New site?...with different clue versions?

[azdave35]

No, I believe Ron did pack for him as some kind of partnership, And Crazy went Crazy on him. So they split up for years. Then Crazy got in touch with him years later about something.

or Something like that

babymick1

and just where did you come up with that ?

 

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[somehiker]

What about Clay or Sal......didn't they know him as well ?

 

[azdave35]

What about Clay or Sal......didn't they know him as well ?

i'm not sure..i never asked clay..but if he did know him i don't think he knew him well..he has never spoke of him...and i cant understand anything sal says...lol

 

[somehiker]

Wayne this is what folks where folks should be focusing their research, the original stones. The second stones mean next to nothing, other than a who done it a mystery. I tell who did the second or third stones, an interloper, who cares? Wayne whoever did the first set, the snailish grey ones may be meaningful, I say could be meaningful. Who cares about TT, really! The important things are who was the first to find the Alpha site, and the first stones if authentic, are a window to who was the first European on-site. We have information that is very early, putting anglos on the site, we have two groups, but do not know exactly who from those to groups. My instincts tell me the info is buried somewhere. That being said, we may never know who the first Anglos on site where. (after Mesoamericans). There are a lot of guys here who are good at research, I would like to see them focus on the old world and anything related, to Spanish and Jesuits first, second and third Generational, New Spain. We know the info on the stones (most of the info) is meaningful, but whoever did the interloper stones means very little. Wayne have you done research from archives, I know you have done some, exactly what areas?

New posts on site. Red Hearing and # 24.

While the "museum" stones are at the center of everyone's search for answers to this subject......except for RG and the Tumlinsons of course, who have said that Travis had nothing to do with them....., on their own they generate far more questions than answers. Add to that all of the additional unresolved and controversial questions about the evolution of the story since Dec. 1948 and those involved prior to Mitchell's unveiling of the stone maps in Life Magazine in June of '64, and you should realize how much more you will need to know and experience before you will be able to publish a book which will sell in enough numbers to justify the time and expense.
The family is on record, on video and via E-mail, that what Travis was seen carving were smaller stones, all the same color....light grey/white....and that he was working from small scraps of paper while carving them. No use of a dremel tool or electric drill was mentioned by any member of the family. That description happens to fit the stones which RG was later to claim were the "originals" that Travis found near Black Point. One of those is what RG called the "star map", which he said he used to locate the "cajon" or "box" that he claimed was stolen by "Blake". I wouldn't waste any time on those.
Unless there are artifacts within the site itself, which can be dated and traced back to certain individuals, native peoples, and/or a religious order we will never know who all was there and when or why. I have never been to the archives in Mexico or in Spain, but some of what others have found there has been shared in the past by those who have.

 

[somehiker]

i'm not sure..i never asked clay..but if he did know him i don't think he knew him well..he has never spoke of him...and i cant understand anything sal says...lol

I would guess that Clay knew him, but kept his distance.
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Sal worked for him at one time.
I'd like to spend a little more time talking to both of them myself.

 

[azdave35]

I would guess that Clay knew him, but kept his distance.
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Sal worked for him at one time.
I'd like to spend a little more time talking to both of them myself.

i think jake might have been gone by the time sal showed up?

 

[wrmickel1]

and just where did you come up with that ?

Ron

 

[azdave35]

Ron

i'll ask him about that too when i see him

 

[coazon de oro]

I am asking you a question- why would Travis look for the needle there? I have been there, have you?

And nobody is forcing you to read a thread about auto restoration- you have the ability to ignore it.

You missed the point completely, Travis told his story to different people, who may have told it different. This is why it seems full of holes which I told you to ignore because they make no difference on the outcome of his finding. That's why I added the arrowhead, and W.N. search, adding that it could be probable of him saying that. Your response had no bearing on the outcome of his find, you just seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing. Travis was only human, that's why I was comparing you to him. If he did try to see if Weaver's Needle could be seen from there, while he was there, even if it is not a good spot, is the same as you posting your restoration projects while you are here, even if there are better forums for it. It makes no difference in his finding, and is not something worth debating. In Travis own written words, he did not stop to look for Weaver's Needle, look for arrowheads, take a leak, or because his car overheated. I actually enjoyed the restorations, and was tempted to post my Camaro, and Cuda.
This will be my last post for a while, so I hope you can rest easy now, knowing that Travis did not stop to there to look for Weaver's Needle.

