Lost Dutchman Mine vs. Hidden Caches

[mrs.oroblanco]

What a surprise, huh?

Personally, though, I prefer quality over quantity.

B

 

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[FEMF]

No way to know for sure Roy.

Read Waltz' statement to Rhinehart Petrasch where he said that:

.........but he would point out the trail over the mountain from there and Julia and Rhinehart would have to go in by themselves to get the CACHES.

That tells me that at the time of his death he still had multiple caches hidden just over a mountain from the Board House.

Best-Mike

Hmm, then what about this, quote

The mine and cache are in those mountains you see over there to the east, the Superstition Mountains. My partner and I took the gold out of the mine, as I've told you, and we made three caches-two of them small, one large. Before leaving the place, after I saw my partner was gone, I removed the gold from one small cache. And I went back once-long after the Apaches killed my partner-and brought the gold away from the other small cache. But the large cache is still there.

Chapter 8 Page 98 of Ely's Book <1966 edition>

Isn't it possible that someone simply added an "S" to "cache" in your extract? Remember, Ely was one of EDIT only two VERY FEW of our published sources ever to actually interview both Julia and Reiney, and as a general rule the older sources are usually correct. I wonder where and why the one remaining cache became multiplied?
Roy

Hello Roy
You keep asking for Ore samples for you to match up with Dick's gold in white quartz match box, Right! But Jacob Waltz said that he had never seen anything like that Ore! You just had to hit the Ore with a hammer and the gold simply fall out. Now me all know gold in quartz has to be pulverized to retrieve it. Just asking? Was there multiple reasons why Jacob gave that Ore to Dick, if he did?
FEMF
P.S. I think the number of cashes has been answered by first hand information!

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello Roy
You keep asking for Ore samples for you to match up with Dick's gold in white quartz match box, Right! But Jacob Waltz said that he had never seen anything like that Ore! You just had to hit the Ore with a hammer and the gold simply fall out. Now me all know gold in quartz has to be pulverized to retrieve it. Just asking? Was there multiple reasons why Jacob gave that Ore to Dick, if he did?
FEMF
P.S. I think the number of cashes has been answered by first hand information!

Hola amigo,

To your first part, while I would be thrilled to have a sample of the ore in hand to personally examine - I would prefer a geologist to do the comparison; I am not an expert in geology and could be fooled. There are many types of gold ore, even some that are considered somewhat "exotic" and it would be entirely logical for Waltz to state that he had never seen ore like he got from this mine, as this type of ore is not common in Arizona at all. The most common type in AZ is epithermal siliceous, which is also most often in shallow pockets that pinch out. I have heard that the University of Arizona has quite an extensive library of gold ore samples from Arizona mines, almost complete, against which any "possible" ore sample could be compared for a match.

The gold ore in quartz that you can just "hammer" to remove the gold was referred to by the old-timers as "free milling" gold; other types are well known but more difficult to extract the gold, such as sulphates, refractory ores, tellurides etc.

As for the reason(s) why Waltz gave the ore to Holmes, of course we only have Holmes word on this but he was to use it to finance his search for the mine, with the understanding that he would do the right thing by Julia and Reiney. Perhaps there were other reasons as well, but it would be pure speculation on my part to guess what they would be.

I get the impression of a little frustration over my "demand" for an ore sample but really amigo this is the only way this mystery can really be solved in a scientific way. Early Dutch-hunters dug holes in so many places where they believed their "clues" or some hot tip would fit that it often happens today that someone finds one of these old prospect holes and concludes it must be the Lost Dutchman mine. There are also real mines in the Superstitions, especially off to the east but silica and gold within the official "Wilderness Area" (which is against the Wilderness Act by definition but I digress) so it is very easy to make a mistaken conclusion about the Lost Dutchman. Plenty of folks disagree with me on this point (needing an ore sample) and my word doesn't carry so much weight, so if a particular site seems like a winning candidate the issue doesn't hinge on my personal standard.

To give an example, the lost Breyfogle mine has been mentioned before; an expert compared Breyfogle's ore to high grade ore from the Amargosa gold mine (in CA) and stated it is identical, so for ME, this settles the question of where the lost Breyfogle was. It may be hopeless to get an ore sample from the LDM, especially with the legal constrictions on any rock collecting in the Wilderness area, but perhaps good photos would do if someone were to find some. Side note here for lost mine aficianados, but the ore from Breyfogle assayed even higher in gold than Waltz's did. <Breyfogle's assay came back 50% gold! The Amargosa mine produced a LOT of gold before it shut down. >

Good luck and good hunting amigo, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend in 'Dakota Territory'
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

For the benefit of our readers whom are not posting, here is what we are talking about.

