Lost Dutchman Mine vs. Hidden Caches

[gollum]

Joe,

I was just in amazement the first time I read those letters. See, in all those books for and against the existence of the DLM (I like the Kollenborn version of the name better), NOT ONE stated unequivocally that the Peraltas ever had operations in the Supers. Everything was supposition.

In those letters, CW disclosed a lot of very detailed information to DER. I know that was not nearly the extent of his knowledge, because he had the constant fear of someone intercepting his mail between him and Ruth. He went so far as to tell Ruth that the way to tell that a letter was REALLY from him was a code "IDENT" after his signature. From reading the letters, it seemed like several of the letters between the two came up missing.

Best-Mike

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

DR.ÖTEK Metal Detector, Waterproof Gold Detector, Pinpoint & Terrain Modes, Professional Metal Detector - Grab it through Amazon!

[mrs.oroblanco]

Believe it or not Mike, I think we were typing at the same time on that word! I didn't see that post until after I posted mine.


But, even if it was 100 years old, that would mean it was not proper in 1932, wouldn't it??

B

 

[cactusjumper]

Beth,

"But, even if it was 100 years old, that would mean it was not proper in 1932, wouldn't it??"

It seems clear that Reed knew exactly what word he was using, used it in the proper context and spelled it correctly. Did you find any other spelling "mistakes" in Reed's letters?

Not being around in 1932, I wouldn't know what words were "proper". On the other hand, I did know that drunkener was a word that had been used in the past, like many such words, it went out of fashon.

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

This thread is moving forward rapidly, and I haven't done a very good job of keeping up with everything so I may have missed this, but is there any documented information available that specifically clarifies exactly why Sims Ely spent his last few years in a sanitarium?

I see arguments going back and forth about his state of mind and mental capacity with the only proof to back up one side or another being circumstantial at best and opinions/judgements at worst. If those are all we have to go on (which would be understandable), it seems to be pointless to argue as it's clear most people have already made up their minds as to Mr. Ely's state of mind and the trustworthiness of his LDM book as far as facts are concerned.

So.... any factual documentation anyone is able to share with the community here?

 

[gollum]

Believe it or not Mike, I think we were typing at the same time on that word! I didn't see that post until after I posted mine.


But, even if it was 100 years old, that would mean it was not proper in 1932, wouldn't it??

B

Beth,

Come on. You're picking gnat $hit out of pepper. The quote I gave you was from 1916. That's pretty close. Besides, Reed was born in 1876. I guess he was using that word long before it went out of style. REALLY Beth, how many words do you use that were popular in your youth that aren't used now?

and in your article, I notice that page 6 is missing, and a few more pages at the end?

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Hi Paul,

I believe the only real evidence readily available, is what we have provided here.
You are correct, in that it is circumstantial. However, the newspaper account of Ely's death stating that he was in the process of writing another book, as well as the inscription he penned in Nov. of 1944, bodes well for his mental capabilities in my estimation. As you know, I am not unfamiliar with the subject.

Thomas told me he would answer my questions about Ely, but needed some time and would get back to me.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Thirsty44]

Mrs Oroblanco,

Thanks very much for posting that article, it looks very interesting. I can't wait to read it, but it looks like page 6 is missing. If you have a chance, could you post it?

Also, can I assume there's no page 9?

Thanks again!

 

[BILL96]

While waltz is an an interesting subject, what really interests me is the fascinating relationships and interplay between all the people that followed. Thomas, Holmes, Bark, Sims,Ruth,Reed and all the rest , what a great story, what intrigue. Just trying to follow all the characters in this story is fascinating. With characters like these this is a good movie just waiting to be written. Waltz may have been the spark, but what followed is so much more interesting, and I do not doubt that it is continuing to this very day.
Bill

 

[Peerless67]

With regard to Ely's mental state/patient record, it is possible that he may have been one of Morris Schwartz "studies" I would guess those studies/notes would be availiable somewhere. An industrious searcher could probably locate them.

This 1954 book seems to be a study of patients at chestnut lodge where Schwartz had spent much time during the time Ely was there.


