Lost Dutchman Mine vs. Hidden Caches

[mrs.oroblanco]

CJ,

Thank you for the input - you've said something that I should have - there was, indeed, a combination of factors, as you have brought up.

Mike,

Remember Holmes and his son? Don't you think that alot of what Holmes did and believed had a lot to do with his father's life and information?

I see a little of that with Ruth - its called being an "opportunist". (your word was "crafty").

I'm going to quote something:

Mr. Ruth,

I don't know whether Mr. Worst wrote you as to our trip to Arizona, last winter or not.
However, I decided perhaps I had better write you myself.
The Worsts have what they describe as a gentleman's agreement, between themselves, you
and their prospector's church. There seems to be no written agreement on the matter.

Now this last summer I have tried to get some kind of legal agreement, a signed document
showing just what each of us would get, out of the mine I was looking for.

But they do not seem to be inclined to do it, and I am not inclined to go any further with
them at present.

I wondered if you would be willing to go in on this business yourself.

I have, I think enough cash, to open up the place, pay the recording and surveying fees &
show a useable mine.

But, I would like to have some business man, in on this, someone with brains and cash
to back up what I do.

I think I should have an air compressor, some air drills and a small truck for transporting
materials. These things would not be needed until the mine was opened up and we saw
what we had.

There is considerable level ground between First Water Ranch & the Needle & most of the
rest is side hill ground that could be worked down to a passable road for a small truck.
This would do away with mule packing, which is slow and expensive.

Now, would you be willing to put in enough capital to buy the air compressor, drills &
truck & take a half interest in the mine in exchange? " unquote


There is more to the letter, of course, and it has "between you and me, no one else", and he says
that if he doesn't want to do that, he will look elsewhere.

I call that "hitting the guy up" - Ruth already had an interest with Worst, so he was planning on
double-crossing the Worsts AND Ruth, as if Ruth did not want to participate with him, he would
do it with someone else, and Ruth was already part of the Worst/Ruth agreement. Reed would
have taken over the mine and kept it for him and his own partner, whoever had money.

I don't know, but, I don't think much of how he conducted his "business"

B

 

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[gollum]

Roy,

Go back and reread the thread. When I mentioned Thomas Glover's Book and in 1891 Waltz talking about multiple caches, all I heard was Sims Ely, Sims Ely, Sims Ely. He said that there were three, he took one, and dug up another, leaving only one. So if Burns had found a cache it had to be Waltz last one because Sims Ely said so.

When I mentioned John Reed, Beth shot back immediately with how much of a dirtbag Reed was. Sims Ely said.

Reread Beth's comments to AZHiker when he started talking badly of Sims Ely.

I think there is a case to be made there for her drinking Ely's Kool-Aid.

As for the rest of what Reed wrote as opposed to what he said to Clay Worst in person. You don't seem to have a problem with believing what Waltz told Julia Thomas or Rhinehart Petrasch, EVEN THOUGH he told multiple people multiple versions of how he came to own his mine. There were three versions of THAT story alone! If you believe the most widely recognized version, Waltz murdered the original Mexicans working on the mine. He killed his nephew (probably). Most people accept the fact that Waltz killed several people over the years. So, by yours and Beths' logic, we should place no weight on anything Waltz said because he was a liar and murderer. That would negate EVERYTHING said to Thomas, Petrasch, and Holmes. What's left?If you are going to apply your logic to one part of the story, then you have to apply your same logic to EVERY PART! Otherwise you are being totally intellectually dishonest.

Along those same lines, how many well known Dutch Hunters have had changing stories, or admitted to believing one thing and saying something else? So we should disregard everything they said too.

I have said this several times as well, so maybe Roy should go over my posts a little closer; I take in what EVERYBODY says and writes, and give everybody equal weight. I also take everything I read and hear with a grain of salt. I have read one thing about Clay Worst, and through those letters, found information that FAR surpassed anything I had previously thought of the man.

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

CJ,

Thank you for the input - you've said something that I should have - there was, indeed, a combination of factors, as you have brought up.

Mike,

Remember Holmes and his son? Don't you think that alot of what Holmes did and believed had a lot to do with his father's life and information?

I see a little of that with Ruth - its called being an "opportunist". (your word was "crafty").

I'm going to quote something:

Mr. Ruth,

I don't know whether Mr. Worst wrote you as to our trip to Arizona, last winter or not.
However, I decided perhaps I had better write you myself.
The Worsts have what they describe as a gentleman's agreement, between themselves, you
and their prospector's church. There seems to be no written agreement on the matter.