Waltz's matchbox and a piece of similar ore


Compare to a sample of Epithermal gold ore, this example from the Olinghouse mine in Nevada but has typical characteristics, note color

Another example of Epithermal gold ore, this from New Zealand

Epithermal gold deposits can be VERY rich too, like this example shown, the big drawback being that they typically pinch out at shallow depths. A good number of 'skeptics' dismissed Waltz's mine as an epithermal deposit which would most likely be just a rich pocket, which he emphatically denied, and the actual mineral grain size tells the difference and shows Waltz was correct. Hypothermal gold deposits do not commonly pinch out at shallow depths, most often they run to considerable depths, like the old timers' "chimney" description.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

PS - for the opposing point of view, Tom Kollenborn wrote an article which expressed that side very well, quote

Contemporary storytellers and Dutch hunters talk about surviving samples of Waltz’s ore. They talk about comparison tests and the documents associated with these tests. There has been a tremendous amount of credence placed on the comparison of samples supposedly belonging to Jacob Waltz or those allegedly to have been found in the Superstition Wilderness Area. The stories and their source are based on faith. If facts are to be based on subjective information, at best then, objective information is generally lost. The question still remains, is everyone telling the truth? When an honest man accepts the story of another person and he bases it on trust this is still subjective information. Is this why nobody has found the infamous Dutchman’s Lost Mine? Basically this has always been my thesis.

<snip>
Just maybe the candle box of rich high-grade ore under Waltz’s death bed was nothing more than a prospector’s cache for hard times, not proof of the existence of a fabulous gold mine in the Superstition Mountains.

<Full article online at http://www.superstitionmountain.info/chronicles/2008/01_14_08.html>

Tom Kollenborn is widely acknowledged as one of the top experts on the LDM, I respectfully disagree with this idea as explained earlier but his word surely will carry more weight than mine - so if someone can convince Tom K. that they have found the LDM or that it never existed, it is pretty sure that a majority of the public will accept that testimony as proof without any gold ore being examined.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Tom always tells me he doesn't agree with everything I say, but he believes we can disagree without being disagreeable. He knows he has made some mistakes, but he won't hang on to them when they are pointed out. Some folks tend to ride that horse 'til it expires under them.

He has forgotten more about those mountains and the LDM than most of us will learn in a lifetime. If you have doubts about what he writes, it would be a good idea to bring a lot of wood to that fire. Man knows his.......stuff.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola Joe (and everyone)

I don't have a problem with Tom K's views at all. I disagree, on geology grounds - in which he has far more training than I do. Whom would you trust for opinion on the LDM, Tom K or me? I am pretty sure you (like 99.999%) would go with Tom's view. Only a 'fanatic' would continue to believe in the LDM in the face of expert opinion.

It might be a really good thing if there never was any LDM at all; just think of how few visitors would keep traveling to AZ and trekking through the Superstitions without that 'draw card'. I am sure the people who love it only for the natural beauty would be thrilled.
Oroblanco

 

[FEMF]

Hello Roy
You keep asking for Ore samples for you to match up with Dick's gold in white quartz match box, Right! But Jacob Waltz said that he had never seen anything like that Ore! You just had to hit the Ore with a hammer and the gold simply fall out. Now me all know gold in quartz has to be pulverized to retrieve it. Just asking? Was there multiple reasons why Jacob gave that Ore to Dick, if he did?
FEMF
P.S. I think the number of cashes has been answered by first hand information!

Hola amigo,

To your first part, while I would be thrilled to have a sample of the ore in hand to personally examine - I would prefer a geologist to do the comparison; I am not an expert in geology and could be fooled. There are many types of gold ore, even some that are considered somewhat "exotic" and it would be entirely logical for Waltz to state that he had never seen ore like he got from this mine, as this type of ore is not common in Arizona at all. The most common type in AZ is epithermal siliceous, which is also most often in shallow pockets that pinch out. I have heard that the University of Arizona has quite an extensive library of gold ore samples from Arizona mines, almost complete, against which any "possible" ore sample could be compared for a match.

The gold ore in quartz that you can just "hammer" to remove the gold was referred to by the old-timers as "free milling" gold; other types are well known but more difficult to extract the gold, such as sulphates, refractory ores, tellurides etc.

As for the reason(s) why Waltz gave the ore to Holmes, of course we only have Holmes word on this but he was to use it to finance his search for the mine, with the understanding that he would do the right thing by Julia and Reiney. Perhaps there were other reasons as well, but it would be pure speculation on my part to guess what they would be.

