Lost Dutchman Mine vs. Hidden Caches

[Oroblanco]

PS - one more thing, not to beat poor John Reed to death on his credibility, but he described the gold as "nuggets" repeatedly. Nuggets is a term normally used for placer gold, and remember Waltz's mine was hardrock, not placer. I suppose you could describe ore hunks as "nuggets" but it would be incorrect. Just another little tidbit that gave me doubts on Reed.
Oroblanco

 

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[cactusjumper]

Beth,

That letter was from the Eleanor Clark Collection, and was not in Greg Davis' Collection until he received it from Garry. We sent the original letters to him when we had them all copied. Those letters are reserved for the museum, but are available for all to see and copy, as you folks have.

The word you and Mike are quibbling over is "drunkener". Like all of Reed's letters, he has spelled the word correctly. While not a word in common usage, it's something someone like Reed would be familiar with. You have misjudged Reed's intelligence and book larnen over one word that you are unfamiliar with.

I have read all of Reed's letters, and believe he could spell better than many of that era. IMHO, before making that kind of judgement you should have taken all of the letter(s) into consideration.

On the other hand, It's nice that people are paying some attention to Eleanor's Collection. She would be thrilled to know it.

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

PPS - sorry for this choppy posting, but you guys got Beth to dig out those letters and so now I had to go and check, and YES John Reed was claiming to be an active participant in at least one holdup of Waltz, he said when Walz dropped his rifle, he went and picked it up, this being what he claims he was taking part in in the 1884 trip, and Reed would have been EIGHT years old. John also said he unbuckled Waltz's revolver and took it off him too. So yes it is accurate to say that John Reed was bragging about HIS robbing Jacob Waltz.

Would you take a boy of FIVE into the Superstitions, with no other adult along? Would you have an 8 year old along on an armed robbery? I just can't put much faith into John Reed's stories, but that is a personal opinion.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Mike,

It may be spelled correctly in your transcripts, but, in the actual hand-written letter, it is spelled "drunkener". (its in the hand-written penciled letter that he sent to Erwin Ruth on February 23, 1932.

B

Okay Beth,

Found it. Maybe in modern English Grammar, drunker would be correct, but if you Google "drunkener", you will find several early writings that use the word. I guess what was good grammar a hundred years ago ain't no good no more! HAHAHA

You said that he stated he couldn't find the place because he was only a child, buuuuuut....in the letter you referenced, he wrote Dr. Ruth:

"*Now Mr. Ruth its one thing to write this and another to find the place. I AM POSITIVE I CAN RECOGNIZE THE PLACE AGAIN IF I SHOULD SEE IT, but I'm not positive that I can exactly retrace our steps from La Barge Canyon to the mine. If we had followed the the same path even for a couple of miles to & from the mine each time I might do so, but we never did as father always figured on as few tracks as possible."

If you read all the letters, it seems fairly certain that Erwin Ruth, Clay Worst, Northcutt and Sims Ely, and Bark all looked up Reed and not the other way around. In his own words, he never talked much about the subject to people in St Louis outside his own family. Maybe one of you know if he ever tried selling a book about his experiences? Not to my knowledge. Like I have stated MANY times in the past, I look at people's actions more than their words.

He didn't sell his story. Write a book and cash in on the LDM Story (like most others did). All those famous Dutch Hunters searched him out and not vice versa. If the people who found him seemed to him disreputable, he lied about the mine's location. If he thought them honest, he gave out information as he remembered it. I may by completely wrong and he could be a quack, but I don't recall him ever asking for money in ANY of the letters I read. On the surface, it looks pretty straight forward to me.

Joe,

Maybe you could post Clay Worst's Article about Reed?

Best-Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Listening and plotting.

Don Jose La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

I don't believe Clay would mind, but the "Superstition Mountain Journal" is copyrighted material. The article can be found in Volume 6 from 1987. It is fairly long for the Journal, eleven pages in all.

I believe you may be wrong about Reed not contacting any of those listed first. I would need to reread all of the letters to be sure, but believe I am correct here.

