Lost Dutchman Mine vs. Hidden Caches

[Cubfan64]

A friend who doesn't post here much if at all (Zentull) once told me he had heard that a long time ago one could drive to the the Quarter Circle U ranch from the First Water ranch through the Superstitions. Of course it wasn't easy and one had to go slowly, but it was doable and done.

 

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[somehiker]

And it was probably done with a Model T,the original "rock crawler"..........SH.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Model "T"'s were indestructible. If anyone wants one, it is sitting up on the small mesa above the aguaje at the Tarasca mine behind Guaymas. Please tell me how they got it up there, when even mules have a very difficult time. Except for the tires and roof, it is completely salvageable, just a light patina of rust. It is the pickup version.

As for that statement --."There is considerable level ground between First Water Ranch &

------ the Needle -------

The above statement would logically tend to eliminate 99% of the Superstitions, no

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

"How many caches do you think Waltz had? Not necessarily Waltz and Weisser. I know that story, but Waltz was a pretty sharp cookie himself, and I'm fairly certain he knew that his years of working his mine were severely numbered by his age and the self admitted roughness of the terrain around his mine.

I think Waltz had likely made caches other than the ones he originally made with Weisser, and put them in places easier to get to than the mine."

Both Sims Ely and Jim Bark had the Dutchman's words directly from Julia Thomas, who got them from Jacob Waltz. In addition, Jim Bark had the story from Rhiney, who also got it directly from Jacob Waltz.

Both of them told the same story many times. In your opinion, who's story should we be listening
to instead, and why?

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Joe,

I didn't have an opinion. THAT is why I asked the question. In Tom Glover's DLM Book, it mentions Waltz' CACHES twice and his CACHE once.

When he told the story of the caches to them originally, it could have been true that INITIALLY he and Weisser DID hide three caches of which he had already recovered two, leaving one.

It's 2:30AM now, and I can't remember what year Waltz "FOUND" his mine, but don't you think that it's entirely possible he realized he was in his 60s and didn't have THAT many more trips to the mine left in him?

If that possibility is not too far fetched, why not take the next step and think it possible that he made new caches in places easier to access in the mountains than his mine? After all, he had one cache in a candle box under his bed, and another story about five cans of what was believed to be gold ore that he had buried in his yard. Why wouldn't he have had the foresight to do something like that?

Just a thought.

Best-Mike

 

[Garry]

Hello,

For those of you who have never seen the John Reed and Erwin Ruth letters, they are online and certainly no big secret.

I was also given permission, sometime ago, to post two articles written by Clay Worst for the Superstition Mountain Journal that provide some background for the letters. “The Salazar Survey” and “John Reed and the Lost Dutchman Mine” This thread inspired me to finish that task.

This web site is part of my personal web page and I always thought I might get around to providing a better web address but it has seemed to work fairly well. A couple people have indicated they have had a problem but hopefully those were aberrations. I would still ask that this link address not be widely published since it is a personal web page but for those who are interested in the Lost Dutchman and Superstitions, I hope you will bookmark it and visit frequently. There are other items beyond these letters that are posted on the web site.

To access the Worst-Ruth-Reed letters and Clay’s articles use the following link

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gcundiff/LostDutchman/Dutchman.htm

Scroll down to the Eleanor Clark Collection and select that link.

You will be able to figure it out from there.

One item that I think may be being misunderstood is the Reed and Ely connection. I don’t have any reason to believe that Sims Ely ever interfaced with John Reed. It was Northcutt Ely, Sim’s son, that Reed met on three occasions in the early 1930s.

Garry

 

[Cubfan64]

Hello,

For those of you who have never seen the John Reed and Erwin Ruth letters, they are online and certainly no big secret.

I was also given permission, sometime ago, to post two articles written by Clay Worst for the Superstition Mountain Journal that provide some background for the letters. “The Salazar Survey” and “John Reed and the Lost Dutchman Mine” This thread inspired me to finish that task.

This web site is part of my personal web page and I always thought I might get around to providing a better web address but it has seemed to work fairly well. A couple people have indicated they have had a problem but hopefully those were aberrations. I would still ask that this link address not be widely published since it is a personal web page but for those who are interested in the Lost Dutchman and Superstitions, I hope you will bookmark it and visit frequently. There are other items beyond these letters that are posted on the web site.

