Lost Dutchman Mine vs. Hidden Caches

[mrs.oroblanco]

Does Barry Storm's book have different things in the second or subsequent editions?

I ask this because, we also have the first edition - signed by the author - and in the preface, and I will quote:

"A good part of this account is admittedly pure supposition" (which of course, goes on to say it is supposition done by an experienced people, etc),

but, the quesiton is - are there differences in the other editions - extra information or different suppositions? (I'm not sure I have ever read a different edition). Except Thunder God's Gold (which is a different book - which seems to mostly add the Peralta Stones.

B

 

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[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Maybe......

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Mike,

Maybe......

Take care,

Joe

HAHAHA Quite a definitive answer in itself!

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

You should be careful when you read between the lines. That fine print tends to get more difficult to read as we get older. It will be a long time before Dr. Glover's book looses it's place as #1. It has everything that anyone needs to find the LDM.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Evening CJ: You posted --> It has everything that anyone needs to find the LDM.
***********

YET??

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

As I said, trying to read between the lines doesn't get any easier with age.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Join me for some Mexican Hill coffee Joe? Oro had nothing to do with making it. My Lupita made it.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,



Make it at our place and we will make cactus eggs......as well as coffee.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Mormning Joe, You posted -- we will make cactus eggs......
***********

I didn't know that cactus laid eggs? snicker

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

It's interesting to note that the Bark Notes make no mention of Waltz having hidden a cache of rich gold ore in the Superstitions. On the other hand Ely has that in his book. He wrote "The Lost Dutchman Mine" while in the hospital, where he died, in 1954, at the age of 92. That raises the legitimate question of how accurate his memories were, when they did not conform to the Bark Notes. It's true that he was asked to leave out certain parts of Bark's work by Jim's family, but the caches seem like a clue of minor importance.

I believe Ely was the first to mention the caches in a book. Storm does not include the "cache" story in his first "Trail of the Lost Dutchman" in 1939, and it is not mentioned in any of the subsequent editions, that I know of, including the 1967 soft cover which includes his take on the Stone Maps. He repeats the "perhaps" cache story throughout.

In 1933 John D. Mitchell wrote "Lost Mines of the Great Southwest". On page 125 you will find the chapter on the LDM. That early publication makes no mention of a Waltz cache.

It's amazing how the LDM legend has changed over the years, with new "facts" added every few weeks......it seems. Most of those stories have no basis in fact and originated in the imaginative minds of ordinary people who desperately wanted to inject themselves into the history of the Lost Dutchman Mine.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

It's interesting to note that the Bark Notes make no mention of Waltz having hidden a cache of rich gold ore in the Superstitions. On the other hand Ely has that in his book.

The Bark notes - another mystery! Which set do you accept? Which is the "real" set? <This question for everyone reading this, I would like your opinions>

Thank you in advance,

Cactusjumper also wrote

In 1933 John D. Mitchell wrote "Lost Mines of the Great Southwest". On page 125 you will find the chapter on the LDM. That early publication makes no mention of a Waltz cache.

Mitchell is one of the sources which has the ore vein as rose quartz, but interestingly the copyright for this book was filed by M.F. Rose, which I presume to be Milton F. Rose. The 1953 book "Lost Mines & Buried Treasures along the Old Frontier" by J.D. Mitchell likewise makes no mention of any cache, nor that the ore vein is rose quartz. Are the variations the work of an editor, perhaps?
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I believe all of the versions of the Bark Notes are, basically, the same content. That would be with the exception of the rumored seventh version, said to be the actual collection of the original notes by Bark.
Everything else seems to be close copies of the manuscript he prepaired for publication.

The hand copied version is like the rest, but is missing the last 1/4 of the manuscript. There are some problems with the stories explaining why the last part is missing.

Take care,

Joe

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Actually, Barry Storm, in his first edition "Trail of the Lost Dutchman" didn't talk about "caches", but he did elude to the fact that Walz (spelling it his way) MIGHT have a cache stashed away somewhere for a later time. (of course, Barry Storm made a lot of mistakes - like Waltz buying a place, when he really filed a homestead).


One of the big issues that actually bugs me, is time. The "great" flood that almost washed Waltz away happened in February - 1891 - and Walsh did not die until 8 months later. Something is wrong with that "story telling" of that time period, and we find it pretty much everywhere, in almost everyone's account. So, we know, that there is a discrepancy. (unaccounted for).

B

 

[Cubfan64]

Actually, Barry Storm, in his first edition "Trail of the Lost Dutchman" didn't talk about "caches", but he did elude to the fact that Walz (spelling it his way) MIGHT have a cache stashed away somewhere for a later time. (of course, Barry Storm made a lot of mistakes - like Waltz buying a place, when he really filed a homestead).