Now this last summer I have tried to get some kind of legal agreement, a signed document
showing just what each of us would get, out of the mine I was looking for.

But they do not seem to be inclined to do it, and I am not inclined to go any further with
them at present.

I wondered if you would be willing to go in on this business yourself.

I have, I think enough cash, to open up the place, pay the recording and surveying fees &
show a useable mine.

But, I would like to have some business man, in on this, someone with brains and cash
to back up what I do.

I think I should have an air compressor, some air drills and a small truck for transporting
materials. These things would not be needed until the mine was opened up and we saw
what we had.

There is considerable level ground between First Water Ranch & the Needle & most of the
rest is side hill ground that could be worked down to a passable road for a small truck.
This would do away with mule packing, which is slow and expensive.

Now, would you be willing to put in enough capital to buy the air compressor, drills &
truck & take a half interest in the mine in exchange? " unquote


There is more to the letter, of course, and it has "between you and me, no one else", and he says
that if he doesn't want to do that, he will look elsewhere.

I call that "hitting the guy up" - Ruth already had an interest with Worst, so he was planning on
double-crossing the Worsts AND Ruth, as if Ruth did not want to participate with him, he would
do it with someone else, and Ruth was already part of the Worst/Ruth agreement. Reed would
have taken over the mine and kept it for him and his own partner, whoever had money.

I don't know, but, I don't think much of how he conducted his "business"

B

Beth,

You are proving my point with your own post! He said he would not expect Ruth to buy anything until AFTER they had gone in the mine and seen what's there!

He was coming up with his own money to do his part of everything until they found the mine, at which time he would need the extra money for equipment.

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I SAID! He didn't say to Ruth that Ruth had to pay for his lodging, travel, and food. Didn't EVER ask for ANYTHING for giving of his knowledge. On the contrary, he freely filled out the map Ruth sent him to the best of his ability.

Thanks for proving my point Beth!

Best-Mike

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Sorry, I forgot something.


Reeds first letter to Ruth, starts out by saying
quote:

Mr. Ruth
Dear Sir.

I am a stranger to you & I don't want you to think I am interferring with your personal affairs
But, I saw a piece in our paper here a few weeks ago regarding the mine in Arizona & yourself
& father interest in same." unquote.

There is always a "but", isn't there.

Anyway - who contacted who?

B


Proving your point? Are you completely missing the point that he was going to go behind the backs of the ones he already had an agreement with? Or do you just not want to see that part?

 

[Oroblanco]

Gollum wrote

Roy,

Go back and reread the thread.

I don't have any reading and interpretation problems; when I run across a big word that I don't understand, I even know how to use the dictionary to find out what it means. You are fond of telling me to "go back and re-read" well amigo it sure looks to me as if this is what you need to do. You have mis-interpreted Reed's own letters, as him telling what his father told him, when he included himself as present at several of the visits to the mine. Worst's article points out that Reed's mine is placer gold in hard-packed gravels, which is not lode, yet you seem to get that they are talking about a lode.

You place a good deal of reliance on John Reed, equal to Ely and all others. That is your prerogative and choice. I don't place Reed on equal footing with Ely, that is my choice. I don't place a whole lot of weight in any "clues" for they have not served for anyone to find the LDM. If I were going to look again, (I am thinking about it) I would not rely on clues from any source. I don't pretend to know everything about the LDM and every single person who ever was a part of the legend, and don't think anyone knows everything.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

REALLY?​

I think Reed stated what happened quite clearly:

The Worsts have what they describe as a gentleman's agreement, between themselves, you
and their prospector's church. There seems to be no written agreement on the matter.

Now this last summer I have tried to get some kind of legal agreement, a signed document
showing just what each of us would get, out of the mine I was looking for.

But they do not seem to be inclined to do it, and I am not inclined to go any further with
them at present.

Nobody was going behind anybody else's back! Clay Worst refused to put in writing what everybody's shares would be if they found the mine. Without something written down, then Reed could have been a$$ed out if he had shown them the mine.

WOULD YOU GO IN ON A PLAN AND GIVE YOUR KNOWLEDGE WITH NOTHING IN WRITING AS TO HOW MUCH YOU WOULD GET FROM IT? I WOULDN'T!

Reed wanted things in writing before giving up the last of his information. I agree with Joe that he used Worst and Aylor to help him bird dog his mine. I also believe it is possible he recognized where the mine was and since neither CW or CA would put anything in writing, he kept mum. He then made an offer to Ruth.

Remember, he didn't trust Ely or Bark. That's why he gave them bad directions and would never accept their money for passage to AZ.

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

Gollum wrote

Roy,

Go back and reread the thread.

