superstitions for about 3 years before the Life magazine story and 4 years before his book. His daughter Carol accompanied him on a lot of those searches.

Think about that. If Mitchell was a con man and only wanted to use the stone maps for fraud he wouldn't have held them secretly for 3-4 years before he made them public. Obviously what he learned from Tumlinson and the University analysis convinced him the maps were authentic.

 

[azdave35]

Oh no you don't, Dave... Note that I said "Stone Maps" not "stones."

 

[azdave35]

From Carol Mitchell and her father's papers, CLARENCE Mitchell had the maps analized just weeks after he got them from Tumlinson circa 1961 1962. He held the maps and searched the Superstitions for about 3 years before the Life magazine story and 4 years before his book. His daughter Carol accompanied him on a lot of those searches.

Think about that. If Mitchell was a con man and only wanted to use the stone maps for fraud he wouldn't have held them secretly for 3-4 years before he made them public. Obviously what he learned from Tumlinson and the University analysis convinced him the maps were authentic.

what did he learn from tumlinson?

 

[Oroblanco]

Exactly what tests were actually available to do testing of stone carvings, in the early 1960s?

Exactly what does the Peralta Stone Maps have to do with the lost gold mine of Jacob Waltz?

Related question, what did Waltz say about these Stone Maps?

Thanks in advance,

 

[azdave35]

Exactly what tests were actually available to do testing of stone carvings, in the early 1960s?

Exactly what does the Peralta Stone Maps have to do with the lost gold mine of Jacob Waltz?

Related question, what did Waltz say about these Stone Maps?

Thanks in advance,

"Exactly what tests were actually available to do testing of stone carvings, in the early 1960s?".....eyeballs

"Exactly what does the Peralta Stone Maps have to do with the lost gold mine of Jacob Waltz? "..nothing whatsoever
"Related question, what did Waltz say about these Stone Maps? "....nothing...lol

 

[gollum]

From Carol Mitchell and her father's papers, CLARENCE Mitchell had the maps analized just weeks after he got them from Tumlinson circa 1961 1962. He held the maps and searched the Superstitions for about 3 years before the Life magazine story and 4 years before his book. His daughter Carol accompanied him on a lot of those searches.

Think about that. If Mitchell was a con man and only wanted to use the stone maps for fraud he wouldn't have held them secretly for 3-4 years before he made them public. Obviously what he learned from Tumlinson and the University analysis convinced him the maps were authentic.

THAT is one of the reasons I said the Stone Maps are a quandary! If Travis made them as a hoax, why did he lie to his Uncle Robert (and even drew him a map showing where he found them)? After he got them back from his uncle, why didn't he tell his poor soon to be widow that they weren't authentic? He went to his death bed knowing his wife believed a lie (or she was a liar too)? Mitchell didn't bring the stone maps into MOEL until they started running out of money. MOEL was originally founded based on a "DEVICE" Mitchell had bought that could detect oil, water, gold, silver, and who knows what else. Heck, people still spend good money on Long Range Locators (LRLs). Kellyco even sells them! That is why I won't buy anything from Kellyco.

Mike

 

[gollum]

Exactly what tests were actually available to do testing of stone carvings, in the early 1960s?

Exactly what does the Peralta Stone Maps have to do with the lost gold mine of Jacob Waltz?

Related question, what did Waltz say about these Stone Maps?

Thanks in advance,

Roy, the ONLY tests they could have done on them are exactly what I did:

Use a microscope to check the grooves for traces of metal and roots.

You can't say that the grooves were made by a modern drill or dremel, because an old hand drill could leave the same marks (drill dimple). Where DAI said the drill bit jumped out of the groove and made some almost parallel lines, the exact same can be said from making the engravings by dragging a knife blade over and over to make the grooves. Where the surfaces are too smooth and declared as machine sanded, the ancient Egyptians used very fine sand as a polish and polished granite to a mirror like shine.

The DAI Report only shows you what you want to see. Remember, I spoke with two of the people at DAI that "examined" the Stone Maps. You DO KNOW that the entire time the entire team spent with the Stone Maps was about two hours!?! HeII, I spent more time than that with them in 2010 when Phil and Greg let me handle them and microscopically examine them. I found no traces of any metal or roots (like I figured). What I did want that I wasn't allowed to do was to take a sample of the glue that held the Heart Insert together. I would have loved to have seen how old that was!

