LDM why you cant get it !

[cactusjumper]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Jack,

You are trying to use today's (American) logic to understand Spanish thinking from 1581. To understand their thinking in that era, you need to read a ton of historical accounts.

The Spanish of that era would exterminate an entire tribe if they thought they were deficating in a cesspool pool over a deposit of silver.

Different breed of cat altogether.

Joe Ribaudo

 

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[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Jack,

You are trying to use today's (American) logic to understand Spanish thinking from 1581. To understand their thinking in that era, you need to read a ton of historical accounts.

The Spanish of that era would exterminate an entire tribe if they thought they were deficating in a cesspool pool over a deposit of silver.

Different breed of cat altogether.

Joe Ribaudo

Joe,

I will acknowledge my Ignorance of the Period , and to the Rough existence you refer to.

My post will stand to reflect that.......J

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Jack,

What I am suggesting is, if someone is going to pursue Spanish treasure or mines today, it might not hurt to know the pertinent history of the era in which they were first discovered and lost. More knowledge means less guessing.

After looking into a few more books on the subject, I find that you could make a very good case that Espejo never found gold. That being said, there are still some troubling passages that suggest that he did. The weight of written evidence suggests that he did not find gold in Arizona.

On the other hand, I believe the Spaniards did find gold in Arizona a good deal prior to the 1800's.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Jack,

Red Mountain is 30 miles, in a straight line, from the Quarter Circle U Ranch. The best evidence for the mine being in the Superstition Mountains comes from Jim Bark via Julia Thomas. Waltz was going to take them to the ranch house and point out the trail over the mountain from there.

Can you tell us how much time Bark and Ely, or Thomas and Petrasch(s) spent searching in the Red Mountain area? If not, I believe it will be a pretty hard sell.

Ramses' book, "Quest for Peralta Gold" is a very convincing argument for the LDM being at Red Mountain, if you throw out all of the best evidence available. Most of the "evidence" that is quoted, came from people who may have been suffering from the "Hell I Was There" syndrome. Bark and Julia were there.

Just my personal opinion on Mr. Ramses' conclusions.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Jack,

Red Mountain is 30 miles, in a straight line, from the Quarter Circle U Ranch. The best evidence for the mine being in the Superstition Mountains comes from Jim Bark via Julia Thomas. Waltz was going to take them to the ranch house and point out the trail over the mountain from there.

Can you tell us how much time Bark and Ely, or Thomas and Petrasch(s) spent searching in the Red Mountain area? If not, I believe it will be a pretty hard sell.

Ramses' book, "Quest for Peralta Gold" is a very convincing argument for the LDM being at Red Mountain, if you throw out all of the best evidence available. Most of the "evidence" that is quoted, came from people who may have been suffering from the "Hell I Was There" syndrome. Bark and Julia were there.

Just my personal opinion on Mr. Ramses' conclusions.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

joe , i hate to say this but coming from someone that has been there .. your reply was correct ...even if we dont agree ..

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

JackH wrote

I would be Honored if you ask, I feel my time is limited in answering your questions in a timely order.

As your time is quite limited, and I don't wish to test your temper I will restrict my questions to one;

Is it your desire to have someone go to your selected site, in order to confirm what you say about it? Thank you in advance,

Oroblanco

 

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

JackH wrote

I would be Honored if you ask, I feel my time is limited in answering your questions in a timely order.

As your time is quite limited, and I don't wish to test your temper I will restrict my questions to one;

Is it your desire to have someone go to your selected site, in order to confirm what you say about it? Thank you in advance,

Oroblanco

Ray,

I understand the results of those unfamiliar with satellite imagery, as the youths mistaking an arroyo for ATV tracks.

As one of our members living in the Area (Salt) has put it to me (pm), and along with my deduction of his msg, "His boots on the ground had not revealed the evidence that I have provided !" And that was inflected in a positive sense.

I have been researching using satellite imagery as a tool for several years on locations locally in Pennsylvania, and elsewhere.

Quote:
(Is it your desire to have someone go to your selected site, in order to confirm what you say about it?)

I had hoped that a thousand 'someones' could go to confirm what I say about it ! This Forum is so skeptical, that anyone who reported positive results wouldn't be believed by a large number of sensible TH'ers and rightfully so.

To prove my Theory would require a backhoe, and maybe a small dozer. Sophisticated electronics, would leave skepticism.