I don't have any reading and interpretation problems; when I run across a big word that I don't understand, I even know how to use the dictionary to find out what it means. You are fond of telling me to "go back and re-read" well amigo it sure looks to me as if this is what you need to do. You have mis-interpreted Reed's own letters, as him telling what his father told him, when he included himself as present at several of the visits to the mine. Worst's article points out that Reed's mine is placer gold in hard-packed gravels, which is not lode, yet you seem to get that they are talking about a lode.

You place a good deal of reliance on John Reed, equal to Ely and all others. That is your prerogative and choice. I don't place Reed on equal footing with Ely, that is my choice. I don't place a whole lot of weight in any "clues" for they have not served for anyone to find the LDM. If I were going to look again, (I am thinking about it) I would not rely on clues from any source. I don't pretend to know everything about the LDM and every single person who ever was a part of the legend, and don't think anyone knows everything.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

JESUS CHRIST ROY!

Reread my last quote from Worst's article where Reed told him that the "nature of the mine was not a placer mine at all!" Do you get that? "NOT A PLACER MINE AT ALL!" "NOT A PLACER MINE AT ALL!"

OKAY,

Reread the right hand column of page 5 of the article. Reed explains to Worst exactly why he said what he did and wrote what he did. I have made it easy for you. I blew up the section. Enjoy!

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

Let's see.....hmmmmm:

the shaft of white rock that sent sharp shards when you hit it was 1 to 2 feet wide. HHHHMMMMM SOUNDS AMAZINGLY LIKE WALTZ' DESCRIPTION OF THE 18" WIDE VEIN OF QUARTZ IN HIS MINE!

Looks like your definition of reading comprehension is different from mine.

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Yeah that is enough for me. Good luck.
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Yeah that is enough for me. Good luck.
Oroblanco

I agree. I'm done for the night.

Best-Mike

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Mike,

Do we know exactly when - and how - Reed decided it was a lode?

I'm asking, because in his letter to Ruth in 1932, he says:

"My father went to this same mine (at least I think it was the same one) 3 times
taking me along, as a boy & I recollect the place distinctively"

Then, in a letter to Mrs. Barkley, he says: (talking about meeting up with Waltz at the mine)

"My father was suspicious, but he couldn't prove any different.
However, he filled his pockets with nuggets & moved on."

Then, in his pencil-written letter, he says that: (again talking about robbing Waltz)

"He went away again & left his nuggets behind and father took them and we stayed
about 3 weeks"

In the same letter, he says "I'm not dead sure its the same place, but I think it is"


I have never used the term "nuggets" for anything other than the result of placer gold mining.

If its lode gold, I call it "ore" or "gold ore" or "lode".

This is where the discrepancy is coming in.


He also, in another letter, alludes to there being more than one spot, specifically one placer, one lode, and I don't remember what the 3rd is supposed to be (and I'm tired of reading), and he says one was ok, but one was better. (in gold values).

B

 

[Cubfan64]

Mrs. Oro - you said...

I don't think Clay Worst needed Reed to get the LDM bug - that's actually funny He'd done research at least 2 years before he had personal contact with Reed.

I re-read my post and I think I see how you may have thought that was my implication, but it wasn't. I know Clay was involved from an earlier point than that - when I said "whet their appetites," I meant something more along the lines of implying that he had new secret information that would attract Clay's interest.

I'm going to have a tough time getting the exact quote from Clay, but I'm sure it's on one of Greg's tapes from the Rendezvous that Clay attended. We were sitting around talking with Clay about Reed and he told a bunch of stories along the lines of what you've read in the Journal article, and at one point Clay responded to someone's question as to whether he thought Reed really had been to the mine, or knew something special. I can't quote him without hearing it again, but I do recall that he looked thoughtful for a moment and said that after taking him out there and looking around, he came away doubting if Reed really knew anything of importance, BUT there was one thing that Clay thought Reed couldn't have known anything about unless he had actually been there - I just don't recall what it was. It will take a ton of listening to Greg's tapes to find the exact quote and that ain't gonna happen anytime soon that's for sure, but I remember it happening.

 

[Cubfan64]

Joe, you said...

I don't see how anyone's information could be as good as Ely's.

I agree totally with you that Jim Bark and Sims Ely's information should be at or near the top of the list as far as quality of information considering their access to some of the primary sources. I've never questioned that at all.

What I HAVE questioned and continue to question is HOW GOOD OF QUALITY that information really is. There are just SO MANY variables involved...

How much editing was done on Sim's Ely's book?
Did the Bark family have some information changed or removed from Ely's book before it was printed?
Did Julia and Rhiney REALLY remember much?
Did Julia and Rhiney REALLY tell Bark and Ely all they remembered?

