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Lost Dutchman Mine vs. Hidden Caches

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Cubfan wrote
When you really think about it, though they are as close as one can get to the original stories, there are potentially serious issues even with things like Sims Ely's book and the Bark Notes are there not? How accurate is Ely's book considering there are some definite factual historical errors?
Click to expand...

You have hit on the issue I was raising with Bark's notes, and by extension Ely's book. The Bark's notes we can lay hands on, do not agree 100% with Ely's book version of the same things, as in the cache issue. The original Bark's notes are not available, and we have stories that what got passed on has been edited. Perhaps the editing was harmless and with net zero effect, but how can we ever know? I think Ely's book is the closest we can get to Waltz, along with Bicknell's articles, but unfortunately these fellows also failed to locate the LDM.

Just my opinion but I think all sources are faulted in some way, whether innocently or deliberate - for even with so many books, articles even movies done on the LDM, it remains lost. Clearly there is some major flaw in the information, which could be the fault of Julia or Reiney not remembering a key detail or getting it wrong, innocently or deliberately. When the LDM is finally found (of course many say it is already) then it will be possible to do some comparisons for all of the various clues.
Oroblanco
 

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Paul,

"I have no idea if he ever really set out with Julia and Rhiney and returned when he got sick, or if they never made the trip at all due to his failing health."

Most of the answers to your questions and doubts can be found in Ely's book, or the Bark Notes. Julia and Rhiney never made a trip to or even towards the Superstitions.........With Waltz.

If you reread the Waltz portion of Ely's book, you can judge the condition of his mind when he penned it. There is nothing anywhere in the book that even hints at a man with diminished mental abilities. IMHO, anything that was left out or changed from the factual, was done on purpose and likely at the direction of Bark's family.

The signed edition, I was gifted, shows a shaky hand, which should be expected, but the inscription is done with clarity and well formed purpose. Knowing the history of the hospital where his family placed him, I am astonished at his ability to complete such a wonderful book, or even have enough focus to inscribe those books that he did, with his "best wishes".

It serves no useful purpose to dismiss his writing as anything less than truthful. If you can't accept a man like Sims Ely's word, who's word can you take over him? Sure he made some errors, but considering the battle he had to wage just to put it all on paper, it's a truth I accepted a long time ago.

Take care,

Joe
 

I would have to agree - in all the books I have read, Sims Ely has, what I consider to be, the best information so far.

B
 

Roy,

"The original Bark's notes are not available, and we have stories that what got passed on has been edited."

I have it on excellent authority, that the original notes have been seen by at least one person, who is still living. In addition, the other person who saw those notes took notes of his own. He has since passed away. Wonder who ended up with his collection? Anyone have some informed guesses?

Take care,

Joe
 

Good morning my friends: Perhaps I am mistaken, but it apears to me that you are wrangling over non essentials details. The man existed, he had Gold, where did it come from?

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

cactusjumper said:
.... I have it on excellent authority, that the original notes have been seen by at least one person, who is still living. In addition, the other person who saw those notes took notes of his own. He has since passed away. Wonder who ended up with his collection? Anyone have some informed guesses?....
Click to expand...

I have to agree with Real de T. When we hitch our wagons to unverifiable and probably jimmied rumors, all we do is travel in circles.
 

Morning Jose - yes - and no.

For the folks who are trying to follow the tale and form some ideas of their own, they are basing it, of course, on those people who have written about the man and the events (no doubt about his existence).

When you read accounts from different sources - one might be more likely to follow the "trail" of someone who's sources are more accurate than someone elses. I think that is what we are talking about.

Who had the story right - who was closest to the original sources, and who was filling in incorrect blanks.

Obviously, nobody had all the answers, or else we wouldn't we talking about lost mines and lost caches. However, I think the discussion pertains who was most accurate on the smaller details - because, that might follow that that is the person who's clues and information might give you the best conclusions.

At least, that's my take on all the things I've read. When you were searching for Tayopa, you collected, I'm assuming, the best evidence you could find - which would also be the information that allowed you to put all the pieces together and find Tayopa yourself. I think that is really the type of thing we are talking about. Who really had more answers that make sense.

B
 

Maybe someone here might be able to throw more light on the subject because I am not certain of the specifics but wasn't Sims Ely specifically placed in a Maryland sanitarium as part of a study done with schizophrenia psychotherapy due to his life long battle with that disease ? Ely reportedly lived in a narcissistic world of his own and was a borderline autistic delusional. Not to be belitteling or putting the man down but that was , I believe, a clinical analysis done of him. I do not believe he just was placed there because his family couldn't care for him. I may be wrong but a study done in the 1940's and 1950's on schizophrenia, published by the Maryland sanitarium included his treatment there.

This would fit with accounts of Ely in earlier life. Case in point his term as director of Boulder City while Hoover dam was being built. Many there called Ely a dictator and inflexible and entirely obsessed with control of the town and the people who lived there. His time in Phoenix as head of the Arizona Republic also painted Ely in that same light. Ely was said to wander outside his home in Phoenix in nightclothes ordering people to do or not do certain things. Similar accounts appear in interviews with persons who knew him during his time as city director of Boulder City, Nevada. Somewhere there is a bio of Ely with statements by numerous persons who knew Ely during his life and while at Boulder City, almost all accounts portray Ely in a similar light.