2 thoughts:

1) I ran into an old friend one day taking golf bags from a vehicle. I asked how his game was ? He said, "Golf is the easiest game that we all make hard !" (That was just as easy for him to say, since he was shooting par.) In comparison with the LDM, I believe it has always been there (Red Mountain) most of us are trying to make it too hard looking in the Superstition's.

2) Driving on the wrong side of the road, as in England. Most on the LDM Forum have no reason to look anywhere other than the Super's. To change that thought is like driving on the wrong side of the road, some of us can't do that. But are the English correct ? Is it us who are driving on the wrong side of the road ? (Yes, I know, it's all about the Sword) But most of us came from over there.

Bonus thought:
Waltz had to be an exceptional person, educated, survived for years in the desert, despite his notorious reputation. Lived out his life to the end, but not to the fullest, as we might have done with his Secret. I had mentioned previously, that I believe Jacob Waltz had a hobby. Retracing Peralta's tracks. I believe he had other Mines that he uncovered, but not the Holy Experience that Red Mountain offers.

Waltz was not a man of Money, or was He ? He always had enough with a nice grubstake (nugget or two) hidden away. Could have exposed his Secret to assume unbelievable wealth, but did not. I believe Jacob Waltz became somewhat a Servant to the Mine (LDM). He only took what was necessary, and probably buried portions of his hoard on his trail back to town. Nobody knows if he really went back more than once to the Great Mine, but probably passed by to make sure it was secured. Does that matter at this point ? I believe Jacob Waltz because of his Religious Experience with Red Mountain, never found a person worthy of sharing this Secret. But was willing to direct others to his other mine/s at the end.......J

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

I think Waltz may have lived exactly the way he wanted to live.

Times were different back then - and, there are still people around today who would be very happy to have a little homestead, with a few chickens
and only see people when they want to. Heck - that's heaven to some folks.

"rich" is a relative term.

Beth

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

JackH wrote

Ray,

I understand the results of those unfamiliar with satellite imagery, as the youths mistaking an arroyo for ATV tracks.

As one of our members living in the Area (Salt) has put it to me (pm), and along with my deduction of his msg, "His boots on the ground had not revealed the evidence that I have provided !" And that was inflected in a positive sense.

I have been researching using satellite imagery as a tool for several years on locations locally in Pennsylvania, and elsewhere.

Quote:<Oroblanco wrote earlier>

(Is it your desire to have someone go to your selected site, in order to confirm what you say about it?)

I had hoped that a thousand 'someones' could go to confirm what I say about it ! This Forum is so skeptical, that anyone who reported positive results wouldn't be believed by a large number of sensible TH'ers and rightfully so.

To prove my Theory would require a backhoe, and maybe a small dozer. Sophisticated electronics, would leave skepticism.

So skeptical? Are you aware of just how many people have made the same claims here on this forum, that they have found the infamous Lost Dutchman gold mine? We have yet to see a speck of gold, and it is after all a lost gold mine right? Over 100 people at last count all claim to have found the LDM, at over 100 different sites - are they all to be just accepted? We would have nothing else to talk about here than to be passing out congrats and compliments on the fantastic successes, though not one has shown any gold. Every few weeks since the start of Google Earth, we have someone new turn up who has "found" the LDM via satellite imagery, yet all too often the same persons do not want to put their own boots on the ground to check out those sites. If the supposed finder is not willing to put his own boots there, why should we? The Superstitions are NOT the way they appear in satellite imagery amigo, they are extremely rough and rugged terrain that does not show up on photos; to understand what they are really like you need to go hike through them. They are filled with remote side canyons, caves, wrinkles in the earth and thick brush that conceal a LOT.

The old aerial photographs resulted in a similar 'flush' of people who claimed to find the LDM by studying them, and in some ways the aerial photographs have better details than the satellite imagery, and both have severe limitations. The fact that so many people have DIED in the Superstitions (and around them as well) ought to be a red flag to anyone suggesting for others to go in and check out some remote spot found by satellite or aerial photographs, that perhaps the finder ought to check it out in person before claiming the 'honors' of being 'the' finder of the Lost Dutchman.

