Lost Dutchman Mine vs. Hidden Caches

[mrs.oroblanco]

CJ,



Doesn't sound like the ramblings of a madman to me.

B

 

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[cactusjumper]

Mike,

I have my doubts that Greg would ever give away an original document, such as the Ely letter. As Beth writes, it show that his mind was still good in 1944.

Hope all is well with you.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Azhiker]

cactusjumper,

many apologies to you for any misunderstanding, I was going from memory in my quotes.

It was Sims Ely who portrayed Jim Bark as a, "motherless newsboy". You are correct. Thank you for that correction.

It was Sims Ely's son, Northcutt, who portrayed Jim Bark as a, "penniless orphan", when he wrote in an article submitted to, The Fortnightly Club of Redlands California March 3, 1988. here is that quote: ..... "Jim Bark came to Arizona Territory in 1879, a penniless orphan, ........" I was going off my memory and confused the two.

Northcutt was quoting from his fathers notes and long relationship with Jim Bark.
It seems however, that both Sims and his son were under the impression Jim Bark was a poor orphan when that was certainly not the case and even a casual relationship with Bark would have known the true story. Why the Ely's portrayed Bark this way is curious because both Jim Bark, his sister and his father were prominant and well known throughout Phoenix and Arizona. I have taken your suggestion that I had better rethink and research the Bark/Ely relationship, thank you for the suggestion, but after rethinking and researching, I still have the same conclusion and questions. If you could shed any light on this curiousity I would be grateful as I am not a Lost Dutchman Mine believer, I am also just interested in the history.

Thank you also for the letters you posted, I have both those you posted and the ones gollum posted, thank you also gollum, but I don't believe I ever said Ely was not interested, kept notes. looked for or didn't intended to write a book. And Mrs. oroblanco, I don't believe I ever tried to say Ely was a "madman" in the time period 1941-1944 when that series of letters were written. In fact I never tried to say he was a madman during his stay at the sanitarium. You have taken my words out of context. Schizophrenia is a disease where many people lead productive lives with occasional abnormal episodes, it does not mean the person is a, "madman". I don't quite know why you attempt to portray my words that way ? I think you might have misunderstood me again on that point. My apologies once again to you. While those letters are nice, they don't answer any of the questions I raised and if you intended them as some proof Ely actually wrote a book, or was sane because you thought I was saying he was insane, I don't understand the connection. Any light you could shed on them and that connection would be appreciated.

You mentioned the Chestnut Lodge but not the study done on schizophrenia patients done there in the 40's and 50's which according to my research (Floyd Jenne) (Northcutt Ely) is the reason for Ely being there. He was not committed as insane, or as a "madman" and as I understand it, he was there in the final 2-3 years of his life as a part of that study and received the best of care and treatment that a sanitarium in that time period could give. He was not however, as I understand the situation, able to undertake anything the magnitude of writing a book anytime during his stay there.

I thank you for your comments and suggestions but other than take most of what I have said out of context and posted letters that aren't proof of the actual writing of a book, or of Ely's health during the time period when he was believed to write the book (1950-1953), I am still left with my original questions. If you could shed any light on those questions I would appreciate it greatly. Thank you once again for your reply, suggestions and interest.

 

[cactusjumper]

Azhiker,

"Northcutt was quoting from his fathers notes and long relationship with Jim Bark. It seems however, that both Sims and his son were under the impression Jim Bark was a poor orphan when that was certainly not the case and even a casual relationship with Bark would have known the true story."

I appreciate your information in this, but you will forgive me if I take Ely Sims' written statements over your "seems"......belief. I can't vouch for Northcutt using his father's notes, but doubt that is the case, given Sims' written statements about Jim Bark.

You are barking, pardon the pun, up the wrong tree trying to maintain that Sims Ely and Jim Bark weren't the closest of friends over the fifty odd years that they knew each other. It's probably not a good idea to try and rewrite that well known history/friendship.

It's always best to stick to the facts, rather than trying to imagine what might have been.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Azhiker]

cactusjumper,

Quote: "It's always best to stick to the facts, rather than trying to imagine what might have been. "

I raised several valid questions and supplied as much background, facts and source as possible. I did indeed post some facts. Instead of addressing the valid questions you give a one liner that I'm not sticking to facts and trying to imagine what might have been.