 

[wrmickel1]

i'll ask him about that too when i see him

Good by me, Dave

He also gave me Bob S. Personal number, Since he is a Stone Guy.
But why does that matter anyways. Ron also said he’s done with those Mountains, word for Word.
You know you could have just asked me, I would have told you.

babymick1

 

[Al D]

You missed the point completely, Travis told his story to different people, who may have told it different. This is why it seems full of holes which I told you to ignore because they make no difference on the outcome of his finding. That's why I added the arrowhead, and W.N. search, adding that it could be probable of him saying that. Your response had no bearing on the outcome of his find, you just seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing. Travis was only human, that's why I was comparing you to him. If he did try to see if Weaver's Needle could be seen from there, while he was there, even if it is not a good spot, is the same as you posting your restoration projects while you are here, even if there are better forums for it. It makes no difference in his finding, and is not something worth debating. In Travis own written words, he did not stop to look for Weaver's Needle, look for arrowheads, take a leak, or because his car overheated. I actually enjoyed the restorations, and was tempted to post my Camaro, and Cuda.
This will be my last post for a while, so I hope you can rest easy now, knowing that Travis did not stop to there to look for Weaver's Needle.

I think the details of the story of how the stones were found is very important, particularly, why did it take two trips to find all of the stones, there is nothing on the P/H tablet to indicate the existence of the other stones, the whole story comes off as fabricated and the actions of Travis indicate that he had some prior knowledge of what was there and where to look for it.

 

[wrmickel1]

You missed the point completely, Travis told his story to different people, who may have told it different. This is why it seems full of holes which I told you to ignore because they make no difference on the outcome of his finding. That's why I added the arrowhead, and W.N. search, adding that it could be probable of him saying that. Your response had no bearing on the outcome of his find, you just seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing. Travis was only human, that's why I was comparing you to him. If he did try to see if Weaver's Needle could be seen from there, while he was there, even if it is not a good spot, is the same as you posting your restoration projects while you are here, even if there are better forums for it. It makes no difference in his finding, and is not something worth debating. In Travis own written words, he did not stop to look for Weaver's Needle, look for arrowheads, take a leak, or because his car overheated. I actually enjoyed the restorations, and was tempted to post my Camaro, and Cuda.
This will be my last post for a while, so I hope you can rest easy now, knowing that Travis did not stop to there to look for Weaver's Needle.

Nice post Coazon de Oro

That was Travis’s Fatal mistake, He thought the Maps started where he found them. That’s why he wound up in Hewitt Canyon. He linked the Stones to the Waltz’s Story, South to North. The Stone Trail runs East to West. The crusher is still there in the brush, the water for panning the crushed ore and the Smelter. All still there. The Horse The Priest The Heart all there.

Babymick1

 

[wrmickel1]

I think the details of the story of how the stones were found is very important, particularly, why did it take two trips to find all of the stones, there is nothing on the P/H tablet to indicate the existence of the other stones, the whole story comes off as fabricated and the actions of Travis indicate that he had some prior knowledge of what was there and where to look for it.

Alan

I’ve metal detected all my life, with lots of different people and I’ve never had one person find something good and not go back to the same place to look more. Ask Carrol I’ll bet his dad went back often. As the others I have mentioned year after year they go back. Now if Travis did not ever go back, Then it would be fishy.

Babymick1

 

[Oroblanco]

Nice post Coazon de Oro

That was Travis’s Fatal mistake, He thought the Maps started where he found them. That’s why he wound up in Hewitt Canyon. He linked the Stones to the Waltz’s Story, South to North. The Stone Trail runs East to West. The crusher is still there in the brush, the water for panning the crushed ore and the Smelter. All still there. The Horse The Priest The Heart all there.

Babymick1

Wow sometimes you amaze me Mick! You just hit the major point I was driving at earlier - to consider what if the stone maps actually are for a different place and area than the Superstitions? Thanks for putting it so clearly. Once a guy starts looking at the Spanish colonial period maps of the southwest, you will quickly see several areas that fit the stone maps, though at a larger scale than eight miles for the eighteen dots.



PS I should have said that Corbin was AG and the actual court prosecution was done by one of his "foot soldiers". He has a LOT of info and don't rule out that he might have met with Jake on several occasions. After all, it was a high-profile case, Jake was negotiating for a plea and reduced sentence etc.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

I have posted this before - I wrote to the Desert Archaeology, Inc, that actually tested the stones. I talked to Jenny Adams and a couple others. Here is one of my responses from them.

