Lost Dutchman Mine vs. Hidden Caches

[mrs.oroblanco]

Its not a transcription, guys - they are photocopies that I have.

Did you know he even talked to Sims Ely?

B

 

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[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,

What difference would it make, concerning John Reed's opinion of "anything" you might get from Bark and/or Ely, in 1950, when Sims Ely's book was not even published for three more years? Precognition of what Ely would eventually write? Ely was not a young man even in 1950 either of course, but this 'warning' is curious. Reed falls into a familiar category, those who claimed to have found the mine, but.....
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Ah, yes, Reed - Why should he be an important part of the Waltz story?

Well, we can start with his bragging of robbing the Dutchman.
We can continue with his claim that he ran the Dutchman off his mine.
We can continue with the fact that he looked for 20 years and didn't find it again (?)
He claimed his father knew and worked the mine long before the Dutchman even heard about it.

Let's continue with the fact that he wrote many, many letters - some to Ruth, with some specific directions to this mine (the one he couldn't find himself), and asked Ruth not to make it public.

He wrote to Mrs. Barkley. - oh, and in both letters, he said it was doubtful if he could find it again, because he was just a boy.

Most all of his letters and information was a rambling account of hills and slopes - and, the story also changed. He also, obviously, was not a good writer or speller - so why is it, his accounts should be looked at above and beyond Sims Ely?

If I had to choose between the two (and I have), Ely comes out ahead, every time.

B

REALLY? Not a good writer or speller? Here is a copy of a page of one letter to Erwin Ruth. Excellent writing and spelling. Also, he tells the story of his father robbing Walz. Not him.

See Beth, John Reed was born in 1876. Waltz died in 1891, but never went back to his mine after about 1884. That would have made Reed 8 or 9 years old. Do you REALLY think he chased Waltz away from anything? Maybe you should get those old letters out.

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

Hola amigos,

What difference would it make, concerning John Reed's opinion of "anything" you might get from Bark and/or Ely, in 1950, when Sims Ely's book was not even published for three more years? Precognition of what Ely would eventually write? Ely was not a young man even in 1950 either of course, but this 'warning' is curious. Reed falls into a familiar category, those who claimed to have found the mine, but.....
Oroblanco

Roy,

TSK TSK TSK! Reading something in my post that isn't there! Please show me where I said the Ely visited him in 1950? He stated that Ely had passed through a few times. Could have been in the 1930s or 1940s. He doesn't say.

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

Beth,

You are correct when you say that he wrote many letters. I believe that I have copies of all the letters he wrote to Erwin Ruth, Clay Worst, and a couple more.

I also have a copy of the note in Adolph Ruth's Checkbook transcribed and signed by Erwin Ruth.

Best-Mike

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

So, you think I have transcripts - does this look like a transcript to you?

Beth

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,

What difference would it make, concerning John Reed's opinion of "anything" you might get from Bark and/or Ely, in 1950, when Sims Ely's book was not even published for three more years? Precognition of what Ely would eventually write? Ely was not a young man even in 1950 either of course, but this 'warning' is curious. Reed falls into a familiar category, those who claimed to have found the mine, but.....
Oroblanco

Roy,

TSK TSK TSK! Reading something in my post that isn't there! Please show me where I said the Ely visited him in 1950? He stated that Ely had passed through a few times. Could have been in the 1930s or 1940s. He doesn't say.

Best-Mike

Who is reading something that isn't there? Could it be you? Where did I say anything about Ely visiting Reed in 1950? Your extract letter posted above is DATED 1950, and includes that "warning" about info from Ely and Bark. So Reed wrote this warning in 1950, three years before Ely published his book.
Roy

 

[Oroblanco]

PS - Mike - in that very letter you posted, Reed is telling of an incident in which he was present as a boy, while his father robbed Waltz, or as he spells it 'Walz'. Not a memory error, unless it was Reed's.
Roy

 

[gollum]

So, you think I have transcripts - does this look like a transcript to you?

Beth

You're the one who said he was a bad writer and couldn't spell! Anyone who had seen his writing would know that not only did he have excellent penmanship, but he had no spelling problems either.

I think it is wonderful you have copies. If they say something different than the letters I have that he wrote to Erwin Ruth, please post the quote or copy.

Best-Mike

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Mike,

If you think the word "drunker" should be spelled "dunkener", then, ok, his spelling and enunciation was wonderful. (a statement about his father being drunkener than ever before".

So, please explain why the memories of an 11 year old boy should surpass Sims Ely?

B

 

[gollum]

Roy, Maybe you should read Beth's post a littlle closer:

Well, we can start with his bragging of robbing the Dutchman.

A simple read of my posted letter shows that in one case his father told him about robbing Walz and another case of his dad robbing Walz a second time when he witnessed it. HE NEVER ROBBED WALZ!

We can continue with his claim that he ran the Dutchman off his mine.