I don't know how to respond to someone who's stance is to simply dismiss someone with valid questions this way.

I guess this is where you claim you are right and I'm supposed to go away or at least stop asking questions.

Given your reply, there doesn't seem to be any reason or point to continue any meaningful discussion. I guess a one liner dismissal is what passes for discussion. I apologize for any inconvenience and interruption this may have caused and will let everyone get back to your conversations.

 

[cactusjumper]

Azhiker,

You can, of course, do as you wish but don't imagine I am trying to run you out of this conversation.
_______________________
"Azhiker,

You have obviously done your homework here, and are miles ahead of me on the subject. To be honest, it's been a long time since I looked into my research on Sims Ely. Despite that, much of what you wrote is unknown to me, bad memory or not.

I have taken your advice and asked Dr. Glover. I could call him, but I would never be able to remember all that he would say.

I have always been a fan of Ely, and hope you keep posting everything you can on the man. Not looking for the LDM, just the history.

Thanks for your reply,

Joe"
___________________________

"Northcutt was quoting from his fathers notes" is an assumption on your part. It does, however, conform to your belief that Ely did not know Jim Bark very well at all.

I have tried to find Northcutt's speach, which used to be on the Internet. It may be I am looking in all the wrong places, but I have a hard copy somewhere.

Many people make many claims on these forums, and a prudent person will always check the sources and confirm the "facts" for himself.

If you don't care for others doubting your facts, it is best that you confine your statements for family gatherings around the kitchen table. I expect everything I write to be subject to reasonable doubt.

Don't take what I say so personally. Proove what you write with good sources or documents and you will find that I, for one, am highly appreciative.

Your statements will cause me to revisit my own research, and that's as it should be.

Thank you,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

AZhiker,

I'm getting the impression that you think we are all ganging up on you. I think that the one statement that you made is the crux of our reactions to your post. You said: I don't think anyone can deny Sims Ely would have had a hard time writing a book in 1953. He had been in the sanitarium for almost two years and declining rapidly, this direct from his family and I believe Tom Glover can verify that through his association with Ely's son. .

We have been simply trying to explain why we think that Ely wouldn't have had a hard time writing his book. He was in his right mind, and not declining rapidly.

I don't think that means anyone wants you to "go away and stop asking questions". Mostly, what it IS, is that many here have spent alot of time researching, and maybe we are a little "attached" to our results.

Just because we all have an opinion, probably just means that we have also dug into the same types of things, and that just means - in this case - that we do not believe that Ely was in any way declining rapidly, and Ely planned on writing his book many years before it was published (one doesn't usually write a book in a short time), and that Ely had some very good associations on the subject.

I think, like most folks, we (we meaning people who are researching things) we try to get as close t0 the subject as possible and once an author's
validity is secure, the questions come, no longer about the author, but about the things that were written by the author. (and Ely does have alot of information). To be sure, that doesn't mean that every single thing is correct, or that every conclusion is perfect, it just means that, at our point in "life", we probably all have checked out the Storms and the Glovers and the Mitchells and the Elys and all the other writers backgrounds, and what has remained is the actual contents of their research. It's not personal. Two people can look at the exact same thing and come to two entirely different conclusions.

B

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Here is Ely's obit.

 

[Azhiker]

mrs. oroblanco,

Thank you for posting the death notice of Sims Ely. It is however, not the families obituary and was written by a staff reporter in Washington D.C. from information gathered by unknown sources, not the Ely family. The obituary is well known to me and I also have a copy.
I have the official copy of the Ely obituary written and submitted by the Ely family and it mentions nothing about Sims writing either The Lost Dutchman Mine, or further remembrances of the like. So I don't know where that leaves one. If you want to use a death notice written by an unknown press reporter from unknown sources as proof of Sims Ely clear mental state at his deathbed, I surely would not try to stop you. You should think that those reporters usually got their information from files kept on the individual from any source and were paid by the word. This death notice came out the same day of Ely's death, hurridly thrown together to get it out to other newspapers, the Ely family's obituary appeared the next day.

The Washington D.C. death notice however, is just one more curiousity that does not fit with other facts of Sims Elys last years or even the families submitted obituary.