I get the impression of a little frustration over my "demand" for an ore sample but really amigo this is the only way this mystery can really be solved in a scientific way. Early Dutch-hunters dug holes in so many places where they believed their "clues" or some hot tip would fit that it often happens today that someone finds one of these old prospect holes and concludes it must be the Lost Dutchman mine. There are also real mines in the Superstitions, especially off to the east but silica and gold within the official "Wilderness Area" (which is against the Wilderness Act by definition but I digress) so it is very easy to make a mistaken conclusion about the Lost Dutchman. Plenty of folks disagree with me on this point (needing an ore sample) and my word doesn't carry so much weight, so if a particular site seems like a winning candidate the issue doesn't hinge on my personal standard.

To give an example, the lost Breyfogle mine has been mentioned before; an expert compared Breyfogle's ore to high grade ore from the Amargosa gold mine (in CA) and stated it is identical, so for ME, this settles the question of where the lost Breyfogle was. It may be hopeless to get an ore sample from the LDM, especially with the legal constrictions on any rock collecting in the Wilderness area, but perhaps good photos would do if someone were to find some. Side note here for lost mine aficianados, but the ore from Breyfogle assayed even higher in gold than Waltz's did. <Breyfogle's assay came back 50% gold! The Amargosa mine produced a LOT of gold before it shut down. >

Good luck and good hunting amigo, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend in 'Dakota Territory'
Roy ~ Oroblanco

Hello Roy
Thanks for the reply. What I'm saying is that I've crushed gold in quartz with a mortar and it's work.
I think he's talking about gold in crystal and pink quartz, by what he told Julia and Rhiney about the eighteen inch vain. I don't think you can put Dicks and Julies story's together to try and get a better picture of what happened, it will not work. Dr. Walker's story vendacates Julia's story years later.I do think Jacob gave that gold to Dick so he'd never question his story or look back and track Julia and Rhiney.
Thanks Joe, and Thanks again Roy.
FEMF

 

[gollum]

Roy,

I have been told (a couple of years ago) that occasionally what Tom K states publicly is not necessarily the same as he says privately. I think the same can be said of most Dutch Hunters (actually any treasure hunters) who write books and articles on the subject.

There are many reasons for this, and many occurrences I can think of (not necessarily from Tom K).

1. A big one is from the NPS (National Park Service) having to do with the Tumacacori Mission Treasure. Whatever individuals believe, it is the official position of the NPS that no treasure ever existed. Any treasure maps and documents (Molina) are fraudulent. There is a very good and easily understandable reasoning behind this stance. The Molina Document and map came to light in 1933 through John Mitchell. Since that time many people have claimed to have decoded them (some right here on TNet). Many times people have surreptitiously gone onto the mission property and dug holes all over the place (in one case almost undermining a wall). Is it any wonder that the NPS would want to discourage would-be treasure hunters from believing a treasure exists?

2. Most Dutch Hunters who have written books were also actively hunting the LDM. Do you think that they would give up information they have been collecting for much of their lives? Of course not (unless their belief was that the LDM either didn't exist or was already found and worked out).

3. Chuck Kenworthy. He obtained a lot of documents through years of research and untold amounts of money spent. He wrote several books Spanish Treasure Symboligy. Think he shared EVERYTHING in those documents? Of course not!

I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point.

Tom K is without a doubt one of the most knowledgeable people in the world on the subject of the LDM. Unless he REALLY thinks there never was an LDM (or as he puts it "Dutchman's Lost Mine" I like that better), I doubt many people will ever know everything he knows.

Best-Mike

 

[FEMF]

For the benefit of our readers whom are not posting, here is what we are talking about.

Waltz's matchbox and a piece of similar ore




Compare to a sample of Epithermal gold ore, this example from the Olinghouse mine in Nevada but has typical characteristics, note color

Another example of Epithermal gold ore, this from New Zealand

Epithermal gold deposits can be VERY rich too, like this example shown, the big drawback being that they typically pinch out at shallow depths. A good number of 'skeptics' dismissed Waltz's mine as an epithermal deposit which would most likely be just a rich pocket, which he emphatically denied, and the actual mineral grain size tells the difference and shows Waltz was correct. Hypothermal gold deposits do not commonly pinch out at shallow depths, most often they run to considerable depths, like the old timers' "chimney" description.
Oroblanco
Hi Roy
That Ore from the Olinghouse mine looks waxy like its gold in chalcedony? not quartz? Look close on the upper left side between two gold bands.
That's funny because I was wondering last week if gold is ever found in metamorphic rock? Thank you again Roy
FEMF

 

[FEMF]

Hello Roy
Hears a picture of a Hohokam arrow head I found recently that is made from chalcedony and the missing piece on the shaft is from a weak point in the rock just like the spot I pointed out in your Ore sample picture between the gold bands.
Thanks
FEMF

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

"I have been told (a couple of years ago) that occasionally what Tom K states publicly is not necessarily the same as he says privately. I think the same can be said of most Dutch Hunters (actually any treasure hunters) who write books and articles on the subject."