I am sorry if this seems blunt but I do not wish to waste your time or mine, you have presented an interesting case but it remains unproven in my view, the fact that you yourself are NOT willing to go check it out even in a cursory manner, makes me very hesitant to go check out Red Mountain myself. I can't urge anyone else to either.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my question, good luck and good hunting to you Jack, I hope you find the treasures that you seek; just for the record, it is Roy, not Ray.
Oroblanco

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

JackH wrote

Ray,

I understand the results of those unfamiliar with satellite imagery, as the youths mistaking an arroyo for ATV tracks.

As one of our members living in the Area (Salt) has put it to me (pm), and along with my deduction of his msg, "His boots on the ground had not revealed the evidence that I have provided !" And that was inflected in a positive sense.

I have been researching using satellite imagery as a tool for several years on locations locally in Pennsylvania, and elsewhere.

Quote:<Oroblanco wrote earlier>

(Is it your desire to have someone go to your selected site, in order to confirm what you say about it?)

I had hoped that a thousand 'someones' could go to confirm what I say about it ! This Forum is so skeptical, that anyone who reported positive results wouldn't be believed by a large number of sensible TH'ers and rightfully so.

To prove my Theory would require a backhoe, and maybe a small dozer. Sophisticated electronics, would leave skepticism.

So skeptical? Are you aware of just how many people have made the same claims here on this forum, that they have found the infamous Lost Dutchman gold mine? We have yet to see a speck of gold, and it is after all a lost gold mine right? Over 100 people at last count all claim to have found the LDM, at over 100 different sites - are they all to be just accepted? We would have nothing else to talk about here than to be passing out congrats and compliments on the fantastic successes, though not one has shown any gold. Every few weeks since the start of Google Earth, we have someone new turn up who has "found" the LDM via satellite imagery, yet all too often the same persons do not want to put their own boots on the ground to check out those sites. If the supposed finder is not willing to put his own boots there, why should we? The Superstitions are NOT the way they appear in satellite imagery amigo, they are extremely rough and rugged terrain that does not show up on photos; to understand what they are really like you need to go hike through them. They are filled with remote side canyons, caves, wrinkles in the earth and thick brush that conceal a LOT.

The old aerial photographs resulted in a similar 'flush' of people who claimed to find the LDM by studying them, and in some ways the aerial photographs have better details than the satellite imagery, and both have severe limitations. The fact that so many people have DIED in the Superstitions (and around them as well) ought to be a red flag to anyone suggesting for others to go in and check out some remote spot found by satellite or aerial photographs, that perhaps the finder ought to check it out in person before claiming the 'honors' of being 'the' finder of the Lost Dutchman.

I am sorry if this seems blunt but I do not wish to waste your time or mine, you have presented an interesting case but it remains unproven in my view, the fact that you yourself are NOT willing to go check it out even in a cursory manner, makes me very hesitant to go check out Red Mountain myself. I can't urge anyone else to either.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my question, good luck and good hunting to you Jack, I hope you find the treasures that you seek; just for the record, it is Roy, not Ray.
Oroblanco

good piont about how many claim to have found the LDM .. but only one has located a mine that explains how the dirrectiosns and clues all fit together and not only explain what and where the mine is but also explains the true history of the mine ...and the mine it self matches the defining discription of the LDM, and if someone else had found the real LDM they would be able to find things other overlooked .. like translation of the stones and decoding waltz's clues

and even finding waltz's will , when it was right infront of you the whole time .. not to leave out the sites direct link to tayopa and the stones being a book of coded data..

in respect to logical proff i even dirrectly link the stones to who made them and why and pionted out dozens of links to to true creator of the stones

i think the only thing left to do is go get ore samples and anyone that thinks they have found the real LDM should know better ...

there is only one real LDM ..and already know for a fact my ore is 73% pure metal !

for the first time i have ask someone else to help me on expedition 5

i will be more then willing to prove every last word i just posted ...

for those that thaught they had found the real LDM .. thinking it and knowing it is two very diffrent things ....lol

 

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

JackH wrote

Ray,

I understand the results of those unfamiliar with satellite imagery, as the youths mistaking an arroyo for ATV tracks.

As one of our members living in the Area (Salt) has put it to me (pm), and along with my deduction of his msg, "His boots on the ground had not revealed the evidence that I have provided !" And that was inflected in a positive sense.

I have been researching using satellite imagery as a tool for several years on locations locally in Pennsylvania, and elsewhere.