Nor does it answer the questions of why didn't the Ely family know Jim Bark was not an orphan and in poverty ? Surely Northcutt Ely was knowledgeable of that fact as he personally was supposed to know Jim Bark as the family, not just Sims, was, "close", with Bark. Why did Northcutt say Bark was a penniless orphan and his father portray him as a motherless pauper ?
Why did Sims Ely not know the correct names of Jacob Waltz, Julia Thomas and others he was acquainted with ? Why did he confuse Helena Petrasch with Julia Thomas ? The inconsistencies in his book are not small mistakes given his association with Bark and Waltz, Thomas, Petrasch and others.
Why did Jim Bark never mention his Lost Dutchman Mine association with Sims Ely ?
Why did Ely say Julia was destitute at the time of her death and needed a handout when in fact she was doing as well as she ever had in her life at the time of her death and left a sizable estate for the time ?

These are all valid questions and I'm not saying I know any of the answers but just am simply asking the questions.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

The obituary was only meant to discuss some of the things that Ely had done in his life. I really don't think it matters who wrote it, just that some of the facts of his life were in there. Bottom line is, Sims Ely had done something with his life, in some very important ways.

While Ely is definitely worth discussing - why would his family be? I guess I'm a little confused about that.

As far as I can tell, any mistake made about Bark was made by Ely's son - not Sims Ely. (and written way after the fact), and also said that Bark became quite an important person at the ranch. Is that not what you are referring to? I doubt that Northrup Ely knew he'd made a blunder - because it was a blunder. Frankly, I couldn't tell you accurately all about MY father's friends - how about you?

As far as Julia - Julia was reduced to selling made-up maps (all different) that she sold to tourists for a bit of cash. She WAS destitute. She married a 3 months after Waltz died, and she ended up drinking herself to death.

While you are researching these questions - you might also want to ask this important question: Why is it that almost every single book written about the Lost Dutchman mine, after 1953 - refer to Sims Ely's information and/or book?


Beth

 

[gollum]

Concerning the accuracy of Sims Ely's theories on the LDM. All this talk caused me to have to search my files and find a certain letter I hadn't looked at in a while. I just found it!

Here is an excerpt of a letter from John Reed to Clay Worst of 10 June 1950:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

June 10/50
Mr. Worst,
Dear Sir,
I received your telegram & both letters & wish to thank you for writing me.

I have read over the letters several times & got the gist of them. Do not take any notice of anything Bark or Ely said or any description they may have got.
Mr Ely passed through here I think 3 times, he notified me to meet him each time, which I did. He seemed very pleasant & friendly & wanted as exact a description of the mine as I could write on paper. I wrote out & mailed it to him & he turned it over to his uncle
there was never any mention made of what I was to get, if anything.
Someway I have an idea that this description is somewhat inaccurate, if they ever find the mine from it they'll be luckier than I think they are.
Mr Bark dropped in a couple of times& seemed kind of disgusted. He isn't as pleasant as his nephew, & I presume he had an hard boiled side, though he tried to keep it out of sight.
He wanted me to come out and look things over. Said he would furnish 6 or 8 mountain men to go with me & look out for me, see I got protection.
Personally I don't think Id have lived very long after we found the place if we did.
These are just my own ideas.
I agree with you about the name. I have no intention of being "John Reed" when I arrive, & I certainly won't be interested in mines.
It is now at least 60 years since I was there & I expect things have changed some & I may have trouble finding it, but am going to try.
I don't have any associates as I have very rarely mentioned the matter to anyone, people here are not interested in gold mines, though many of them will fall for a fake oil well. But there are producing wells in Illinois.
Should you come by St Louis, while I am here, will be glad to see either of you.
In 1944 I think it was a man from Salt Lake was here wanted information.
But it did not amount to anything.

Sincerely
J Reed (See if you get this, if you don't
they can't make much of it)
More next time.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Still place a lot of faith in Sims Ely? John Reed is not that famous a figure in LDM lore as he should be. His description of the location of a hidden Spanish/Mexican Mine he saw in the late 1800s was what Bark and Ely based their hunts on (if I read the letter correctly).

Joe,

I think Clay Worst would be able to shed a little more light on the subject.