While that may be a true statement about Tom, I would say it only applies to his opinions, not any facts he may publish. As a historian, Tom can, in many cases say......"Hell, I Was There".

Assumptions that people make about Tom Kollenborn, based on what they hear from others, can be pretty far off the mark.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Mike,

"I have been told (a couple of years ago) that occasionally what Tom K states publicly is not necessarily the same as he says privately. I think the same can be said of most Dutch Hunters (actually any treasure hunters) who write books and articles on the subject."

While that may be a true statement about Tom, I would say it only applies to his opinions, not any facts he may publish. As a historian, Tom can, in many cases say......"Hell, I Was There".

Assumptions that people make about Tom Kollenborn, based on what they hear from others, can be pretty far off the mark.

Take care,

Joe

Hey Joe,

Point taken on Opinion vs. Facts. "The Person" who told me that a while back didn't specify. I had actually assumed you The Person was talking about his opinion on the subject. I didn't ever think that he mislead anyone factually.

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,

FEMF wrote'

Hi Roy
That Ore from the Olinghouse mine looks waxy like its gold in chalcedony? not quartz? Look close on the upper left side between two gold bands.
That's funny because I was wondering last week if gold is ever found in metamorphic rock?

That photo of the Olinghouse ore is not close up enough to see, but it resembles chalcedony because the quartz crystals are very tiny - you almost need a jeweler's loupe to see them at all, and being smaller sized crystals they can "flow" (not really flowing) into the openings in the host rock easier. You never know what sort of rock gold will be found in - even in COAL in one example which is not far from where I live now, a case the geologists will tell you is impossible.

VERY cool arrow point amigo! I can't imagine being shot with one like that - ouch!

Joe and Mike - I may have given a false impression of what point I was trying to make, by use of Tom Kollenborn's article extracts. My reason for posting them was to show an example of testimony that a person who does not believe the LDM ever existed OR that it is all mined out could point to in support of their belief. I am fully aware that Tom K has published articles both in support of the existence of the LDM and against, as shown in the example posted. I do not know Tom K personally and do not know what his personal opinion is on whether the LDM exists or not. I have zero doubt that Tom K has a lifetime of experience and a vast knowledge of geology. So if you will allow this, I will re-phrase my earlier "respectful disagreement" - say this, I respectfully disagree with the proposition as presented in that particular article. I am convinced the LDM does exist, and know that very good arguments can be made that it never existed, or is mined out. What convinces ME is not necessarily going to convince anyone else, and the same evidence (the ore) could lead a person to completely opposite conclusions.

Perhaps I have some personal stake in keeping the LDM lost, in order to keep the book royalties coming from all the LDM books I wrote. Or maybe not.
Roy

 

[djui5]

Great thread I'll be watching for more discussion on this matter. I'll even try to add something later if I can.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

The moving finger of KISMET wrote -->

"
Perhaps I have some personal stake in keeping the LDM lost, in order to keep the book royalties coming from all the LDM books I wrote"


Hmmmmmm he he he An actual author in our ranks, hmmmm again!

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[gollum]

I think he was speaking in the third person, referring to Tom Kollenborn.

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Goll, don't let him off of the hook that easily. I realize that Tom also had that interest but '01010101010101010101010101010101010nm',

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Don Jose' de la Mancha wrote

Hmmmmmm he he he An actual author in our ranks, hmmmm again!

Really? Which one? I suspect there are quite a few here amigo, in fact it seems like there are quite a few folks working on a book on the LDM at any given moment. I am sure you are not referring to myself, for an author is someone who writes and sells books right? I am still working on my first one, and it has absolutely no connection with the LDM. Now if our old amigo BB were here, perhaps he could find a way to tie it in, but it would be quite a task even for him.

I used to be able to say that I never wrote anything on the LDM but recently did post a bit on my blog, so can't say "never" but as it is just a blog and I was venting, I don't think that really counts. There have been repeated references to the folks who want to keep the LDM lost, for their own benefits, and since I don't believe it has been found (recently) I thought perhaps those references were obliquely hinting about myself, and since I not only don't have any books out on the LDM nor working on one, I don't have any benefit in keeping the LDM lost. I would love to see someone find it.

On the subject of books, we did finally get a copy of Glover's book a while ago, doing some re-checking and comparing etc and may have to give up the idea of 'platonic' interest in ye olde LDM. I don't know what it is about the LDM but once you are "hooked" it is very tough to turn your back on.

So what about those caches? How many are there still to be found? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[djui5]

So what about those caches? How many are there still to be found? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

There are 35 of them. Everyone keep looking