----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Jenny Adams <jenny@desert.com>
To: oroblanco@yahoo.com
Sent: Tue, July 20, 2010 1:01:36 PM
Subject: Peralta stones

[FONT=&quot]Dear Beth:

Your email was passed along to me to answer. It was a few years ago that we had the stones you ask about here at Desert. The following puts our contact with the stones in perspective.

In June 2004, Henry Wallace of Desert Archaeology, Inc. (DAI) was contacted by Anne Montgomery, a writer for Arizona Highways with a request for a pro bono evaluation of the stone maps also known as the Peralta Stones. Anne arranged for the stones to be delivered in July to DAI by Ray Grant from the Mining Museum in Phoenix and asked that DAI analysts evaluate them and advise her about when and how the stone maps were made. Elizabeth Miska, Ph.D, Homer Thiel, M.A., and Jenny Adams, Ph.D. considered their geological background, their historic situation, their manufacture techniques, and evidence of post-manufacture deposition.

In summary, their conclusions were that the rocks themselves are not from the Superstition Mountains. The horse, heart, and witch depictions on the stones are not stylistically similar to the iconography of the 1800s, but are common in the 1900s. Similarly, the Spanish lettering and words on the stones are wrong for the mid-1800s and engravings and finishing of the stones were made by power tools. Furthermore, the stones are neither weathered from exposure nor damaged by burial as has been suggested by stories of their rediscovery. Based on these observations, the stone maps are not considered authentic as described in various stories of their origin in the mid-1800s and rediscovery in the mid-1900s. These observations were provided to Anne Montgomery who wrote an article for the January 2005 issue of Arizona Highways. None of the DAI analysts can add anything more to their conclusions at this time.

I hope it answers your questions and good luck with your research.

Sincerely – Jenny

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jenny L. Adams, Ph.D.
Research Archaeologist
Desert Archaeology, Inc.
3975 North Tucson Blvd.
Tucson, Arizona 85716
520-881-2244
520-881-0325 fax
jadams@desert.com
www.desert.com
[/FONT]

 

[Al D]

I have posted this before - I wrote to the Desert Archaeology, Inc, that actually tested the stones. I talked to Jenny Adams and a couple others. Here is one of my responses from them.

----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Jenny Adams <jenny@desert.com>
To: oroblanco@yahoo.com
Sent: Tue, July 20, 2010 1:01:36 PM
Subject: Peralta stones

Dear Beth:

Your email was passed along to me to answer. It was a few years ago that we had the stones you ask about here at Desert. The following puts our contact with the stones in perspective.

In June 2004, Henry Wallace of Desert Archaeology, Inc. (DAI) was contacted by Anne Montgomery, a writer for Arizona Highways with a request for a pro bono evaluation of the stone maps also known as the Peralta Stones. Anne arranged for the stones to be delivered in July to DAI by Ray Grant from the Mining Museum in Phoenix and asked that DAI analysts evaluate them and advise her about when and how the stone maps were made. Elizabeth Miska, Ph.D, Homer Thiel, M.A., and Jenny Adams, Ph.D. considered their geological background, their historic situation, their manufacture techniques, and evidence of post-manufacture deposition.

In summary, their conclusions were that the rocks themselves are not from the Superstition Mountains. The horse, heart, and witch depictions on the stones are not stylistically similar to the iconography of the 1800s, but are common in the 1900s. Similarly, the Spanish lettering and words on the stones are wrong for the mid-1800s and engravings and finishing of the stones were made by power tools. Furthermore, the stones are neither weathered from exposure nor damaged by burial as has been suggested by stories of their rediscovery. Based on these observations, the stone maps are not considered authentic as described in various stories of their origin in the mid-1800s and rediscovery in the mid-1900s. These observations were provided to Anne Montgomery who wrote an article for the January 2005 issue of Arizona Highways. None of the DAI analysts can add anything more to their conclusions at this time.

I hope it answers your questions and good luck with your research.

Sincerely – Jenny

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jenny L. Adams, Ph.D.
Research Archaeologist
Desert Archaeology, Inc.
3975 North Tucson Blvd.
Tucson, Arizona 85716
520-881-2244
520-881-0325 fax
jadams@desert.com
www.desert.com

Non of this is conclusive, nor can it be proven, it is only the opinion of the person who conducted the “analysis”

 

[arcana-exploration]