Joe

 

[gollum]

Roy,

Okay, the last one I don't think was a robbery. Reed had no problem saying when his father robbed Walz. Said it plain and simple. This time he just said that his father and Walz had almost fought except his father had the draw on him. He dropped his rifle. Reed picked it up and unbuckled his holster. He then said that Walz left and left his nuggets behind, whereupon his father took them.

Joe,

If there are copyright issues, maybe just give a slightly detailed synopsis of the story. In all these letters between Reed and Worst, I don't see anything but admiration for the man.

Best-Mike

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

CJ,

I don't believe I mentioned anyone's name - I just said I had copies.

First - you really don't think "drunkener" is a proper word, do you?

From Dictionary.com

drunkener- no dictionary results
No results found for drunkener:
Did you mean drunken?
Dictionary:
drunkenly

drinker

From Websters

The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary. Click on a spelling suggestion below or try again using the search bar above.

drunken
drunk tank
trunk line
drinking
drunkard
drinker
trinketry
durometer
truncheon
grenadier


Back to the basics - John Reed, himself said he was not a good writer - so, we should take some things at face value, that he said, but, not anything else?

Reed was his fathers son - in his own words, when his father and Waltz (spelled Walz) got into an arguement, he grabbed Waltz's rifle. He also played both ends against the middle - talking to Sims, then Ruth, then Sims and back and forth, most of the time with interjections of "but he can't find it on what I said" and "don't tell anyone what I said" and much of everything in secrecy to all he spoke to. He did meet with Ely, according to him, and drew him some maps, etc., etc.

This man, who made several trips, supposedly, with his father, up to the age of 11, including a trip that lasted over 3 weeks, could not, after 20 years of looking, find it himself. It makes me question the validity of his claims, or at least his memory on anything.

Nobody has given me a good answer to the question - why would an 11 year olds memories outweigh anything Sims Ely said in years of research?

Which is the original point of this debate - Reed supposedly is given less weight than he should, according to some. I think we are giving him WAY too much weight.

Reed contacted the Sheriff in Phoenix to get Ruth and Barkley's addresses.

Beth

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Going back over Clay's article, it's clear that he contacted Reed first. I can't help but think that Clay had serious, unwritten, doubts about Reed. In my mind, the story was slanted to keep people away from Clay's area of interest. I could, or course, be wrong.

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Beth,

[Upon the ashes of this famous society arose an equally patriotic but perhaps less beneficent organisation. The Poker Club, as its name indicated, was intended to be an instrument for stirring opinion. The cause to be agitated was the establishment of a Scotch Militia on national lines, to be followed, as some of its radical members hoped, by a parliamentary reform which would "let the industrious farmer and manufacturer share at last in a privilege now engrossed by the great lord, the drunken laird, and the drunkener bailie."]

_________________________________________________________

You would have to be a serious reader to have found Francis Hirst's book, where the above quote came from. Yes it's a word......"proper", maybe not, but it can be found with little effort. It, basically, means drunker than drunken.

Joe

 

[gollum]

Joe,

I think you hit the nail on the head. I have ALL those letters. Clay Worst first contacted Erwin Ruth asking him if he had any contact with John Reed. He had been looking for him, and couldn't find him.

A couple of excerpts from a letter of 15 October 1949:

Dear Dr. Ruth,

A short dispatch with reference to Mr. John Reed, of St Louis. It would appear that if a sincere effort to relocate the site of the Peralta Operations is to be made, it would be not only desirable but of paramount importance to establish contact with Mr. Reed.

Beth,

I SAID IT IS NOT PROPER IN MODERN ENGLISH GRAMMAR! Please read my post. Maybe if I repeat it: If you Google the word "drunkener" you will find several pieces written in earlier times (late 1800s - early 1900s) that use the word in PUBLISHED WORKS.

It is not often that the whole of a crew is drunk. The crew of the Sea-Fancy was no drunkener than others. It happened like this.

Tales of Wonder....1916

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Listening and plotting.

Don Jose La Mancha

PLOTTING?