The Mental Hospital. A Study of Institutional Participation in Psychiatric Illness and Treatment
By Alfred H. Stanton and Morris S. Schwartz.

http://www.pep-web.org/document.php?id=IJP.037.0496A


EDIT:

Tuesdays with Morrie
Mich Albom
Page 109 - 111
Doubleday
ISBN: 0385496494

The Morrie I knew, the Morrie so many others knew, would not have been the man he was without the years he spent working at a mental hospital just outside Washington, D.C., a place with the deceptively peaceful name of Chestnut Lodge. It was one of Morrie's first jobs after plowing through a master's degree and a Ph.D. from the University of Chicago. Having rejected medicine, law, and business, Morrie had decided the research world would be a place where he could contribute without exploiting others.

Morrie was given a grant to observe mental patients and record their treatments. While the idea seems common today, it was groundbreaking in the early fifties. Morrie saw patients who would scream all day. Patients who would cry all night. Patients soiling their underwear. Patients refusing to eat, having to be held down, medicated, fed intravenously.


Gary

 

[cactusjumper]

Beth,

This should end the "drunkener" portion of the conversation. I decided to Google the word and found 2,060 cases where it is used.......most in modern times: [Results 1 - 10 (pages) of about 2,060 for drunkener. (0.37 seconds)]

Reed seems to have received a pretty fair education, judging from his letters. It's true that they were not composed with the best penmanship, but he was no dummy. If you consider how many intellectuals were pursuing him, and how he handled them all, I would say he was a pretty capable man. He had Clay Worst and Chuck Aylor squiring him around the Superstitions, and they were both well educated.

Joe

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Welcome to TNET, Thirsty 44,

B

I didn't say he was a dummy - and just because you can google drunkener, doesn't mean its proper. Get off the subject of "drunkener", there is still the actual facts, that you want to toss out that you think an 11 year olds memory should mean alot, when, with all his "connections" he was unable to find the mine - AND - he didn't even recognize the territory, because he had gone in so many ways.

Not to mention - REED WAS TALKING ABOUT A PLACER MINE - Waltz did not have a placer.




Here's a note for you, too - Ancestry.com has the entire collection - for paid members.

B

 

[cactusjumper]

Beth,

Don't believe I claimed you said he was a dummy.

Personally, as I have said, I don't think he had anything to remember. Don't believe he was ever at Waltz's mine.

You and Mike seemed to be giving "drunkener" a lot of ink. Since I knew it was a word, just threw in my two-cents worth. Sorry you were unable to find it in your dictionary, and sorry for trying to give you the straight skinny.

It's been so long since I got drunk, 20+ years ago, that I forgot the last time I was drunkener than those around me.

Joe

 

[gollum]

All,

I think we should put the drunkener deal to bed. Beth used it as her only example of about 40 pages of letters that he used an improper/misspelled word (which was widely used at the time).

There is no argument here. I mentioned John Reed as being an undervalued player in the DLM Story, and Beth made all kinds of accusations against him (including him being a poor writer and speller).

Beth,

Since EVERY version of EVERY writer's DLM Story is chock full of embellishments and half truths (for various reasons), for the life of me, I can't imagine why you would drink Bark & Ely's kool-aid and completely dismiss someone else. You may want to reread Clay Worst's Article again (especially the last page). Worst and Aylor both agreed that Reed knew some things that might have been researchable, and others that he would have had no way of knowing without having actually been there (headbox and trough at La Barge Springs for one). You also have to remember that the Peraltas had at least eight mines in the Supers. As much as Waltz scoured those mountains, think he might have had more than one source of gold?

Best-Mike

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Mike,

I am not meaning to dismiss Reed - at all.

What I am doing (in my own priorities), is putting Reed BELOW Ely, and again I will reiterate WHY. Simply because of his age when he went there, and his several different ways of going in, and because he drew maps for Ely, and - last, and certainly not least - he could not go and find his own way back. Of course, there are alot of things around his writings that also cause me to bump it down, like his talk of placer, which would mean NOT the LDM, or he doesn't know the difference, (or, for some reason did not know Waltz's mine was lode) but it doesn't completely take him off the list.