Quote:<Oroblanco wrote earlier>

(Is it your desire to have someone go to your selected site, in order to confirm what you say about it?)

I had hoped that a thousand 'someones' could go to confirm what I say about it ! This Forum is so skeptical, that anyone who reported positive results wouldn't be believed by a large number of sensible TH'ers and rightfully so.

To prove my Theory would require a backhoe, and maybe a small dozer. Sophisticated electronics, would leave skepticism.

So skeptical? Are you aware of just how many people have made the same claims here on this forum, that they have found the infamous Lost Dutchman gold mine? We have yet to see a speck of gold, and it is after all a lost gold mine right? Over 100 people at last count all claim to have found the LDM, at over 100 different sites - are they all to be just accepted? We would have nothing else to talk about here than to be passing out congrats and compliments on the fantastic successes, though not one has shown any gold. Every few weeks since the start of Google Earth, we have someone new turn up who has "found" the LDM via satellite imagery, yet all too often the same persons do not want to put their own boots on the ground to check out those sites. If the supposed finder is not willing to put his own boots there, why should we? The Superstitions are NOT the way they appear in satellite imagery amigo, they are extremely rough and rugged terrain that does not show up on photos; to understand what they are really like you need to go hike through them. They are filled with remote side canyons, caves, wrinkles in the earth and thick brush that conceal a LOT.

The old aerial photographs resulted in a similar 'flush' of people who claimed to find the LDM by studying them, and in some ways the aerial photographs have better details than the satellite imagery, and both have severe limitations. The fact that so many people have DIED in the Superstitions (and around them as well) ought to be a red flag to anyone suggesting for others to go in and check out some remote spot found by satellite or aerial photographs, that perhaps the finder ought to check it out in person before claiming the 'honors' of being 'the' finder of the Lost Dutchman.

I am sorry if this seems blunt but I do not wish to waste your time or mine, you have presented an interesting case but it remains unproven in my view, the fact that you yourself are NOT willing to go check it out even in a cursory manner, makes me very hesitant to go check out Red Mountain myself. I can't urge anyone else to either.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my question, good luck and good hunting to you Jack, I hope you find the treasures that you seek; just for the record, it is Roy, not Ray.
Oroblanco

Roy,

That (Ray) was a typo, we have exchanged several times, that was the first, no disrespect intended. I am not here for the post count.

I find several inflections difficult to understand.

Quote:
Every few weeks since the start of Google Earth, we have someone new turn up who has "found" the LDM via satellite imagery

Reply:
And I will bet they are all in the Supers !
Not one of you has given an example of evidence in depth, that I have provided, as have been given before me concerning Red Mountain ! Or this much depth for anywhere else ? Remember ? These are all Your Maps.

Personal note:
If you threw out half of the information I have provided, and how they relate to each other, the coincidence that is left is Extraordinary. I did not make the Maps, I did not make the images. All I did was put them together and Openly offered them up ! So if half is Extraordinary, what do we call All of it ? Impossible ?

Quote:
yet all too often the same persons do not want to put their own boots on the ground to check out those sites.

Reply:
I had invested over $1000 and hundreds of hours of research to arrive at my conclusion, only to find out that Red Mountain is Off Limits and regarded by the Pima-Maricopa as Hallowed Ground. It would cost less to travel out there and investigate my Theory and return home. I respect their Holy Ground. I am a 5th generation of a great American Religious sect that evolved 200 years ago. But the blood line is the Extraordinary Gift I live with. I have been given a gift of Genealogy with documented references, which could go back to 60 AD. But I'm only concerned about the last 7 centuries. I Honor the Pima-Maricopa Native Americans, the same way I Respect You Roy, and your land, your property. But the Pima-Maricopa are descendants who have occupied this land from 700-2000 years. If They want me, I am sure they can find me.

I am aware of the fact that some members here have spent tons more time, and expense to match, than I have on the LDM. But I spent well over a Grand and never went out the door !

Quote:
If the supposed finder is not willing to put his own boots there, why should we?

Reply:
Its Pima-Maricopa Land. I would take the next available flight to place boots on the ground, but only if They gave me an invitation to do so.

The Subject of this Thread is not mine, nor is it anyone Else's other than the Pima-Maricopa, to do with it however They choose !