Best-Mike

 

[Azhiker]

mrs.oroblanco
cactusjumper
gollum

All points made are well taken by myself and I thank you all for your input, consideration and patience.

 

[cactusjumper]

Azhiker,

There seems to be a pattern developing here. You are given evidence showing Sims Ely's mental condition shortly before his death, and you immediately dismiss it, offering no refuting evidence. What you do offer is what other people would suggest if we asked them.

Beth supplies the obituary, written the day Ely dies, and you leap to the conclusion that the information came from the newspaper's files on the man, rather than from the family. You ignore the fact that much of the information could only have come from family, and they couldn't surf the net in those days.

You have also ignored this: "At his death, he was writing another story of his experiences in the early days of the Far West." Is it your opinion that this comment was made up by the reporter?

Don't know how they handle these things where you come from, but all of the obituaries I am aware of, got their information from the Mortuary, and they get it from the family or friends. You have not shown a single piece of evidence to support your contention that Sims did not know Jim Bark very well.......at all.

In your characterization of the sanitarium, you focus only on their work with Schizophrenia and ignore the work they did with patients who were suffering with nervous disorders, or diseases of the nervous system. In those days, that would include Dementia and Alzheimer disease. I am very familiar with both, and can assure you that he was not in the advance stages of either when he wrote this inscription in March of 1954:

"Still place a lot of faith in Sims Ely? John Reed is not that famous a figure in LDM lore as he should be. His description of the location of a hidden Spanish/Mexican Mine he saw in the late 1800s was what Bark and Ely based their hunts on (if I read the letter correctly)."

You have to read John Reed's letter in the context of what was taking place right after Adolph Ruth was killed. And you are not correct in assuming that Ely and Bark based their search on that letter.
If there was anything important in it, Clay Worst would never have shared it......with anyone.

You are keeping things hopping, keep up the excellent work.

Do you know Clay Worst personally?

Thanks,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Ah, yes, Reed - Why should he be an important part of the Waltz story?

Well, we can start with his bragging of robbing the Dutchman.
We can continue with his claim that he ran the Dutchman off his mine.
We can continue with the fact that he looked for 20 years and didn't find it again (?)
He claimed his father knew and worked the mine long before the Dutchman even heard about it.

Let's continue with the fact that he wrote many, many letters - some to Ruth, with some specific directions to this mine (the one he couldn't find himself), and asked Ruth not to make it public.

He wrote to Mrs. Barkley. - oh, and in both letters, he said it was doubtful if he could find it again, because he was just a boy.

Most all of his letters and information was a rambling account of hills and slopes - and, the story also changed. He also, obviously, was not a good writer or speller - so why is it, his accounts should be looked at above and beyond Sims Ely?

If I had to choose between the two (and I have), Ely comes out ahead, every time.

B

 

[gollum]

Now Beth,

Just where did you get that information on Reed?

Best-Mike

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Mike,

From reading his own letters that he wrote to Ruth and Barkley and others, in 1932 and later. He kept up the correspondence for quite awhile.
From 1932 until 1934, at least.

Beth

 

[cactusjumper]

Beth,

You have confused what Reed's father did, with John Reed. How long ago did you read those letters?

Ely is the obvious choice.

Joe

 

[gollum]

Beth,

My question again.....WHERE did you read them? Were they from Greg Davis' transcription posted on the old LDM Forum?

I ask because it (Greg forgive me) has some transcription errors (letters left out, missing words, etc). Nothing that changes the nature of the conversation.

...............or do you have copies of the originals?

Best-Mike

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

CJ and Mike,

No, not from the LDM forum.

And, I don't think I am confusing the facts. The letters I have are from John Reed, to others, and he says, in his own handwriting, that, when he was a boy, he went there with his father on more than one occassion.

I have them in my collection, and have looked at it quite recently.

B

 

[gollum]

Hey Joe,

It seems that Erwin Ruth and Clay Worst both put a LOT of stock in John Reed. Right after he got them, Greg D. let myself and a good friend make copies of all the Erwin Ruth Letters.

You are correct. It must have been a while since Beth read the transcription. In the encounter with "Walz", Reed said that he was no match for him and left. He also said that his father had robbed Waltz of one batch of gold and moved them to New Mexico.

Best-Mike