One of the big issues that actually bugs me, is time. The "great" flood that almost washed Waltz away happened in February - 1891 - and Walsh did not die until 8 months later. Something is wrong with that "story telling" of that time period, and we find it pretty much everywhere, in almost everyone's account. So, we know, that there is a discrepancy. (unaccounted for).

B

I'm not sure I follow what bugs you about that Mr's Oro. I was always under the impression that the flood that "washed out" Waltz is what left him pretty much homeless as well as sick which over time developed into pnuemonia or some other type of lung problems that caused his death in October. Can you be more specific about which part bothers you?

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Cubfan,

There is a disruption in the time line there. Almost all the "sources" say that there was a flood, they went and rescued him, and brought him to Julia's house. Supposedly, within a few weeks, Waltz died. But, the reality is, the flood was in February, he died in October. So, Waltz was out of his own house for 8 months, and at Julia's a little while? What did he do, what happened, in those 8 months that really are not accounted for?


Is this the time period that (as in some accounts) he tried to take Julia to the mountains? Is this the time period when his gold (under the bed) was stolen? Was this the period of time that he talked to Holmes?

If so, he couldn't have been on his deathbed - at least not yet. There is 8 months unaccounted for - so nobody's story really makes sense completely, until the time period between the time he got flooded out, and the time he died. I cannot help but think that something important happened during those 8 months that nobody acknowledges.

Beth

 

[gollum]

Beth,

Read Tom Glover's Book. He spent the entire eight months in the back room at Julia's Store. Glover's book talks about during the Summer months, when he started to recover somewhat, he tried telling Julia, but those were the Ice Cream Parlor's busiest months and she didn't spend any time with him. Rhiney couldn't really understand his German and was constantly frustrated.

Mike

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Mike,

I have Glover's book - and read it, of course, more than once (you know how those things go), but, if you read the ones we are talking about (Storm), it, like many others, don't allude to that, at all. And Glover also said that there are 3 versions of the events, that don't even agree on how long Waltz was stranded, nor who even went and got him. (and Glover also mentioned Starrar, a cousin - who didn't help, and, as you know, there are also stories that Waltz DID go with Julia, with wagons and Rhiney going by foot (Sims Ely).

Like you, I like to cross-reference things - and it cannot be cross-referenced to anyone else.

I have read most of the "well-known" accounts, but, what I don't get, is why everyone keeps saying he died within a few days/weeks, depending on who's you read.

In some, that activity (trying to tell Julia) happened in a different time, with Jacob saying that he would have to show her, because she would never find it by herself. (Sims Ely), and actually making a trip, and getting sick on the trip.

In Mitchell's 1933 book (it is different in his 1953 book) says something completely different (including having the death year incorrect) and Waltz renting a house, and catching pneumonia rescuing hogs from the Salt River.

I find that information a really big discrepancy. Where was Holmes during these 8 months? And where were the others? Did they just hover for 8 months and then pop on over to steal the gold? If Waltz gave it to him, when, really, did that happen? (my own personal opinion on this is that Waltz gave Holmes a cock-and-bull story, if he gave one at all, intentionally giving him false information, but, that's just my opinion)

Mike, do you have someone else that can cross-reference to Glover? (of course, a fairly reputable one)

Beth

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

First of all, Dr. Glover's account of the circumstances surrounding Waltz's convalescence and death are incorrect. Garry, Larry, Paul and I proved that beyond any doubt. I believe all of that evidence can be found here:

http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine....1&t=1218&Sid=5a54a6950e57a1759efdad1c79d3c641

And here:

http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1239

If you read through all of the varying stories about the LDM, you will find a wide variety of time lines and obvious fabrications. My guess as to why the fabrications and mistakes is the "Hell I Was There" syndrome. Once Waltz died and the stories started circulating everyone said Hell yes I knew the Dutchman.

Each of them started giving their own account, depending on what they had heard from others, or what they could remember. Many of our modern-day authors are taking those questionable stories from trusted sources and repeating them.

To get the most accurate details, as to Waltz facts, you have to go back to the people who were closest to the events. That would be Julia and Rhiney and by extension Bark and Ely. Even old man Petrasch ended up claiming to have been a good friend of Jacob Waltz.

I should think that even casual researchers into the LDM legend would be able to separate the pure fiction from the kinda fiction. Dr. Glover did the most accurate and extensive research of anyone, and yet there are mistakes in his books. He will be the first to admit that, and ask for help in finding and correcting those errors. That's why God made second editions and such.