There is a difference between completely dismissing something (which, in the case of the LDM is not a good thing to do), and prioritizing what information you think is number 1, then 2, then 3rd and so forth.

I cannot, in anyway - put Reed's information in a higher priority than Ely. It's really simple, even after reading what Clay Worst had to say.

B

 

[Cubfan64]

Joe, you said...

Personally, I think he was using them all for bird dogs. Not unheard of in LDM circles.

I believe that also, but I'm pretty certain our views aren't the same. If I understand you correctly, your feeling is that Reed likely had never been to Waltz's mine and had no special knowledge of the location at all. While I have no proof whatsoever, I tend to think he DID have information specific to either Waltz's mine or one of his caches.

My feeling is that he gave out just enough information to the right people (Worst, Ely, etc...) to whet their appetites. I believe it was his hope that he could get one or more of them to share some of their information and also to "guide" them into the mountains the way Clay and Chuck did so that as you said, they could be "bird dogs" for him. I believe his hope was that he could use everyone else to get him to the general area at which point he could then utilize whatever clues he never shared to ultimately locate the exact spot he was looking for.

Whether he was successful or not, I suppose we'll never know, but I don't believe someone as shrewd as John Reed appeared to be in his letters would have been stupid enough to just get Clay and Chuck to guide him around the mountains on the off chance that they would stumble on the LDM. I think he knew more than he ever revealed to anyone.

 

[gollum]

Mike,

I am not meaning to dismiss Reed - at all.

What I am doing (in my own priorities), is putting Reed BELOW Ely, and again I will reiterate WHY. Simply because of his age when he went there, and his several different ways of going in, and because he drew maps for Ely, and - last, and certainly not least - he could not go and find his own way back. Of course, there are alot of things around his writings that also cause me to bump it down, like his talk of placer, which would mean NOT the LDM, or he doesn't know the difference, (or, for some reason did not know Waltz's mine was lode) but it doesn't completely take him off the list.

There is a difference between completely dismissing something (which, in the case of the LDM is not a good thing to do), and prioritizing what information you think is number 1, then 2, then 3rd and so forth.

I cannot, in anyway - put Reed's information in a higher priority than Ely. It's really simple, even after reading what Clay Worst had to say.

B

See Beth,

That's why I think its funny. Ely was OLD when he wrote his book. Granted, he may have used notes (likely he did), but how much stuff was remembered not quite the way it was in reality. I actually put them both on the same level. See, if Ely used notes to write his book, then where are those notes? POOOOOOF! Unless they are the mysterious set that Spangler has. EVERYONE that has written a book, has done so out of their own best interests. NONE of the Dutch Hunters was a philanthropist. See, I actually put ALL of them on the same level. Take it all in with a grain of salt.

You give Reed far too little credit. From reading his letters over again last night, I get the impression that Reed was about as crafty as they come.

Also, if Ely's notes are the penultimate source, then why hasn't anybody found the DLM yet? I mean, come on, it's been 57 years! Ely's notes are about as good information as Reed's. I do agree that Reed probably never saw Waltz' LODE Mine. I will bet that Waltz was also working one of the other Peralta Mines (Placer). Trust me, from reading ALL of Reed's letters to both Erwin Ruth and Clay Worst, I promise you that he knew the difference between Placer and Lode.

As I have said numerous times before: This is the United States of America, and you are free to believe ANYTHING or ANYONE you wish. You will likely have the same luck as everyone else who has done the same thing for the last 57 years. HAHAHA

Best-Mike

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Cubfan,

Your assumption is incorrect. (about what I meant).

Reed spent at least 3 weeks somewhere. If it was the LDM, he would have known it was a lode mine (making the assumption that he knew the differences between lode and placer - and caches) I am pretty sure Reed was there, with his father. But, exactly where? He could not go back to the spot.

If you have read some of the papers, make note of a certain person saying that the Peralta's had 3 mines - 2 of which he thought Waltz had contact with - one lode and one placer - and he probably left the placer mine, because the lode mine was richer. So, where was Reed and his father? Reed doesn't know. (but it does sound like a placer mine, if you can pick it right up and put it in your pocket).