 

[gollum]

Joe,

I didn't know Clay W. had done SO MUCH research into the Peralta Aspect of the story.

I won't post anything that seems like it should be private information, but he put the timeline of Don Miguel Peralta Y Cordoba and his families' actions in the Supers in proper perspective. It is unlike anything I have seen written anywhere else. In his letters to Ruth, he wrote about how he went all over Northern Mexico, New Mexico, and Arizona, looking for information, and found a map in Guadalajara which was the original of the one Adolph Ruth carried with him into the Supers in 1931.

Have you seen the letters I'm speaking of?

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Beth,

"This man, who made several trips, supposedly, with his father, up to the age of 11, including a trip that lasted over 3 weeks, could not, after 20 years of looking, find it himself. It makes me question the validity of his claims, or at least his memory on anything."

Reed stated that he made three trips to the mine with his father, over a seven year period, with the last trip taking place when he was 12 years old. That means his first trip was age 5. Someone probably needs to check my math.

Each trip into the mine was from a different starting place. The last trip was from the Salt River. Once they came in from Globe and his first trip they came in from Tucson.

You really expect him to remember where the mine was? Not a chance! They had him all over the range, and came up with nada.

Personally, I think he was using them all for bird dogs. Not unheard of in LDM circles.

Joe

 

[gollum]

Beth,

"This man, who made several trips, supposedly, with his father, up to the age of 11, including a trip that lasted over 3 weeks, could not, after 20 years of looking, find it himself. It makes me question the validity of his claims, or at least his memory on anything."

Reed stated that he made three trips to the mine with his father, over a seven year period, with the last trip taking place when he was 12 years old. That means his first trip was age 5. Someone probably needs to check my math.

Each trip into the mine was from a different starting place. The last trip was from the Salt River. Once they came in from Globe and his first trip they came in from Tucson.

You really expect him to remember where the mine was? Not a chance! They had him all over the range, and came up with nada.

Personally, I think he was using them all for bird dogs. Not unheard of in LDM circles.

Joe

You would know all about someone using others as bird dogs in the Supers, wouldn't you (La France)? HAHAHA

Beth,

If you would have read my quote from Reed to Ruth, you would see that it said the exact same thing. While he couldn't remember the route (different every time), he would have no problem remembering the place when he was there.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

"Have you seen the letters I'm speaking of?"

Here's the deal Mike, I get lucky once in awhile and the wheels come to a stop on a dim memory. Most of the time, can't remember what I had for breakfast.

Your story sounds familiar, but I have thousands of sheets of documents and facts.........unorganized, just like me. Don't think I will go searching for one particular letter tonight. If pressed, I could probably dig them out.

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

"While he couldn't remember the route (different every time), he would have no problem remembering the place when he was there."

Actually, he remembered most of the routes very well. He describes them, in detail, in Clay's article.

Joe

 

[gollum]

Joe,

I was quoting his response to Erwin Ruth asking him about the routes in and the location of the mine.

The confounding thing is that the responses of Ruth to Reed and Ruth to Worst aren't there. From reading the Ruth side of the letters, it looks as though Ruth drew a map of the area and sent it to Reed, in hopes of Reed being able to retrace his route in.

In a few letters, Reed tells Ruth that he has pretty much filled in the map he was sent. He then goes over in detail the names of the places he remembered (it seemed about complete). I won't post those instructions here unless you think CW wouldn't mind (after all, it is his information).

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Joe,
Reed's letter states he was about eleven (11) on his last trip to the mine, in Jan-Feb of 1888, his first trip being in 1881 when he was 5. He was born in November of 1876, so in 1888 would have been 11 in Feb, until turning 12 that November. Not a key point, but it is pretty young.
Roy

 

[Oroblanco]

PS - Reed's description of the routes he took in to the mine are interesting too, especially the one up Pinto creek, north of Iron mountain, down Rough canyon, along into Fish Creek canyon, then across the hills southwest to LaBarge canyon, then northwest up LaBarge then up and over the canyon wall, and out into the broken country around Weavers Needle. That would make quite a hike.
Oroblanco