To access the Worst-Ruth-Reed letters and Clay’s articles use the following link

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gcundiff/LostDutchman/Dutchman.htm

Scroll down to the Eleanor Clark Collection and select that link.

You will be able to figure it out from there.

One item that I think may be being misunderstood is the Reed and Ely connection. I don’t have any reason to believe that Sims Ely ever interfaced with John Reed. It was Northcutt Ely, Sim’s son, that Reed met on three occasions in the early 1930s.

Garry

Hi Garry,

Welcome to the "nuthouse" so to speak - not that it's that much nuttier than some of the other LDM forums, but it does have it's moments!!

Looking forward to seeing new additions to your webpage.

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

"Welcome to the "nuthouse" so to speak - not that it's that much nuttier than some of the other LDM forums, but it does have it's moments!!"

It seems like there are a lot of strange folks on this site, but when you consider the number of members registered, it brings the overall picture into sharper focus. You quickly learn which Wako's need to be put on "ignore", and everything smooth's out nicely. Some have put me on ignore, so I guess it all equals out.

The nice thing about this site is that you can speak your mind without some egomaniac getting in the way of the conversation. I have had a few of my posts, I think, deleted, but that was because I posted something stupid, not because management disagreed with my position on the topic.

They keep a loose hand on the reins here, but will not allow personal attacks on other members. I can live with that, although I may have slipped a time or
two.

It's good to see Garry here. His input will be greatly appreciated by everyone.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

All,

It turns out that Sims Ely started his book in the 1940's, and his mind remained sharp to the time of his death. It is likely that he was in the sanitarium for physical reasons, which was not all that unusual for that era.

As I receive more information, and I will, I will pass it along here.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Cubfan64]

All,

It turns out that Sims Ely started his book in the 1940's, and his mind remained sharp to the time of his death. It is likely that he was in the sanitarium for physical reasons, which was not all that unusual for that era.

As I receive more information, and I will, I will pass it along here.

Joe Ribaudo

Thanks Joe - I'd be interested in the information as well as how well documented it is. While you're "asking around," can you get any kind of read on how much input the Bark family members had as far as "editing" the final draft?


Incidently - come to think of it, has anyone ever found out if Sims Ely's notes and/or manuscript has ever surfaced?

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

Unless I am asked to keep the information to myself, I will tell you everything I am able to find out about Ely. Since I first became a member of the LDM Forum, I have been hearing, some, people run Sims Ely down in one way or another. I have always been on the other side of that particular battle.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

In reading the LDM talk given by Northcutt Ely, it's important to note that he gave the speech in 1988, 34 years after his father's death. In the speech you will notice many obvious mistakes. One of those mistakes is his stating that Jim Bark came to Arizona "a penniless orphan..." Northcutt was a brilliant man and highly respected. Your guess is as good as mine as to why he made those mistakes in his talk to The Fortnightly Club.

http://www.redlandsfortnightly.org/papers/duchmine.htm

Considering the evidence to the contrary, anyone who takes that comment as evidence that Ely and Bark weren't close friends and partners for over fifty years is only kidding themselves.

This was written by Sims Ely in August of 1953:

"The preparation of this book, from the early searches for the Lost Dutchman to the actual writing, has been the avocation of more than half a lifetime, and in it many persons have played a part. I should like to single out for special thanks John Wiley of the staff of William Morrow and Company; Miss Edith Mirrielees, long a member of the English faculty of Stanford University; and Bruce Bliven of The New Republic. But there are a host of others........."

Anyone interested in Ely's mental state towards the end of his life might want to read the "Author's Note" at the end of his book. I know, maybe this and maybe that, but that's all guesswork. The best evidence is that Ely was mentally sound in 1953 and 1954, and the statement was penned by him.

If someone has evidence that shows that is not a true statement, I would like to see it. So far, nothing has been presented but conjecture.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

One other point about Northcutt Ely. In 1988 he was 85 years old and would pass away nine years later. Jim Bark was his father's close personal friend, and his early history would not be something that would be as familiar to Northcutt as it was to Sims.

I don't find anything unusuall in Northcutt not being that knowledgeable about Barks family details.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Something to keep in mind about the Chestnut Lodge Sanitarium, is that "sanitarium's" were primarily devoted to long term hospitalization, and Tuberculosis was the main reason for sanitarium's being created.

