New site?...with different clue versions?

[wrmickel1]

" Woodcut from an 18th-century chapbook about the prophetess and supposed witch Mother Shipton, featured in Chap-books of the Eighteenth Century (1834) by John Ashton "

From......https://publicdomainreview.org/2017/05/04/woodcuts-and-witches/

Don’t forget Gargoils They keep the creepy things in the night away too!

babymick1

 

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[somehiker]

Because it was a investment, High Risk, They had no recourse to collect there losses.
Your assuming it was fraud, But no intent to fraud investors, it was all about proper paper work done. That’s all
babymick1

Try and keep up Mick.
There's nothing in that post about fraud.
In fact Mitchell promoted MOEL as a company whose purpose was to look for oil and mineral deposits.....not "treasure".
There is no evidence that he ever used the stones to promote the sale of stock in MOEL. In fact, it seems that it was the article in Life Magazine which angered a few investors, who likely thought Mitchell had been holding out on them. Although not an investor, I suspect it was Peck who fomented the ensuing rebellion over the stones, Mitchell's book, and thus an apparent lack of effort on Mitchell's part to fulfill the originally stated goals of MOEL.

 

[wrmickel1]

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/t...ring-1675-1715-early-17th-century-buckle.html

https://www.google.com/search?q=jes...KHa39AtMQsAR6BAgJEAE&biw=1095&bih=632#imgrc=_

Somehiker

I was wondering when someone would post the Heart Ring, In the case of the Stone Maps or the mining operations in the Supers 1647 to 1847 they mined there for 200 years before being forced out. The gold bars from the Atocha prove it. That’s why the Fishers were interested in AZ. But by the time they got there it just turned into a Wilderness Area, No chance of buying the land up.

So I guess you all know now is all those mines behind the main mountain that were there and knowbody no’s who’s they were are right there on that Ring. The Heart.

babymick1

 

[somehiker]

Somehiker

I was wondering when someone would post the Heart Ring, In the case of the Stone Maps or the mining operations in the Supers 1647 to 1847 they mined there for 200 years before being forced out. The gold bars from the Atocha prove it. That’s why the Fishers were interested in AZ. But by the time they got there it just turned into a Wilderness Area, No chance of buying the land up.

So I guess you all know now is all those mines behind the main mountain that were there and knowbody no’s who’s they were are right there on that Ring. The Heart.

babymick1

Been posting pictures of those Jesuit Trade rings for years Mick.
The Atocha bars had nothing to do with the Jesuits. Some of the jewelry and coinage maybe....
The Fishers were interested in Arizona because of something discovered by Eugene Lyon, who works for them as a researcher .
Again though, nothing to do with any Jesuit,or Franciscan treasure.....or a gold mine.

 

[somehiker]

BTW:

The Apache Trail has been re-opened, except for a 7 mi stretch to the west of Apache Lake Marina.

 

[wrmickel1]

Been posting pictures of those Jesuit Trade rings for years Mick.
The Atocha bars had nothing to do with the Jesuits. Some of the jewelry and coinage maybe....
The Fishers were interested in Arizona because of something discovered by Eugene Lyon, who works for them as a researcher .
Again though, nothing to do with any Jesuit,or Franciscan treasure.....or a gold mine.

Somehiker

It had everything to do with Treasure. Like I said the Bars prove it. Now there’s nothing on the bars to link it to Az.
It’s in the manifesto place of origin. Have you ever been to the fisher museum it quite beautiful.
It seems every mine in there was found after someone else covered them up first. Goldfield, Pit Mine, Silver Chief ect.
The Atocha sank in 1622 so what happened 1647!
But anyway the fishers were looking for the Vault, Supply chain.

Thats What was past on to me.

Babymick1

 

[Oroblanco]

It amazes me how flippantly so many people are quick and ready to dismiss the results of what Desert Archaeology Inc findings were.

These are well educated people with degrees in their fields of study. They are recognized for their expertise.