Mike

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Well, it would seem that three scientists provided input, according to the Jan 2005 AZ Highways article. The relevant findings are copied from the article, below, emphasis mine:

Research archaeologist Dr. Jenny Adams of Desert Archaeology Inc., a Tucson-based consulting service, finds the discovery part of the story hard to believe. “There is no evidence these stones were ever buried. The stone material is very soft, and there would be a lot of random abrasions. If they sat out in the open, there would be lichen, weathering of the symbols and discoloration of the stone material. Just look at old headstones in any cemetery.”

The question of how the Peralta Stones were made also debunks the idea that the rocks were carved before the 20th century. “The pair of dark stones were mechanically sanded and then drilled,” Adams says. “In many places, there is a ‘start dimple’ where the drill first touched the stone.”

The use of an electric drill to create the drawings and symbols, as well as the shape of the stones, most likely dates their carving to sometime after 1940. Hauling around 75 pounds of “map” could not have been very practical. So one might expect that rock maps leading to treasure in the Superstitions might be made from sandstone common to the mountains. However, Dr. Elizabeth Miksa, also a research geologist with Desert Archaeology, explains that the PeraltaStones originated far from where they were supposedly found.
“The big stone with the horse on it appears to be Coconino Sandstone,” she explains. “The other two sandstones are very soft, very fine, iron-rich . . . sandstones. [These] are most likely found on the Mogollon Rim or in northern Arizona.”

And what about the words? Poorly spelled Spanish phrases have been translated to mean the following:

“This trail is dangerous.
I go 18 places.” And,
“Search the map. Search the heart.” The heart, about the size of a 6-inch salad plate, is a removable, engraved stone that fits snuggly into a recessed carving in one of the rocks.

Two other phrases translated as “The horse of Santa Fe” and “I graze to the north of the river” are similarly baffling.
Some say the blocky, poor writing is another clue that the Peralta Stones are probably phony. Words are written in all capital letters, and even common words like caballo (horse) are misspelled as cobollo.
Historical archaeologist Homer Thiel of Desert Archaeology finds this diagnosis easy. “The lettering is completely wrong for the Spanish language documents of the [supposed] time period.”

Two archaeologists and a geologist. Deducer, this almost sounds like settled science…a “consensus” of the scientific community? sorry, couldn't resist amigo.

 

[deducer]

[FONT=&] Well, it would seem that three scientists provided input, according to the Jan 2005 AZ Highways article. The relevant findings are copied from the article, below, emphasis mine:[/FONT]

Research archaeologist Dr. Jenny Adams of Desert Archaeology Inc., a Tucson-based consulting service, finds the discovery part of the story hard to believe. “There is no evidence these stones were ever buried. The stone material is very soft, and there would be a lot of random abrasions. If they sat out in the open, there would be lichen, weathering of the symbols and discoloration of the stone material. Just look at old headstones in any cemetery.”

The question of how the Peralta Stones were made also debunks the idea that the rocks were carved before the 20th century. “The pair of dark stones were mechanically sanded and then drilled,” Adams says. “In many places, there is a ‘start dimple’ where the drill first touched the stone.”

The use of an electric drill to create the drawings and symbols, as well as the shape of the stones, most likely dates their carving to sometime after 1940. Hauling around 75 pounds of “map” could not have been very practical. So one might expect that rock maps leading to treasure in the Superstitions might be made from sandstone common to the mountains. However, Dr. Elizabeth Miksa, also a research geologist with Desert Archaeology, explains that the PeraltaStones originated far from where they were supposedly found.
“The big stone with the horse on it appears to be Coconino Sandstone,” she explains. “The other two sandstones are very soft, very fine, iron-rich . . . sandstones. [These] are most likely found on the Mogollon Rim or in northern Arizona.”

And what about the words? Poorly spelled Spanish phrases have been translated to mean the following:

“This trail is dangerous.
I go 18 places.” And,
“Search the map. Search the heart.” The heart, about the size of a 6-inch salad plate, is a removable, engraved stone that fits snuggly into a recessed carving in one of the rocks.