Birddog might be a good word - I think he was looking for someone to do the work, and collect some profit. He definitely complained about his father never sharing a thing with him.

I don't think Clay Worst needed Reed to get the LDM bug - that's actually funny He'd done research at least 2 years before he had personal contact with Reed.

Mike,

Also, if Ely's notes are the penultimate source, then why hasn't anybody found the DLM yet?

We are getting a little "smarmy" aren't we? I can say the exact same about Reed - who supposedly didn't need to find it, he already had been there on more than one occasion.

Please don't change what I say. I never, ever said Ely was the one and only - not even close. What I did say, and, I really am not going to repeat it again and again, is that I believe that Reed's information is more suspect, to me, than Ely's.

I agree, he was crafty - in fact, maybe to the point of being a bit of a low-life - giving out maps here and there, talking to people here and there, telling everyone that "don't worry, they couldn't find it with the info I gave them", and frankly, I think he was praying on Ruth, but, that doesn't really count when it comes to what we are discussing.

Anyway - I think Reed probably had some information - but didn't make any good use of it, couldn't even use it for himself, and, he didn't find the mine, either. And, it was mostly based on what he remembered from his childhood days (I wonder when he went to school if he spent all that time running around with his father?)

And, I still think Ely was better at doing his homework, and who he talked to. All things considered, you'd think Ely and Reed would have the same information - but - that didn't happen. To be sure, I don't think Ely had it all, either. But he didn't spend most of his time trying to convince others and "playing the field" like Reed, either.

I just don't happen to think that youth automatically trumps old.

B

By the way, Mike - I have never, nor will I probably ever, follow exactly in anyone's footsteps (figuratively and physically), because, like most
Dutchies, I think there is something that everyone has missed. (we all have our own ideas - and I do not believe in doing the same things over and over and expecting different results)

 

[gollum]

REED PRAYING ON RUTH? THAT'S A LAUGH!

Ruth contacted Reed not vice versa. In all my letters from Reed to Ruth, Reed never once asked Ruth anything about the DLM. It was always Ruth asking Reed to give him descriptions of the routes and the mine. Reed never asked Ruth for a cent. Ruth drew a map of the Supers and Reed filled it in to the best of his memory. The only thing he asked was that if his information led to a gold mine then they should take care of him. YEAH! That sounds like he preyed on Ruth!

.........and I guess you should read the Clay Worst Article again:

First: Reed told CW "The first thing you've got to know (Reed advised) is the nature of the ore. IT ISN'T A PLACER MINE AT ALL. Ely was with the interior department, so I figured he knew a lot of geologists and I thought a description of the mine might tell them what kind of country it might be found in."

Next: He hadn't gone in three times at all. He stated to Worst quite clearly that he put that in his letter so that if someone blabbed, he would know the origins of it. (Ruth or Worst) "....only twice, and we only saw "Walzy" on the first trip. The last trip the place looked like it had been deserted for years."

Like I have said several times before; There is just as much or more to be found outside what was written in those letters than inside. Since Clay Worst is the last person alive that actually corresponded with Reed, I guess his recollection of what Reed said is very valuable.

I absolutely stand by my original statement that Reed is highly undervalued by most DLM Hunters (if they even know his name).

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

It seems I need to clarify my thoughts for everyone, just so you know where I am coming from.

Beth is exactly right, IMHO, concerning the level of trust to put in Ely and Reed. I agree with her completely on that.

Paul is correct about Reed having some "inside" information. It's all a question of where it came from. My guess would be that it came to him through a direct, of indirect, connection to John D. Mitchell. While circumstantial, it seems logical from the evidence provided in the various letters.

Ely was not "old" when he started writing that book. On the other hand, he was old when he finished it. I don't see how anyone's information could be as good as Ely's. The closest people to the truth about Waltz's mine were Julia and Rhiney. Bark questioned both extensively, and Ely spent a lot of time getting Julia's story. Everyone who came afterwards, knew much less than those four people. The truth was not obscured by the "Hell I Was There" syndrome, once the LDM legend started gaining speed.