Be honest now, if DAI had concluded that the Peralta Stone Maps were genuine Spanish treasure maps, would you be dismissing their findings as only a quick, cursory glance, incompetent etc?

There was no FBI study done of the stone maps. That grew out of a single overheard sentence, which was just an offhand opinion given off the cuff. Talk to Bob Corbin if you still think there was an FBI study done.

Good luck and good hunting to you, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

The Atocha bars had nothing to do with the Jesuits. Some of the jewelry and coinage maybe....
Again though, nothing to do with any Jesuit,or Franciscan treasure.....or a gold mine.

I believe you may be mistaken on that point.

Let me explain:

There are several examples of one thing common to recovered Jesuit Gold and Silver Ingots. The Cross and "V".



You can even see it in an old Jesuit emblem:



Now to the Atocha Bars connection:

The very first Silver Ingot found from the Atocha was named the "Discovery Bar". The greatest majority of the bullion was taken aboard at Portobelo, Panama. This bar was different. It was taken aboard at Cartagena de Indias (Cartagena, Columbia). It was listed in the manifest as payment to the crown as a tax levied against slave trading by a Portuguese Slave Trader named Duarte de Leon Marquez. The experts on Siglas could only guess at the siglas of the previous owners of the ingot. Here is page 59 of "Spanish Treasure Bars from New World Shipwrecks":



Click on the photo a few times to enlarge it. If you look at the sigla on the right side, you will see what is described by the author: An "A" above a cross. Now, look at the rest of the Roman Numerals and letters on the bar (fineness, weight, tally number). They are all upside down. If you turn the bar over (where all the Roman Numerals and letters are readable), now look again at that sigla. It is our old friend the cross above the "V":



Cartagena Columbia was the port closest to the Jesuit Reducciones in Bolivia. It would have been the logical place for them to have bought slaves coming over from Africa. Did I mention that the Jesuits were the largest slaveholders in the New World? Also anybody that knows how religious the Spanish were/are would know without doubt that the Catholic Spaniards would NEVER (I REPEAT NEVER) subjugate a cross UNDER anything. A cross would always be at the top of a sigla. My reading of the ingot (with the Jesuits as the previous owner) is this: Whomever "B" is (the cross and "V" are stamped on top of it) had tithed this bar to the Order. The Order used it (and possibly more still unfound) to purchase slaves in Cartagena. This particular ingot (and possibly others unfound) were marked on the manifest tally to pay taxes on profits from trading slaves, and were also marked with Marquez' Sigla as the new owner, so the crown would know who sent the bar to Spain.

This one bar remains the best evidence that treasure bars that came along much later with the Cross and "V" are likely to be authentic. Many were declared fakes because this marking was found nowhere in known documents or found on any ingots with known provenance. This ingot went to the bottom of the Caribbean/Atlantic (Southeast of the Florida Keys) in 1622, and didn't see the light of day again until 1973.

Mike

 

[wrmickel1]

It amazes me how flippantly so many people are quick and ready to dismiss the results of what Desert Archaeology Inc findings were.

These are well educated people with degrees in their fields of study. They are recognized for their expertise.

Be honest now, if DAI had concluded that the Peralta Stone Maps were genuine Spanish treasure maps, would you be dismissing their findings as only a quick, cursory glance, incompetent etc?

There was no FBI study done of the stone maps. That grew out of a single overheard sentence, which was just an offhand opinion given off the cuff. Talk to Bob Corbin if you still think there was an FBI study done.

Good luck and good hunting to you, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Oro,

Yes well educated I give them that. Now to dismiss them, 100 percent! If you can explain How Developers have built Housing Tracks for Five Million people with Native America ruins in there back yards all over the valley and no one cares.
This Company is in place to make sure theses developers are able to build Period. They find solutions to problems you just claim there not there. There paid to make sure things get built. Otherwise there would be no one living in the Valley.

They were paid to do what there client wants.

babymick1

 

[wrmickel1]

I believe you may be mistaken on that point.