Quote:
The Superstitions are NOT the way they appear in satellite imagery amigo, they are extremely rough and rugged terrain that does not show up on photos; to understand what they are really like you need to go hike through them.

Reply:
I appreciate that Roy, and can't imagine how many pairs of boots some have worn out in a short time, but aren't we really discussing Red Mountain ? And I highly recommend Bates Ultra Lites Mod #E02261 used around the world for Special OPS. Super lightweight, goretex, leather, anti abrasion heal and toe 8" side zipper.

Quote:
The old aerial photographs resulted in a similar 'flush' of people who claimed to find the LDM by studying them, and in some ways the aerial photographs have better details than the satellite imagery, and both have severe limitations. The fact that so many people have DIED in the Superstitions (and around them as well) ought to be a red flag to anyone suggesting for others to go in and check out some remote spot found by satellite or aerial photographs, that perhaps the finder ought to check it out in person before claiming the 'honors' of being 'the' finder of the Lost Dutchman.

Reply:
Again you seem to refer mostly to the Superstitions. I really don't think anyone will loose their life in the Red Mountain area, unless they fall off a cliff, drown, someone takes them out, or they fall into a deep pit, excluding all the poisonous creatures in their own natural habitat, or having a heart attack. That is precisely what makes this Area outrageously Unique.

Quote:
NOT willing to go check it out even in a cursory manner.

Reply:
Easier for you to say, I'm 2500 miles away. If it is too far for you as well, get a friend who lives local, have him take your Maps # 60, 5, 17, & (10 which I am still working with). And have him take copies of all the pertinent satellite info. He will come to the same conclusions (with limitations because he wont get close enough) that I can see from here.

Quote:
Thank you for taking the time to answer my question, good luck and good hunting to you Jack, I hope you find the treasures that you seek

Reply:
Thank You my Friend !

PS Sounds like you're coming around to my side of it, Roy.......Jack

 

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

I think Waltz may have lived exactly the way he wanted to live.

Times were different back then - and, there are still people around today who would be very happy to have a little homestead, with a few chickens
and only see people when they want to. Heck - that's heaven to some folks.

"rich" is a relative term.

Beth

Mrs. Oroblanco,

I feel the same way about this. Some say Jacob Waltz lived in misery, and died penniless. In fact he had financial security. He had enough gold under his bed to last his way of living without having to touch his large cache.

I knew a man who owned thousands and thousands of acres near Eagle Pass, Texas. His ranches were well stocked, and generated quite a bit of money from deer leasing. To top it off, he had 600 oil wells. He like Sam Walton, would drive an old truck. He dressed in denim overalls, and worked every day on his own supply store despite his age, and a case of Parkinson's.

I always enjoyed visiting with this old man. When I worked in the natural gas fields, this is where I got my supplies from.

Homar P. Olivarez

Hello Homar,

The man you talk about is a selfmade man. A treasure himself. These treasures are the smartest, they wear their clothes like an old pair of boots. They are the most comfortable each and everyday. I have met a few, but most could clean up very well. I hope you meet more of the same Homar, on your Journey. Someday someone may talk about you as well.......J

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

I think Waltz may have lived exactly the way he wanted to live.

Times were different back then - and, there are still people around today who would be very happy to have a little homestead, with a few chickens
and only see people when they want to. Heck - that's heaven to some folks.

"rich" is a relative term.

Beth

Mrs. Oroblanco,

I feel the same way about this. Some say Jacob Waltz lived in misery, and died penniless. In fact he had financial security. He had enough gold under his bed to last his way of living without having to touch his large cache.

I knew a man who owned thousands and thousands of acres near Eagle Pass, Texas. His ranches were well stocked, and generated quite a bit of money from deer leasing. To top it off, he had 600 oil wells. He like Sam Walton, would drive an old truck. He dressed in denim overalls, and worked every day on his own supply store despite his age, and a case of Parkinson's.

I always enjoyed visiting with this old man. When I worked in the natural gas fields, this is where I got my supplies from.

Homar P. Olivarez

so you knew a rich man ...lol

i knew a rich man once .. he love genetics . gender research .. he own and collect some of the rarest plant strains in the world ..some say over 300 million ,some say what he knew was worth 100 times that .. .. he was blinded in a freak acciedent, he walked away .. no one knows what happend to him .. he vanished off the face of the earth .. some say he lives behind the keys some where on those cold rainy nights .. much like tonight ..ya i knew a rich man too ....