There is no real mystery in when Waltz got caught in that flood, where he went afterward, or when and how he died. Don't get confused by all the confusion.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Mrs. Oro - thanks for clarifying what bothers you about the events. I wish I knew exactly how and why the stories about Waltz are so varied - the truth is, there's probably a hundred different reasons for all the various stories.

I've found myself over the last year or so trying to paint a picture of Waltz, his life and his gold from strictly a historical perspective. If you do that, you'll quickly discover that there's not really all that many legitimate pieces to the puzzle, but I think without that solid framework (as small as it may be), one finds oneself getting sidetracked down other lines of research too easily.

When you really think about it, though they are as close as one can get to the original stories, there are potentially serious issues even with things like Sims Ely's book and the Bark Notes are there not? How accurate is Ely's book considering there are some definite factual historical errors? What state of mind was Ely in at his advanced age and did he write from memory of events that happened to him many years earlier, or did he use notes? The Bark notes presents another problem in that they were apparently copied from their original source - how accurate was the copy? Could it be possible that the "notes" were manufactured by someone in order to point people away from the REAL information?

I realize one has to eventually make a judgement call on who and what sources to trust, but that judgement call has to be made (in my opinion) based on how accurate the information is when compared to historical & factual information that CAN be discovered.

In my mind, I believe Jacob Waltz was flooded out of his home in Feb. 1891 when it was documented that the area near his home was severely damaged by the Salt River overflow. I don't know when Waltz took ill, whether he got better and then relapsed, etc... but his death occured in October 1891 (8 months later). I believe it's more than likely that Julia put Waltz up in her home as a boarder during that time, and I don't personally believe he "lived" in Julia's store at all during that time. What happened in between the flood and his death remains something we can only guess at based on sources. I have no idea if he ever really set out with Julia and Rhiney and returned when he got sick, or if they never made the trip at all due to his failing health.

As an aside, your mention of Holmes and the gold he claimed he was given by Waltz reminded me of something I wish I could find. I've heard mention that there was a legal dispute between Julia and Dick Holmes concerning the gold and that eventually Holmes was able to retain it since Julia had no real proof that Waltz meant it for her or that Holmes stole it. I know other folks have looked for the legal records of this dispute with no luck, but I keep thinking that documentation has to be out there somewhere (unless someone walked away with the original documents many years ago - which I believe has happened on more than a few occassions). It would certainly be an interesting discussion to read though wouldn't it?

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Cubfan,

I tend to believe what you believe, he was flooded out, someone, who knows for sure, went and got him, and Julia put him up in a back room at the boarding house, and then he died in October - no dispute on that part. - however (isn't there always a "but" or a "however"), somewhere in there, is a trip to the Supers that started, and ended early, because he got more ill. Somewhere in there, a box of gold was taken (imo - stolen),
somewhere in there, he talked to Julia, but thought she wouldn't be able to find it without him, somewhere in there - he had 8 months to explain exactly where to go, somewhere in there, if he really had wanted Holmes to have it, he could have certainly talked to him - but no Holmes to be found until the day he died, somewhere in there, if he did talk to Holmes, it was on his deathbed, where he could have been delirious, or not, or he could have told it to Holmes true - or decided to get back at him by sending him on a wild goose chase. And I could keep going on.

Of course, to me - the biggest part of that is what we now know as the "Holmes Manuscript". All this above stuff, and more, makes me, mentally, throw out the Holmes Manuscript. In fact, in one of Tom Kollemborn's articles, he said that Holmes denied writing any notes - and denied it to his dying day.

I have read Glovers books - I have talked to him. He actually changed his mind on some things. (don't we all?).

We all have our own ideas on who was right and who was wrong, and, I think most of the Dutchman's writers have parts right and parts wrong, which is why I really like to have cross-references. Of course, I have read so many people's books, so many times, I sometimes have to grab one out to remember who said what and why

I want to read the book from the person who REALLY finds it - actually, I want to be part of writing that story! (and I do not believe it was wiped out in the 90's, either). What certain stories mean to you is also dependent on whether you are looking for a cache or a mine. I believe Waltz had a cache left to get. My reasoning is simple - if you can go and come back in three days with ore - at his age, he was no longer mining. And I will add Gassler to that 3 day list. (and no, he did not die on the way in - he would have had to carry gold ore IN if he did that, and then why would
he call Corbin and Kollemborn? (and his time of death would have been 3 days earlier, which is was not).

Of course, the most important thing is that - imo - no one has found it. That, and one other thing - I think there is one major flaw in all the stories that have been written - except for one.

B