Let me explain:

There are several examples of one thing common to recovered Jesuit Gold and Silver Ingots. The Cross and "V".

View attachment 1738438 View attachment 1738439 View attachment 1738440

You can even see it in an old Jesuit emblem:

View attachment 1738441

Now to the Atocha Bars connection:

The very first Silver Ingot found from the Atocha was named the "Discovery Bar". The greatest majority of the bullion was taken aboard at Portobelo, Panama. This bar was different. It was taken aboard at Cartagena de Indias (Cartagena, Columbia). It was listed in the manifest as payment to the crown as a tax levied against slave trading by a Portuguese Slave Trader named Duarte de Leon Marquez. The experts on Siglas could only guess at the siglas of the previous owners of the ingot. Here is page 59 of "Spanish Treasure Bars from New World Shipwrecks":

View attachment 1738442

Click on the photo a few times to enlarge it. If you look at the sigla on the right side, you will see what is described by the author: An "A" above a cross. Now, look at the rest of the Roman Numerals and letters on the bar (fineness, weight, tally number). They are all upside down. If you turn the bar over (where all the Roman Numerals and letters are readable), now look again at that sigla. It is our old friend the cross above the "V":

View attachment 1738443

Cartagena Columbia was the port closest to the Jesuit Reducciones in Bolivia. It would have been the logical place for them to have bought slaves coming over from Africa. Did I mention that the Jesuits were the largest slaveholders in the New World? Also anybody that knows how religious the Spanish were/are would know without doubt that the Catholic Spaniards would NEVER (I REPEAT NEVER) subjugate a cross UNDER anything. A cross would always be at the top of a sigla. My reading of the ingot (with the Jesuits as the previous owner) is this: Whomever "B" is (the cross and "V" are stamped on top of it) had tithed this bar to the Order. The Order used it (and possibly more still unfound) to purchase slaves in Cartagena. This particular ingot (and possibly others unfound) were marked on the manifest tally to pay taxes on profits from trading slaves, and were also marked with Marquez' Sigla as the new owner, so the crown would know who sent the bar to Spain.

This one bar remains the best evidence that treasure bars that came along much later with the Cross and "V" are likely to be authentic. Many were declared fakes because this marking was found nowhere in known documents or found on any ingots with known provenance. This ingot went to the bottom of the Caribbean/Atlantic (Southeast of the Florida Keys) in 1622, and didn't see the light of day again until 1973.

Mike

Excellent Post! Sir!

Babymick1

 

[gollum]

Excellent Post! Sir!

Babymick1

This ingot was sold at auction at Christie's New York on June 14th-15th 1988. That auction catalog is titled "Gold and Silver of the Atocha and Santa Margarita". There is a very good photo of this bar on page 141.

Mike

 

[Al D]

It amazes me how flippantly so many people are quick and ready to dismiss the results of what Desert Archaeology Inc findings were.

These are well educated people with degrees in their fields of study. They are recognized for their expertise.

Be honest now, if DAI had concluded that the Peralta Stone Maps were genuine Spanish treasure maps, would you be dismissing their findings as only a quick, cursory glance, incompetent etc?

There was no FBI study done of the stone maps. That grew out of a single overheard sentence, which was just an offhand opinion given off the cuff. Talk to Bob Corbin if you still think there was an FBI study done.

Good luck and good hunting to you, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Their conclusions are not dismissed lightly, there are some serious flaws in their reported conclusions, for one, the determination that the stones were carved using modern power tools. This statement cannot be supported by the observations, as I posted earlier, there was a foot powered drill available in 1790, a full 57 years earlier than the target date for the stones. Also, there is not an established iconography related to the tablets and the time period, it seems very likely that DAI took the position of C Polzer as an authority, however, it can be proven that he was wrong on at least one point i.e. the style of the cross being 20th century. There is a cross of the exact same style in the museum at Tumacaccori which was excavated and is dated to mid 1600’s, I have found many headstones in cemeteries which have the same style cross with dates from the 1800’s

 

[somehiker]

I believe you may be mistaken on that point.
----------------------------------------- -------------------------------
----------------------------------------- ----------------------------------
This one bar remains the best evidence that treasure bars that came along much later with the Cross and "V" are likely to be authentic. Many were declared fakes because this marking was found nowhere in known documents or found on any ingots with known provenance. This ingot went to the bottom of the Caribbean/Atlantic (Southeast of the Florida Keys) in 1622, and didn't see the light of day again until 1973.