Two other phrases translated as “The horse of Santa Fe” and “I graze to the north of the river” are similarly baffling.
Some say the blocky, poor writing is another clue that the Peralta Stones are probably phony. Words are written in all capital letters, and even common words like caballo (horse) are misspelled as cobollo.
Historical archaeologist Homer Thiel of Desert Archaeology finds this diagnosis easy. “The lettering is completely wrong for the Spanish language documents of the [supposed] time period.”

Two archaeologists and a geologist. Deducer, this almost sounds like settled science…a “consensus” of the scientific community? sorry, couldn't resist amigo.

Very funny, Jim. And of course- their "consensus" is not surprising, considering that they were all employed by the same organization, and are paid to, to paraphrase the mission statement on their website, help their clients navigate archaeological and historical compliance requirements.

They wouldn't be making much money if they told most of their clients that, no, they can't build here or there- or this or that falls under the antiquities act, would they? I suspect that they kind of sensed that the Flagg organization wanted to unload the stones without worrying about the antiquities act... and were all too happy to oblige, all in the space of two hours.

 

[azdave35]

Very funny, Jim. And of course- their "consensus" is not surprising, considering that they were all employed by the same organization, and are paid to, to paraphrase the mission statement on their website, help their clients navigate archaeological and historical compliance requirements.

They wouldn't be making much money if they told most of their clients that, no, they can't build here or there- or this or that falls under the antiquities act, would they? I suspect that they kind of sensed that the Flagg organization wanted to unload the stones without worrying about the antiquities act... and were all too happy to oblige, all in the space of two hours.

my guess is that the flagg org. wanted to unload the stone maps because they knew they were worthless...does anyone here actually know who a.l. flagg was or what his organization is about?...they aren't idiots...if they thought those stones were the real deal they would have never gave them away

 

[PotBelly Jim]

my guess is that the flagg org. wanted to unload the stone maps because they knew they were worthless...does anyone here actually know who a.l. flagg was or what his organization is about?...they aren't idiots...if they thought those stones were the real deal they would have never gave them away

Exactly, Dave. It seems some here think the Flagg Foundation supposedly paid a bunch of hack scientists just so they could get rid of the stones!!!...apparently, the people at the Flagg Foundation are so dense that they didn't realize all they had to do was throw em in a dumpster and save the consulting fees

We could believe that, or perhaps, that the entire premise of the "bought and paid for" Desert Archaeology analysis is faulty?

It is possible, after all, that the Desert Archaeology crew actually tried to make an accurate analysis of the stones.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Dave,

The Flagg Foundation wanted rid of the maps first and foremost because they came to them under devious circumstances and Flagg had no clear title of ownership of the maps. To compound matters an outside individual was attempting to lay claim to them and Flagg feared a lawsuit. And lastly, the maps were completely outside the identity of the foundation which is prestigious gem and mineral collections.

 

[wrmickel1]

my guess is that the flagg org. wanted to unload the stone maps because they knew they were worthless...does anyone here actually know who a.l. flagg was or what his organization is about?...they aren't idiots...if they thought those stones were the real deal they would have never gave them away

Well I don’t think there idiots, It’s like gay people or RG for instance, You don’t understand them because you think differently you kindda dismiss the whole thing. So the whole map thing became Nonsense.

Babymick1

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Dave,

The Flagg Foundation wanted rid of the maps first and foremost because they came to them under devious circumstances and Flagg had no clear title of ownership of the maps. To compound matters an outside individual was attempting to lay claim to them and Flagg feared a lawsuit. And lastly, the maps were completely outside the identity of the foundation which is prestigious gem and mineral collections.

So if the Flagg Foundation wanted rid of the maps, and there was, conveniently, an individual who wanted them, why didn't the Flagg Foundation just give them to the guy instead of going down the devious path of paying to have the stones declared a fraud, so THEN they could get rid of them?

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Well I don’t think there idiots, It’s like gay people or RG for instance, You don’t understand them because you think differently you kindda dismiss the whole thing. So the whole map thing became Nonsense.

Babymick1

Mick, that's just AWESOME. Good work. (EDIT: I'm being sarcastic.) You should delete that post.