While the "museum" stones are at the center of everyone's search for answers to this subject......except for RG and the Tumlinsons of course, who have said that Travis had nothing to do with them....., on their own they generate far more questions than answers. Add to that all of the additional unresolved and controversial questions about the evolution of the story since Dec. 1948 and those involved prior to Mitchell's unveiling of the stone maps in Life Magazine in June of '64, and you should realize how much more you will need to know and experience before you will be able to publish a book which will sell in enough numbers to justify the time and expense.
The family is on record, on video and via E-mail, that what Travis was seen carving were smaller stones, all the same color....light grey/white....and that he was working from small scraps of paper while carving them. No use of a dremel tool or electric drill was mentioned by any member of the family. That description happens to fit the stones which RG was later to claim were the "originals" that Travis found near Black Point. One of those is what RG called the "star map", which he said he used to locate the "cajon" or "box" that he claimed was stolen by "Blake". I wouldn't waste any time on those.
Unless there are artifacts within the site itself, which can be dated and traced back to certain individuals, native peoples, and/or a religious order we will never know who all was there and when or why. I have never been to the archives in Mexico or in Spain, but some of what others have found there has been shared in the past by those who have.

Hey, Wayne thanks for the information and input. As far as the book, I am not going to get into much on the stones, other than the information that is contained on them. The stones are a book in them selfs. I really find it interesting, but I am more interested in the info contained on them, which I will discuss in the book. But as far as Travis and RG and all that stuff, I am not going to get into, because it does not matter, and has nothing to do with the map value of the stones. (the parts that are valid). This has been my point, what we have found has nothing to do with TT and RG. As the saying goes " To close to the trees to see the forest". If finding something credible is the goal, then that information really on who did what is not so important to us. We have found a place that will shock a lot of folks I am sure, in fact just yesterday I made a significant discovery that again fits the stones. I know talk is cheap, and for now, It will have to stay so. My goal is not to be a dame expert on every dame thing related to the LDM (an expert on every little thing a master of none). My goal, in the beginning, was to have a plan for research that came at it from a different view. Surprise, it worked. Wayne what I am trying to say is that are book will be as accurate as possible from what we are doing, and finding and to put those facts out there sometime in the not too distant future. What I am saying is we will put out there what we have and documentation to go with it. To do that I will tell our journey (Arcana Exploration), and how it all evolved, It will be truthful, the bad and the best. I know we could find a stash of tools with Jacob Waltz marked on them and some folks still would not believe. So again the only thing I really would like to know is who did the original map info on the stones? WE may never know that? But I think that info is buried somewhere. So again I am not and have no need or interest in knowing every little contradicting tibit on the stones. What we have found had nothing to do with all that TT and RG stuff, it is useless and meaningless to us. I will lightly touch on the history of the stone in the book but will focus more on the info on them, and how it directly matches to the Alpha site. You know having the site for several years and having about 1400 HD photos of the whole site has allowed me to reverse engineer many things. What I found yesterday has had me puzzled for about a year, until a day or two ago, when I photoshopped a photo and blew it up, and found something. Howard and I had breakfast today at Bob Evans and I showed it to him. He smiled and shook his head and said make sure you save this for the book. Wayne, it was something on the Preist Stone that I thought was probably nothing, but again the PS actually is credible and actually does tell a story that is more complex than I originally thought but at the same time is not interpretive, but factual, and can be verified. To those who say the info on the stones is not crediable ( I am saying the map value info) they will have to go to rehab. Time for my 2am walk. Wayne Thanks for your input. Jeff.

 

[wrmickel1]

I have posted this before - I wrote to the Desert Archaeology, Inc, that actually tested the stones. I talked to Jenny Adams and a couple others. Here is one of my responses from them.

----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Jenny Adams <jenny@desert.com>
To: oroblanco@yahoo.com
Sent: Tue, July 20, 2010 1:01:36 PM
Subject: Peralta stones

Dear Beth:

Your email was passed along to me to answer. It was a few years ago that we had the stones you ask about here at Desert. The following puts our contact with the stones in perspective.

In June 2004, Henry Wallace of Desert Archaeology, Inc. (DAI) was contacted by Anne Montgomery, a writer for Arizona Highways with a request for a pro bono evaluation of the stone maps also known as the Peralta Stones. Anne arranged for the stones to be delivered in July to DAI by Ray Grant from the Mining Museum in Phoenix and asked that DAI analysts evaluate them and advise her about when and how the stone maps were made. Elizabeth Miska, Ph.D, Homer Thiel, M.A., and Jenny Adams, Ph.D. considered their geological background, their historic situation, their manufacture techniques, and evidence of post-manufacture deposition.