I think in essence, what most of us have done and continue to do is try to coraborate Bark and Ely's information as much as possible - compare it to documented factual information, check and see if the information they've given jives with what other people at the time said, etc...

It's all a matter of playing the game of trying to decide what information is closest to the TRUTH - not the truth as Bark or Ely or anyone else sees it, but the truth of Waltz and his gold. It's really a neverending journey as there will never be ONE REAL source of information that can be trusted to be 100% accurate - it's a matter of picking and choosing based on the best evidence we each personally put stock in.

It's great to discuss this stuff with people like you all who are so knowledgeable in the area of interest. it's great to weigh things from everyone's perspective and it's easy to see that people are very passionate about the opinions they've formed - each of us comes at this from a different viewpoint, different experiences and different evaluation techniques. It just reminds me of the great paradox that exists in treasure hunting... On the one hand, I firmly believe that if there could be enough cooperation and sharing of information amongst enough knowledgeable people, at least some of these "lost" treasures would indeed be found... On the other hand, treasure hunting is a solitary thing .

 

[cactusjumper]

Good morning Paul,

"How much editing was done on Sim's Ely's book?
Did the Bark family have some information changed or removed from Ely's book before it was printed?
Did Julia and Rhiney REALLY remember much?
Did Julia and Rhiney REALLY tell Bark and Ely all they remembered?"

Those all seem like reasonable questions to me.

What remains is: Who's story should hold as much water as Ely/Bark? For me, I would have to approach the question from another angle, which I have said all along. How far removed from Waltz should you base your own search on?

Many folks go with the Holmes clues, but I have a hard time believing someone who steals from a dead man's poke. Some like Ben's story, but there are too many wild holes in that man's imagination for me.

In the end, I don't see the advantage in not believing Ely/Bark, even if their story is not truthful. They are still the closest path to Jacob Waltz.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Jim Hatt]

In the end, I don't see the advantage in not believing Ely/Bark, even if their story is not truthful. T

Joe

Joe,

In my opinion... There is absolutely no advantage, or valid reason, to not believe Ely’s account of his version of the story!

Nothing in his book has ever been invalidated, like it has in the Holmes Manuscript, the “Fake” Bark Notes, several recent books, and various other publications, that support Dick Holmes’ right to have the gold that was under Waltz’s death bed.

I stand firmly in my belief that Ely’s story is truthful. It may not be complete, as far as him telling everything he knew, but in my opinion it does not contain any dis-information.

I believe... There has been a hidden agenda in this discussion from the very start, which in my opinion was to slander Ely's credibility, and ultimately validate Dick Holmes' right to the gold Waltz left behind. It would have been very easy, to support the validity of the John Reed story, without trying to bring Ely down in the process. Pitting Ely and Reed against each other, was just a way of working towards fulfilling that agenda.

I believe that agenda has failed miserably, and Ely has emerged undamaged by it all!

That's my 2 cents worth!

I also believe this whole discussion, was intended to be an indirect rebuttal to information posted at:

http://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=392 - SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

http://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=398 - THE BARK NOTES on - The Lost Dutchman Mine

http://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=393 - THE HOLMES MANUSCRIPT

Jim Hatt

 

[gollum]

In the end, I don't see the advantage in not believing Ely/Bark, even if their story is not truthful. T

Joe

Joe,

In my opinion... There is absolutely no advantage, or valid reason, to not believe Ely’s account of his version of the story!

Nothing in his book has ever been invalidated, like it has in the Holmes Manuscript, the “Fake” Bark Notes, several recent books, and various other publications, that support Dick Holmes’ right to have the gold that was under Waltz’s death bed.

I stand firmly in my belief that Ely’s story is truthful. It may not be complete, as far as him telling everything he knew, but in my opinion it does not contain any dis-information.

I believe... There has been a hidden agenda in this discussion from the very start, which in my opinion was to slander Ely's credibility, and ultimately validate Dick Holmes' right to the gold Waltz left behind. It would have been very easy, to support the validity of the John Reed story, without trying to bring Ely down in the process. Pitting Ely and Reed against each other, was just a way of working towards fulfilling that agenda.

I believe that agenda has failed miserably, and Ely has emerged undamaged by it all!

That's my 2 cents worth!

I also believe this whole discussion, was intended to be an indirect rebuttal to information posted at:

http://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=392 - SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

http://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=398 - THE BARK NOTES on - The Lost Dutchman Mine

http://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=393 - THE HOLMES MANUSCRIPT

Jim Hatt

Jim,

Are you referring to me? If so, then you couldn't be further from the truth. All I did was say that I think John Reed has been underappreciated in the whole DLM (LOL) story. As soon as I said that, I was jumped on about how dishonest he was.