It's not on that page, but Reed said that he knew he was no match for the Dutchman so he left.

He claimed his father knew and worked the mine long before the Dutchman even heard about it.

On another page he stated to Ruth that his father knew about the mine from a Mexican but never worked it. Just knew what canyon it was in.

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Man, Mike how are you getting that from that letter?

Quote

"WE went several days after leaving the river & finally got into the hills & came to the mine. My father and Walz had a long hot altercation & finally Walz went away, first handing over what gold he had."

Maybe you ought to re-read the letters amigo, Reed was including himself as present at a robbery and at the mine 3 times.

Roy

 

[gollum]

Mike,

If you think the word "drunker" should be spelled "dunkener", then, ok, his spelling and enunciation was wonderful. (a statement about his father being drunkener than ever before".

So, please explain why the memories of an 11 year old boy should surpass Sims Ely?

B

Beth,

Where in God's name do you see "drunkener" in the letter I posted? I see the word "drunk". Maybe that is in one of your letters?

Mike

 

[gollum]

Man, Mike how are you getting that from that letter?

Quote

"WE went several days after leaving the river & finally got into the hills & came to the mine. My father and Walz had a long hot altercation & finally Walz went away, first handing over what gold he had."

Maybe you ought to re-read the letters amigo, Reed was including himself as present at a robbery and at the mine 3 times.

Roy

Actually Roy,

If you read the page again, you will see that it references TWO robberies. One where he was there (1881) and one that his dad told him about (1879) ..................for the second time.

Are you REALLY stating that he was claiming to have robbed Waltz at the age of 5 or 6? HAHAHA PUH-LEEEEEEEZE! Read Beth's post again Roy.

Well, we can start with his bragging of robbing the Dutchman.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Azhiker,

"Why did Jim Bark never mention his Lost Dutchman Mine association with Sims Ely ?"

I don't know where you got that idea, but Bark mentions Sims Ely many times in his notes. As I assume you have a copy of the Bark Notes, I will only quote one passage:

"After hearing this story from Weedin, I wrote to Sims Ely, Sr. in Phoenix, who was interested with me in looking for the Lost Dutchman Mine. I told him the story and for him to get busy and get the tracing."

I could give you a dozen other passages, but believe it would be more beneficial for you to read them on your own.

You might want to slow down and write shorter posts. Right now, you are giving us way too many targets of opportunity to shoot down. It's not that we have anything personal against you, we don't even know you.......do we?

Being one of the people involved in the search for those letters, peripherally, I have had a bit more time to go over them than most people. Believe I know the gist of John Reed's story. That is especially true as it relates to his involvement with Clay Worst. Beyond the copies of the original letters I, of course, have Clay's article about Reed.

I believe Clay, at some point, realized that John's story was.....questionable.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Mike,

It may be spelled correctly in your transcripts, but, in the actual hand-written letter, it is spelled "drunkener". (its in the hand-written penciled letter that he sent to Erwin Ruth on February 23, 1932.

B

 

[gollum]

Mike,

It may be spelled correctly in your transcripts, but, in the actual hand-written letter, it is spelled "drunkener". (its in the hand-written penciled letter that he sent to Erwin Ruth on February 23, 1932.

B

Actually (again),

THAT is a copy of the ACTUAL letter.

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

Now we have a whole new mystery! Why did Reed write the same story to Erwin in 1932 AND 1950?

Mike

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

But - its on the wrong page, Mike.

If you have all of the letters, then look at page 6, quite aways down on the page, left side of the paper, you will find it. Here, I will help you.

Also, you will note the date of the letter - and, if you wish, the envelope it was mailed in.

 

[Oroblanco]

Mike, not sure how you are reading her statement that way,

Well, we can start with his bragging of robbing the Dutchman.

What I get is very much the same as what I get from his letters, that John Reed was in fact bragging about his experiences, including a robbery his father executed while he stood and watched - you may take that as his being innocent, and certainly a boy of his age would not be much to instill fear for purposes of robbing. Consider the age of Reed, according to himself - at his last visit to the mine, he was 11. That means his earlier visits were at even younger ages. The Apaches were not rounded up until 1886 - would you take a boy of say, 8, into the Superstitions, with just his father for protection?

You mentioned Ely's seeming to place a lot of reliance on Reed, but note that in the 1950 Reed letter extract you posted, he mentions that Bark seemed to be "disgusted" with him - could it be that their trust in Reed's info had proven ill-placed? Reed himself acknowledged that he probably could not find it again. From the one letter, it sounds as if they took the wagon direct to the mine - though perhaps it had been left elsewhere, it just isn't clear. You know the Supers well enough that the idea of driving a wagon deep into them just isn't very likely.

Good luck and good hunting amigo, this episode has once again pointed up how two people can view the same evidence and arrive at two wholly opposing conclusions. For my money, Ely is the source to trust, before Reed.
Oroblanco