 

[azdave35]

Dave,

The Flagg Foundation wanted rid of the maps first and foremost because they came to them under devious circumstances and Flagg had no clear title of ownership of the maps. To compound matters an outside individual was attempting to lay claim to them and Flagg feared a lawsuit. And lastly, the maps were completely outside the identity of the foundation which is prestigious gem and mineral collections.

matthew...the a.l. flagg org. is a very prestigious organization around here and they have alot of pull with the universities such as asu or u.of a...i am in the rock and gem business myself and i know a few of the members...as far as i gathered from them they had no fear of a lawsuit....believe me Matthew they could had any testing done they wanted on the cuff..no charge...and they did...if they thought those sandstone doorstops had any value (monetary or historical) ..they would have fought to keep them

 

[somehiker]

Exactly, Dave. It seems some here think the Flagg Foundation supposedly paid a bunch of hack scientists just so they could get rid of the stones!!!...apparently, the people at the Flagg Foundation are so dense that they didn't realize all they had to do was throw em in a dumpster and save the consulting fees

We could believe that, or perhaps, that the entire premise of the "bought and paid for" Desert Archaeology analysis is faulty?

It is possible, after all, that the Desert Archaeology crew actually tried to make an accurate analysis of the stones.

Do any of them know what "pro bono" means ?
Or that the examination was requested by Arizona Highways, not FLAGG or the AMMM .

I have posted this before - I wrote to the Desert Archaeology, Inc, that actually tested the stones. I talked to Jenny Adams and a couple others. Here is one of my responses from them.

----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Jenny Adams <jenny@desert.com>
To: oroblanco@yahoo.com
Sent: Tue, July 20, 2010 1:01:36 PM
Subject: Peralta stones

[FONT="][FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black]Dear Beth:[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black] [/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black]Your email was passed along to me to answer. It was a few years ago that we had the stones you ask about here at Desert. The following puts our contact with the stones in perspective.[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black] [/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black]In June 2004, Henry Wallace of Desert Archaeology, Inc. (DAI) was contacted by Anne Montgomery, a writer for Arizona Highways with a request for a pro bono evaluation of the stone maps also known as the Peralta Stones. Anne arranged for the stones to be delivered in July to DAI by Ray Grant from the Mining Museum in Phoenix and asked that DAI analysts evaluate them and advise her about when and how the stone maps were made. Elizabeth Miska, Ph.D, Homer Thiel, M.A., and Jenny Adams, Ph.D. considered their geological background, their historic situation, their manufacture techniques, and evidence of post-manufacture deposition.[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black] [/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black]In summary, their conclusions were that the rocks themselves are not from the Superstition Mountains. The horse, heart, and witch depictions on the stones are not stylistically similar to the iconography of the 1800s, but are common in the 1900s. Similarly, the Spanish lettering and words on the stones are wrong for the mid-1800s and engravings and finishing of the stones were made by power tools. Furthermore, the stones are neither weathered from exposure nor damaged by burial as has been suggested by stories of their rediscovery. Based on these observations, the stone maps are not considered authentic as described in various stories of their origin in the mid-1800s and rediscovery in the mid-1900s. These observations were provided to Anne Montgomery who wrote an article for the January 2005 issue of Arizona Highways. None of the DAI analysts can add anything more to their conclusions at this time.[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black] [/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black]I hope it answers your questions and good luck with your research.[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black] [/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black]Sincerely – Jenny[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black] [/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black]Jenny L. Adams, Ph.D.[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black]Research Archaeologist[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black]Desert Archaeology, Inc.[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black]3975 North Tucson Blvd.[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black]Tucson, Arizona 85716[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black]520-881-2244[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black]520-881-0325 fax[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black]jadams@desert.com[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black][URL="http://www.desert.com/"]www.desert.com[/URL][/FONT]
[/FONT][/COLOR]

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Do any of them know what "pro bono" means ?
Or that the examination was requested by Arizona Highways, not FLAGG or the AMMM .

HA! Apparently not...I missed the Pro Bono part...thank you for the correction!

So the hack scientists lied about the stones for free. This just gets better and better.

While the Desert Archaeology crew says AZ Hwys Mag requested the analysis, Matthew and everyone else have been saying that the Flagg Foundation were clients of Desert Archaeology. Which was it?