Mike

You should know by now, based on all that I have previously posted on these boards re: Jesuit Treasures, that I am a believer .
But regardless of which and whose sigla appear on that bar, the fact that it was listed on the Atocha manifest as taxes paid on profits by a known slave trader removes the bar from consideration as part of a "Jesuit Treasure" IMO. While the V-Cross symbol may very well be Jesuit, and may have been used to mark ingots once tithed to the Order, or perhaps even gifted to individual priests, my post to Mick was primarily in response to his assertion that the gold bars from the Atocha proves that the Jesuits had mines in the Sups.

 

[somehiker]

It amazes me how flippantly so many people are quick and ready to dismiss the results of what Desert Archaeology Inc findings were.

These are well educated people with degrees in their fields of study. They are recognized for their expertise.

Be honest now, if DAI had concluded that the Peralta Stone Maps were genuine Spanish treasure maps, would you be dismissing their findings as only a quick, cursory glance, incompetent etc?

There was no FBI study done of the stone maps. That grew out of a single overheard sentence, which was just an offhand opinion given off the cuff. Talk to Bob Corbin if you still think there was an FBI study done.

Good luck and good hunting to you, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Not flippantly at all Roy, since some of us have spent considerable time in researching and posting examples of the same iconography that the folks at DA said didn't exist, some of which predates the 1800's by a considerable margin. Quite frankly, I don't believe any of them were willing to give the stones they examined any serious consideration in the first place, given the profession's attitude towards treasure hunting .

Of course many of us would welcome any professional opinion the the stones are genuine, but would also have many of us cross-examining and doing our own research into the reasons for that result as well .

Bob's Apr.29,2005 letter to Greg Davis makes the answer to the FBI question very clear IMO.
In the letter, Bob relates far more than " a single overheard sentence", as you so flippantly declare .
Have you asked him about that letter ?

Here it is again.....http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~gcundiff/genealogy/LostDutchman/peralta/The Bob Corbin Story.pdf

 

[deducer]

Deducer, somehiker, ...... My apology I meant Travis Marlowes 1965 book on the stone maps and Superstition Mountains. Not Travis Tomlinson. In Marlowes book he writes he had the stones tested at a university and received a letter stating the stones were authentic and at least 100 years old.

Marlowe claims that the Stone Maps were examined by a "Professor of Geology at a well-known university" and that he had in his possession a letter which as you say states that the Stone Maps were more than a hundred years old.

But what does that have to do with what Bob Corbin said the FBI allegedly did?

If anything, that two separate sources have come up with similar conclusions, that the Stone Maps are over a hundred years old, would give one pause in considering those Stone Maps an act of fraudulence, wouldn't it?

 

[gollum]

Marlowe claims that the Stone Maps were examined by a "Professor of Geology at a well-known university" and that he had in his possession a letter which as you say states that the Stone Maps were more than a hundred years old.

But what does that have to do with what Bob Corbin said the FBI allegedly did?

If anything, that two separate sources have come up with similar conclusions, that the Stone Maps are over a hundred years old, would give one pause in considering those Stone Maps an act of fraudulence, wouldn't it?

Buddy,

Your going to have to go back and get the names if you are interested, but I spent a lot of time running down all those stories back in about 2006-2007. I don't remember all the names, but I do remember all their circumstances.