Ely's relationship with Jim Bark also was a mystery. While the two were acquaintences, their time together in search of the Lost Dutchman Mine was a blank to both of their families. Do the Bark Notes even mention Sims Ely ? I don't believe they do. From reading the book Ely wrote, if in fact he himself wrote it, it appears neither Ely nor Bark for that matter, ever spoke personally with Waltz, Julia or Rhiney Petrasch and their entire information about them was second hand. Rumors have persisted for years that someone else actually wrote Ely's book, or wrote it for him, and his name and Bark's name were used to sell the work. I do not know nor do I have an opinion if Ely actually wrote the book or not. So many strange things were going on at the end of Ely's life, a strange time for him to have written a book considering his age (92) and his physical and mental condition at the time. Maybe someone here has some answers or can throw some more light on the matter.
 

Azhiker,

Wow!!! Haven't seen a post like that since someone accused Jacob Waltz of being a cross-dresser. Can you supply a source for any of the more sensational
parts of your post?

The sanitarium part is well known. I spent a lot of time looking into Ely's history, and some of the criticism is well deserved.

Many people who reach the age of 92 can be somewhat......different. Some get that way much earlier in their life. IMHO, there is little doubt that most of your information about Bark is incorrect.

There are many newspaper accounts where the two men and their wives are shown to be connected and friends.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo
 

cactusjumper

Most of my post is a question not a statement. I'm not trying to belittle Sims Ely. I don't think anyone can deny Sims Ely would have had a hard time writing a book in 1953. He had been in the sanitarium for almost two years and declining rapidly, this direct from his family and I believe Tom Glover can verify that through his association with Ely's son. Since you have looked into his history and his time at the sanatarium you already know this. I'm not saying Ely and Bark weren't acquaintences. What I asked was how well they actually knew each other.

Case in point, Both Sims Ely and his son Northcutt portray Jim Bark as a pennyless orphan who came to Phoenix. The opposite was true and anyone even remotely acquainted with Bark would have known this. Bark came to Arizona fairly wealthy with his lifelong friend Frank Criswell and Criswell's family. I believe they arrived in Arizona from Kansas. Along with Bark came his father Frederick who was a close friend of Criswell's father. The Barks and Criswells were lifelong friends and when Barks father died he was buried in the Criswell family plot in Phoenix. This is well known and again can be verified by Tom Glover. My question is how could the Ely's make this error of thinking Bark was a pennyless orphan, a direct quote from Ely and Ely's son in his biography of his father.

Bark, to my knowledege, never mentions Ely or his experiences with Ely in his notes. John Spangler, Jim Barks nephew knew of Ely's relationship with Bark only through Ely's book. Again, this can be verified through Tom Glover and his association with both Ely's son and Bark's nephew. It just raises a lot of questions of who wrote Ely's book, was it Sim's or someone else, or a combination ?

Somewhere there is a written biography of Sims Ely I read and in it are statements by numerous persons who knew Ely both in Boulder City and Phoenix. A film documentary of Hoover dam went deep into the life of sims Ely and touched on his sometimes less than stable mental state and his final years.
My question is, did Ely write this book before he became too ill and was confined, maybe didn't finish it and someone else finished it for him, or did someone write it from his notes ? Sims Ely writing a book between 1950 and 1953 just didn't seem to be a possibility.
 

Azhiker,

You have obviously done your homework here, and are miles ahead of me on the subject. To be honest, it's been a long time since I looked into my research on Sims Ely. Despite that, much of what you wrote is unknown to me, bad memory or not. :dontknow:

I have taken your advice and asked Dr. Glover. I could call him, but I would never be able to remember all that he would say.

I have always been a fan of Ely, and hope you keep posting everything you can on the man. Not looking for the LDM, just the history. :read2:

Thanks for your reply,

Joe
 

Morning Jose - yes - and no.

For the folks who are trying to follow the tale and form some ideas of their own, they are basing it, of course, on those people who have written about the man and the events (no doubt about his existence).

When you read accounts from different sources - one might be more likely to follow the "trail" of someone who's sources are more accurate than someone elses. I think that is what we are talking about.

Who had the story right - who was closest to the original sources, and who was filling in incorrect blanks.

Obviously, nobody had all the answers, or else we wouldn't we talking about lost mines and lost caches. However, I think the discussion pertains who was most accurate on the smaller details - because, that might follow that that is the person who's clues and information might give you the best conclusions.

At least, that's my take on all the things I've read. When you were searching for Tayopa, you collected, I'm assuming, the best evidence you could find - which would also be the information that allowed you to put all the pieces together and find Tayopa yourself. I think that is really the type of thing we are talking about. Who really had more answers that make sense.
Click to expand...