In summary, their conclusions were that the rocks themselves are not from the Superstition Mountains. The horse, heart, and witch depictions on the stones are not stylistically similar to the iconography of the 1800s, but are common in the 1900s. Similarly, the Spanish lettering and words on the stones are wrong for the mid-1800s and engravings and finishing of the stones were made by power tools. Furthermore, the stones are neither weathered from exposure nor damaged by burial as has been suggested by stories of their rediscovery. Based on these observations, the stone maps are not considered authentic as described in various stories of their origin in the mid-1800s and rediscovery in the mid-1900s. These observations were provided to Anne Montgomery who wrote an article for the January 2005 issue of Arizona Highways. None of the DAI analysts can add anything more to their conclusions at this time.

I hope it answers your questions and good luck with your research.

Sincerely – Jenny

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jenny L. Adams, Ph.D.
Research Archaeologist
Desert Archaeology, Inc.
3975 North Tucson Blvd.
Tucson, Arizona 85716
520-881-2244
520-881-0325 fax
jadams@desert.com
www.desert.com

Mrs Oro

There Company in itself is a red flag. Why would they compare a Priest to a witch. Or why not say what place the Stone There made on is from. I sure that’s a pretty easy thing to judge. They still have a Priest in Rome to this day that wears a pointy hat.
And why would they be stylistically to other Known works. Does every artist copy each other. No, mostly never.
This company should stick with building protective shelters and leave the other stuff to experts.

This is way out of there field.

babymick1

 

[deducer]

I have posted this before - I wrote to the Desert Archaeology, Inc, that actually tested the stones. I talked to Jenny Adams and a couple others. Here is one of my responses from them.

----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Jenny Adams <jenny@desert.com>
To: oroblanco@yahoo.com
Sent: Tue, July 20, 2010 1:01:36 PM
Subject: Peralta stones

[FONT="][FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black]Dear Beth:[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black] [/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black]Your email was passed along to me to answer. It was a few years ago that we had the stones you ask about here at Desert. The following puts our contact with the stones in perspective.[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black] [/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black]In June 2004, Henry Wallace of Desert Archaeology, Inc. (DAI) was contacted by Anne Montgomery, a writer for Arizona Highways with a request for a pro bono evaluation of the stone maps also known as the Peralta Stones. Anne arranged for the stones to be delivered in July to DAI by Ray Grant from the Mining Museum in Phoenix and asked that DAI analysts evaluate them and advise her about when and how the stone maps were made. Elizabeth Miska, Ph.D, Homer Thiel, M.A., and Jenny Adams, Ph.D. considered their geological background, their historic situation, their manufacture techniques, and evidence of post-manufacture deposition.[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black] [/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black]In summary, their conclusions were that the rocks themselves are not from the Superstition Mountains. The horse, heart, and witch depictions on the stones are not stylistically similar to the iconography of the 1800s, but are common in the 1900s. Similarly, the Spanish lettering and words on the stones are wrong for the mid-1800s and engravings and finishing of the stones were made by power tools. Furthermore, the stones are neither weathered from exposure nor damaged by burial as has been suggested by stories of their rediscovery. Based on these observations, the stone maps are not considered authentic as described in various stories of their origin in the mid-1800s and rediscovery in the mid-1900s. These observations were provided to Anne Montgomery who wrote an article for the January 2005 issue of Arizona Highways. None of the DAI analysts can add anything more to their conclusions at this time.[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black] [/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black]I hope it answers your questions and good luck with your research.[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black] [/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black]Sincerely – Jenny[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black] [/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black]Jenny L. Adams, Ph.D.[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black]Research Archaeologist[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black]Desert Archaeology, Inc.[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black]3975 North Tucson Blvd.[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black]Tucson, Arizona 85716[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black]520-881-2244[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black]520-881-0325 fax[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black]jadams@desert.com[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=black][URL="http://www.desert.com/"]www.desert.com[/URL][/FONT]
[/FONT][/COLOR]

I remember this now.

It seems that the observations were cursory, and not detailed.

I wonder if one of the conditions for the Stone Maps being lent out was that it could not be subject to physical or chemical alternations- which would pretty much limit the amount of information you could get from it.

Any reputable scientist would have zeroed in on the fact that the heart stone had been broken and glued back together, and would have subjected the glue to a series of testings.

 

[markmar]

The Horse and the Priest landmarks are so old as the mountain itself. Mother nature was in good mood when made these landmarks. Too big to be hand made.
A superstitious person would believe they were made by a God to mark a specific place. A place out of the reallity. Someone could only wonder by looking at them, and make him feel so small and so weak in front of this magnificence.