It is more likely that Ely was hospitalized there for something akin to TB, than mental illness. Chestnut Lodge had a reputation as the best sanitarium in the country. It was a high dollar facility, popular among the rich and famous.

It's true that they did the studies that have been mentioned, and they were considered to be on the "cutting edge" for treatments in that era. Because Sims Ely was hospitalized there, it is not a given that he was mentally ill.

The only evidence that has been presented here, so far, while circumstantial, supports the conclusion that Ely was mentally competent in 1953-'54. The evidence to the contrary is nebulous.....at best.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[gollum]

Just a little something to back up Joe's post:

Everybody has to understand the meaning of two terms:

Sanitarium= While in many cases, the two words are used interchangeably, they are different. A SANITARIUM is a place to keep people who are suffering from mental health issues.

Sanatorium= A SANATORIUM is a place for long term care of people suffering serious and contagious physical health issues (most usually tuberculosis)

Chestnut Lodge was a Sanatorium (not Sanitarium) which would have mostly been used for Tuberculosis Patients

Best-Mike

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Actually, Chestnut Lodge was known to house both types of folks - just at different times.

In its life, it was:

A boarding house
A hotel (which eventually shut down)
Bullard (a surgeon, neurologist and doctor of psychiatry) bought it and opened it in 1910 (and named it Chestnut Lodge) and housed people with nervous and mental diseases, and then the whole family kind of got involved and used it more like a hospital, but had famous doctors (mostly psychiatrists) from around the country and had studies done that doctors and nurses today study while in school, called the Chestnut Lodge studies.

However, it was also had a floor for diseases like tuberculosis and "consumption" (which is usually either tuberculosis or cancer, depending on the year) and a part used as a "rest home" - where they brought in people (therapists, dancers, performers, etc) that worked with patients, much like we do today in nursing homes. (to keep the more elderly as cognitive as possible during their later years).

So, they really did both.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb4345/is_8_31/ai_n29025988/

B

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Chestnut Lodge has been called a Sanitarium, Sanitorium, Asylum and Insane Asylum. I would guess that a few other names could be thrown in as well. While, in it's time, it was know as the premier hospital for mental disorders, the truth was somewhat darker. I believe I
have read that suicides were a problem.

Any decent spell check will give you both options.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

I see I should have looked a little deeper at Chestnut Lodge.

It is still correct to refer to a place for the care of long term physical illnesses (TB) as a Sanatorium, while a place for the care of mental disorders is referred to as a Sanitarium (the root word being Sanit-y).

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Perhaps the Latin "root word" you are looking for might be, sanitas.....

Take care,

Joe

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

""""The Latin "root word"""">>>> The “Latin Heart”
"Quoted From Mr. Jim Hatt">>>> http://www.desertusa.com/ldm-1/peralta.html The Latin Heart is the most important of all the stones in the Peralta Stone Map set and the only stone in the set that provides specific information pertaining to the location of the mines or caches depicted on the other stones. The way to solve the mystery of the Peralta Stone Maps is to follow the directions engraved right on them, “BUSCA EL MAPA,” Study the Maps, and then follow them to where you think they lead. When you have arrive at what you believe to be the end of the trail, you remove the original Heart insert from the cavity in the top Trail Map and insert the Latin Heart into the cavity (This explains why the Heart Cavity was cut out in the upper Trail Map and the original Heart is removable. “BUSCA EL COAZON,” Study the “Latin Heart”. If you find the landmarks specified on the Latin Heart in the vicinity around you, YOU ARE AT THE END OF THE TRAIL!

The only thing left to do is to locate the points identified as “MEUS” on the Latin Heart. One of them is most likely going to have a number of the landmarks around it that Lost Dutchman Mine hunters have been searching for since the ‘Ole Dutchman died in 1891, and will validate the link between the Peralta Stone Maps and the Lost Dutchman Mine.

Had the Stone Crosses, the Latin Heart, the Priest/Horse Map, the two Trail Maps, and the first Stone Heart all been found in the same place at the same time, someone might then have been able to evaluate them as a complete set, determine the correct way to make use of them and locate the mines or treasure they pertain to >>>>((((long before now.))))<<<<