I never said that anyone should believe Reed over anyone else. I also never said that Bark and Ely were less valuable than anybody else. ALL I SAID was that Reed is someone who is not that well known that I think should be looked at a little closer. What I did say was the EVERY Dutch Hunter that has ever written a book did so with their own best interests in mind. Nobody that I have seen have done so because they were a philanthropist.

The questions Cubfan raised are valid. Like I said, I read and listen to everything every Dutch Hunter has said or written (except Bill Riley, John Kemm, and Blindbowman). I just do so with a grain of salt.I am also not above changing my opinions of a person based on new credible knowledge. When I first read the Reed Letters, my mind went in one direction. When I saw Clay Worst's Article (SMHS), it took me somewhere in another direction. I don't automatically think that just because Reed told a few versions of his story to a few different people, that he is any less trustworthy than anybody else in DLM Lore. HeII, Jacob Waltz did the exact same thing.

Now, maybe AZHiker does have something against Ely. I couldn't say because I don't know the man (not that I know of anyway). Since I haven't done any in depth research into Sims Ely, I stayed completely out of that discussion.

....and as far as Dick Holmes; I don't know whether Waltz gave him that candlebox like he said or whether he stole it. I wasn't there and couldn't say. Were you? THE ONLY THING WE HAVE TO GO BY is Dick Holmes' word. Is his word any more or less credible than Julia Thomas or Rhiney Petrasch? Tom Glover's Book looks pretty solid to me that Julia Roberts was selling tickets to the locals to see Waltz on his death bed. She sold maps to Waltz' Mine after she couldn't find it. Do you think the directions were accurate? I doubt it. Maybe Rhiney was honest in his recollections, I don't know.

ALL DLM Lore is full of half truths and misstatements (both intentional and unintentional). What we see written by a completely honest man may be based on the word of someone less than honest.

and Cubfan, what you are referring to is when Reed told Worst and Aylor that when he was there (La Barge Spring) as a kid, the headbox and trough weren't there (which both Worst and Aylor said was true), and there was no way of knowing something like that unless he was there (or a dang good guesser).

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Jim,

Thank you for your input. In this we are in complete agreement, although I don't really know if there was an "agenda". That being said, there's always a possibility that such a thing is taking place.

Thanks for the links but, having been banned for life from DesertUSA, I won't be able to see what you are talking about. It's refreshing not to be the one you think has an opposing agenda with Jim Hatt.....or vice versa.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Jim Hatt]

Gollum Wrote: "HeII, Jacob Waltz did the exact same thing."

Did he Mike?

It only appears that he told many different stories, if we accept everything that has been written by authors other than Sims Ely.

In my opinion he only told one story, and that is the one that Ely repeated in his book.

Joe,

I have no problem supporting your opinion, when I think you are correct. Sorry you can't get there to read the links. Maybe someone can copy them and fwd them to you in email, or you can get a copy of them from Greg Davis' printouts.

P.S. You would never convince me, that you do not have access to every post made on DUSA, every day via one means or another.

Jim

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

"I don't automatically think that just because Reed told a few versions of his story to a few different people, that he is any less trustworthy than anybody else in DLM Lore. HeII, Jacob Waltz did the exact same thing."

Maybe he did, and maybe he didn't. Lot of claims after he was laid to rest.

"Is his word any more or less credible than Julia Thomas or Rhiney Petrasch? Tom Glover's Book looks pretty solid to me that Julia Roberts was selling tickets to the locals to see Waltz on his death bed."

We have pretty well shown that the stories you are referring to are false. The source is more than questionable, and I have my doubts that Dr. Glover will include the story in any future editions.....or new books.

There is no doubt that Julia and Rhiney were with Waltz. There is doubt with every other person, including Dick Holmes and Roberts. I don't believe either man was anywhere near Waltz.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Jim,

"Sorry you can't get there to read the links. Maybe someone can copy them and fwd them to you in email, or you can get a copy of them from Greg Davis' printouts."

I have many friends who would copy and forward them to me, but have no real interest in what goes on over there any more. The conversations are way to stunted for me.

The only reason I would visit the site, is because a friend asked me to do so. I seldom say no to friends, especially close friends as opposed to friendly acquaintances. There is a huge difference.

"P.S. You would never convince me, that you do not have access to every post made on DUSA, every day via one means or another."

I'm sure I could have such access, but have no desire to do it.

Take care,

Joe