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

First - WELCOME TO TREASURENET Thirst44!
Gollum wrote

Beth,

Since EVERY version of EVERY writer's DLM Story is chock full of embellishments and half truths (for various reasons), for the life of me, I can't imagine why you would drink Bark & Ely's kool-aid and completely dismiss someone else. You may want to reread Clay Worst's Article again (especially the last page). Worst and Aylor both agreed that Reed knew some things that might have been researchable, and others that he would have had no way of knowing without having actually been there (headbox and trough at La Barge Springs for one). You also have to remember that the Peraltas had at least eight mines in the Supers. As much as Waltz scoured those mountains, think he might have had more than one source of gold?

Uh, if someone values Ely's version over Reeds, it is "drinking kool-aid"?

Gollum also wrote

See Beth,
<snip>
You give Reed far too little credit. From reading his letters over again last night, I get the impression that Reed was about as crafty as they come.

Also, if Ely's notes are the penultimate source, then why hasn't anybody found the DLM yet? I mean, come on, it's been 57 years! Ely's notes are about as good information as Reed's. I do agree that Reed probably never saw Waltz' LODE Mine. I will bet that Waltz was also working one of the other Peralta Mines (Placer). Trust me, from reading ALL of Reed's letters to both Erwin Ruth and Clay Worst, I promise you that he knew the difference between Placer and Lode.

As I have said numerous times before: This is the United States of America, and you are free to believe ANYTHING or ANYONE you wish. You will likely have the same luck as everyone else who has done the same thing for the last 57 years. HAHAHA

Why should Reed be given more credit? Who said Beth is actively looking for the LDM, or using Ely or any other source for this assumed search?

Gollum also wrote

REED PRAYING ON RUTH? THAT'S A LAUGH!

Ruth contacted Reed not vice versa. In all my letters from Reed to Ruth, Reed never once asked Ruth anything about the DLM. It was always Ruth asking Reed to give him descriptions of the routes and the mine. Reed never asked Ruth for a cent. Ruth drew a map of the Supers and Reed filled it in to the best of his memory. The only thing he asked was that if his information led to a gold mine then they should take care of him. YEAH! That sounds like he preyed on Ruth!

.........and I guess you should read the Clay Worst Article again:

First: Reed told CW "The first thing you've got to know (Reed advised) is the nature of the ore. IT ISN'T A PLACER MINE AT ALL. Ely was with the interior department, so I figured he knew a lot of geologists and I thought a description of the mine might tell them what kind of country it might be found in."

Next: He hadn't gone in three times at all. He stated to Worst quite clearly that he put that in his letter so that if someone blabbed, he would know the origins of it. (Ruth or Worst) "....only twice, and we only saw "Walzy" on the first trip. The last trip the place looked like it had been deserted for years."

Like I have said several times before; There is just as much or more to be found outside what was written in those letters than inside. Since Clay Worst is the last person alive that actually corresponded with Reed, I guess his recollection of what Reed said is very valuable.

I absolutely stand by my original statement that Reed is highly undervalued by most DLM Hunters (if they even know his name).

Best-Mike

You seem to get a very different interpretation from the very same set of letters and articles. Reed was talking about a placer mine from the start, and later changes it; he tells of "at least" three visits, all while a child, then later changes it. He tells one set of directions to one person, then writes to another and tells him they won't find anything with his directions. He never once mentioned about having to break up ore to get gold out, which indicates that he was always talking about a placer. Clearly he was comfortable with lying to one person and another, which really ought to raise a red flag on his information as a whole.

Waltz told Julia or Reiney about his hard-rock mine. The ore specimens which exist are lode, not placer. I see no reason to give Reed equal credit or credence with Sims Ely or Jim Bark. He could very well have been just someone trying to inject himself into the LDM, and get a cut of any profits if someone actually found it. As you pointed out,

This is the United States of America, and you are free to believe ANYTHING or ANYONE you wish. You will likely have the same luck as everyone else who has done the same thing for the last 57 years. HAHAHA
Oroblanco