That's exactly my take on the discussion too Mrs. Oro - Thanks for saying it clearer than I can :)
 

Hola amigos,

In defense of Sims Ely, I strongly suspect that in writing his book on the LDM, he was working with notes at hand, perhaps even the original Bark Notes, or a similar set of his own, compiled notes. As an experienced Phoenix newsman, Ely (like his fellow Dutch-hunter Tom Weedin) would almost certainly have kept notes all along the way. No newspaper man would trust to memory alone, whether reporting on a simple social gathering or a hunt for a lost treasure. The detail in the book certainly suggests Ely had specific notes at hand. I would be very surprised if it were proven that Ely never kept notes nor used any in writing the book.

Oroblanco
 

You know - it may be true - and again, it may not be, but definitely interesting information!

The only thing that I would say is that, in those years - up to and including the years that someone like CJ and I would call our teen years, the world of sanitariums and psychiatry were, at best - dismal. Thousands of people were "locked up", given shock treatments - and, a good part of the time, if you weren't mentally perfect when you went in, you certainly were usually worse by the time you left.

Even in the 60's (1960's), places that treated the mentally unstable were, at best, sub-par. Many of the institutions of those years were catch basins for EVERYTHING. Drink too much? Off to the sanitarium with you. Change of life? (menopause) - shock treatments and sanitariums.
Really - in 1967, a woman I worked with was locked up for 30 days because, when she had hot flashes, she got splitting headaches that would
really take her off her feet. Docs couldn't find the medical reason (things we do know about today), so they sent her to a psychiatrist, who committed her for 30 days-and then 60 days, and then 90 days. Darned if it didn't happen for a week each month??

Today, there are millions of people who are walking the streets who would have been locked up back then. And, they function just fine. In fact, some of the greatest people in the world were not really what we would call "stable". Einstein was one of them. So was Howard Hughes. Of course, Hughes had money, so we just called him "eccentric". It is a medical fact that, with exceptional IQ's also seems to come social problems.
Autistic children seem to have, on a high average - very high IQ's. One of my sisters-in-law has an extremely high IQ - can write two different things with each hand (the ultimate ambidextrous - some can write the same thing with both hands, some can do math problems with one hand and write an English comp with the other, at the same time - that was her). Her IQ was really really high. (I say was only because she had a massive stroke a few months ago). When she was in her teens - they locked her up for awhile - twice. One of her psychiatrists committed suicide. When they finally just left her alone - she became a 40 year manager of a very well-known chain of stores across the US.

Bottom line is - anything related to mental status back in those years should be suspect. Many of the institutions from those years are long gone, and for a very good reason.

B
 

Here is a photo of Sims Ely, circa 1931

sims-ely-1931.webp
 

Beth,

I would say you have summed up the situation perfectly.

Azhiker,

The following is a letter from Ely, that he put together in November of 1944. In it he is obviously laying the groundwork for "The Lost Dutchman Mine":

ElyLetterPage1.jpg


ElyLetterPage2.jpg


I believe this shows where Ely was in late 1944, as well as the state of his mind. It's easy enough to Google "Chestnut Lodge" and read the good, the bad and the ugly.

Ely first thought of writing his book in 1931.

Take care,

Joe
 

Azhiker,

"Case in point, Both Sims Ely and his son Northcutt portray Jim Bark as a pennyless orphan who came to Phoenix. The opposite was true and anyone even remotely acquainted with Bark would have known this. Bark came to Arizona fairly wealthy with his lifelong friend Frank Criswell and Criswell's family."

I fear you have misquoted Sims Ely here. That is a common occurrence these days, but easily corrected:

"A motherless newsboy on the streets of Philadelphia at the age of eleven, he had had little in the way of formal schooling, but he had corrected the deficiency by industrious reading and varied experience. He had been a railway construction worker in Mexico, New Mexico and Arizona, and he had saved his money, so that when he settled in Phoenix, he had the resources, both personal and financial, to play a forceful part in Territorial affairs. A speculator in ranches, buying and selling-and when in need of capital borrowing freely from a Phoenix bank at the going rate of two per cent a month-he was also a civic leader from the start. He was a member of the Territorial legislature in the upper house and assisted at Washington in pioneering the federal system of forest conservation."
From page 13 of "The Lost Dutchman Mine" by Sims Ely.

There is no mention of him being an "orphan" or "pennyless" when he came to Phoenix.

It seems obvious that most of this information probably came from Jim Bark. You really need to rethink and re-research the Bark/Ely friendship.

Take care,

Joe
 

cactusjumper said:
Beth,

I would say you have summed up the situation perfectly.

Azhiker,

The following is a letter from Ely, that he put together in November of 1944. In it he is obviously laying the groundwork for "The Lost Dutchman Mine":

ElyLetterPage1.jpg


ElyLetterPage2.jpg


I believe this shows where Ely was in late 1944, as well as the state of his mind. It's easy enough to Google "Chestnut Lodge" and read the good, the bad and the ugly.

Ely first thought of writing his book in 1931.

Take care,

Joe
Click to expand...

Hey Joe,

Did you get a set of those from Greg too? :wink:

Mike
 

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