1. To get more detailed info on Bob Corbin's Story, I contacted the FBI. I corresponded many times with FBI Historian Agent John Fox. He could find zero records of the Stone Maps having been officially examined at the FBI Laboratories in D.C. or Virginia. He said that if they were looked at, it may have just been as an unofficial favor for a local FBI Office. No records kept. Strike ONE!

2. One of the people Mitchell claimed examined the Stone Maps was a professor at Cal State Long Beach (CSLB). That professor died several years before my inquiry. There was/is a Grant bearing his name at the University, but he died with no immediate family, and nobody there who had worked with him professionally. Strike TWO!

3. Mitchell claimed the main person who examined the Stone Maps for him was Professor Steven Dana who was head of the Geology Dept at Redlands University. I first found an archivist. She couldn't find anything in the University Records, but got me in touch with one of his daughters. She is a geologist working for an Oil Company. She checked and found nothing in University Archives, but said her dad did do a lot of side work for Oil Exploration Companies and the like (MOEL was in part an oil exploration company). She said the subject didn't sound like something the University would want to officially be a part of, so IF it happened, Professor Dana likely looked at them as a side job. She said her mom typed all of her dads papers for all of his side jobs, so she put me in touch with her mom. A very nice lady that sounded like she may have been in the early stage of Alzheimer's. She said that the subject sounded familiar, but she couldn't be certain. I didn't push too hard as she seemed kind of fragile. I believe that she has since passed away. Strike THREE! I was done.

Unless someone can think of another route to go, this part of the Stone Maps History will remain a question. NOTHING PROVABLE! Only the fact that Bob Corbin is a straight up guy that I trust implicitly.

Mike

 

[azdave35]

Marlowe claims that the Stone Maps were examined by a "Professor of Geology at a well-known university" and that he had in his possession a letter which as you say states that the Stone Maps were more than a hundred years old.

But what does that have to do with what Bob Corbin said the FBI allegedly did?

If anything, that two separate sources have come up with similar conclusions, that the Stone Maps are over a hundred years old, would give one pause in considering those Stone Maps an act of fraudulence, wouldn't it?

actually the stones are over a million years old..technically

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Mike,

You are correct. Carol Mitchell,CLARENCE Mitchell's daughter had her father's letters/papers that showed he had the stones examined shortly after he got them from Tumlinson. Dana was one of the men and another whose name I'm not sure but might be Martin Stout. He was with a LA univ can't remember if it was CSLB , CSLA or one of those.

 

[gollum]

Mike,

You are correct. Carol Mitchell,CLARENCE Mitchell's daughter had her father's letters/papers that showed he had the stones examined shortly after he got them from Tumlinson. Dana was one of the men and another whose name I'm not sure but might be Martin Stout. He was with a LA univ can't remember if it was CSLB , CSLA or one of those.

The name I couldn't remember was Stout, and it may have been CSLA.

Trust me Kraig. I spent a lot of time running this subject down. So, I guess there MAY be another way to go. If the Mitchell Family could come up with Dr. Dana's Examination Report, then I could get his daughter to verify his signature, and we would have something positive to go on.

Mike

 

[coazon de oro]

It amazes me how flippantly so many people are quick and ready to dismiss the results of what Desert Archaeology Inc findings were.

These are well educated people with degrees in their fields of study. They are recognized for their expertise.

Be honest now, if DAI had concluded that the Peralta Stone Maps were genuine Spanish treasure maps, would you be dismissing their findings as only a quick, cursory glance, incompetent etc?

There was no FBI study done of the stone maps. That grew out of a single overheard sentence, which was just an offhand opinion given off the cuff. Talk to Bob Corbin if you still think there was an FBI study done.

Good luck and good hunting to you, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Howdy Roy,

You of all people should know that a degree of any kind is not a guarantee to be infallible. Aren't you always claiming historians wrong on who discovered America? Aren't you currently rewriting the story on Custer? Many so called experts are always being proven wrong in all fields. Some day you will learn that the PSM's were actually buried in 1718.

Homar