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Hola amigos,
This is a very long reply, so I must beg your indulgence; thank you in advance.

Blindbowman wrote

for those that thaught they had found the real LDM .. thinking it and knowing it is two very diffrent things ....lol

Agreed!

JackH wrote

<Oroblanco wrote earlier>

Every few weeks since the start of Google Earth, we have someone new turn up who has "found" the LDM via satellite imagery

Reply:
And I will bet they are all in the Supers !
Not one of you has given an example of evidence in depth, that I have provided, as have been given before me concerning Red Mountain ! Or this much depth for anywhere else ? Remember ? These are all Your Maps.

Well, no they were not all in the Supers, at least not all in the Wilderness area that is; if you care to read through some of the previous claimants postings, (they are fairly numerous) you will find several whom have presented a certain amount of depth, while others are rather thin. These are not MY maps, the stone maps for instance are certainly not my own, nor do they belong to any of our members here. The maps have been in widespread circulation, which does not mean that "we" the treasure hunters really have strong support or belief in them. It is just way too easy for anyone to make up a fake treasure map, and any map that has been in public circulation almost certainly has some sort of a fatal flaw, or they would be leading people to find great treasures. One of the previous claimants site for the LDM is not even within the area but quite another mountain range.

One more point on this, that is most of us are not claiming to have found the Lost Dutchman gold mine, you on the other hand, are. Hence the burden of proof really is in your corner here.

JackH also wrote

<Oroblanco wrote, earlier>

yet all too often the same persons do not want to put their own boots on the ground to check out those sites.

Reply:
I had invested over $1000 and hundreds of hours of research to arrive at my conclusion, only to find out that Red Mountain is Off Limits and regarded by the Pima-Maricopa as Hallowed Ground. <snip>
I am aware of the fact that some members here have spent tons more time, and expense to match, than I have on the LDM. But I spent well over a Grand and never went out the door !

It appears that you missed the point entirely here which is this, putting it in simple terms;

You are not willing to go check out your own site, so why should we?

You want us to get into trouble with the reservation authorities? People can and do get lost, injured and even die, well outside the Wilderness Area too - some folks are incautious or careless and get into trouble even in areas that to most experienced outdoors folks would never have a bit of trouble.

There are a number of people who seem to want the glory of being 'the' one who found the Lost Dutchman gold mine, without ever doing any actual leg work on the ground. As impressive as your work on the satellite images is, I am respectfully unconvinced and need to see ore compared with existing specimens from Waltz. Not ME seeing the ore and doing the comparison, I could be fooled, I would much prefer to have a geologist or at least a trained assayer with years of experience do the ore comparison. I have posted this before (repeatedly) so my apologies to all who read this for the repetition, but I am sorry, just matching up satellite images with a theory will not do it for me. I do not gain one cent by the LDM remaining lost either, and would LOVE to congratulate someone for actually finding that lost mine, even if only to rub the noses of the skeptics who claim it never even existed.

JackH also wrote

Easier for you to say, I'm 2500 miles away. If it is too far for you as well, get a friend who lives local, have him take your Maps # 60, 5, 17, & (10 which I am still working with). And have him take copies of all the pertinent satellite info. He will come to the same conclusions (with limitations because he wont get close enough) that I can see from here.

Easier for me to say? I lived for thirty years in NE PA amigo, and it cost me plenty to make trips to AZ, CA and Alaska over the years. I WISH that I lived close enough to the Superstitions to be able to just go a-hiking in them any time I pleased, but have never had that advantage and pleasure. I currently live over 1000 miles away from them, and yes we do have friends who live close but I would never ask them to go somewhere I am not willing to go myself. And since you are not willing to go there, neither am I.

JackH also wrote

PS Sounds like you're coming around to my side of it, Roy..

Then clearly my words are not being understood, for I am very far from being convinced of your theory as yet. Just take for example one issue, which you have not mentioned so far, or if you have I must have missed it. Look at a map of fairly large scale, so that the region from Red Mountain all the way to Florence will fit on it easily; now put a pin or other marker on your location on Red Mountain; take another pin and put it in Adamsville. Why Adamsville? Because that is about on the location where Jacob Waltz went to buy supplies to replace those lost due to his mule, and then find Sacaton and put another pin there. Why Sacaton? Because that is close to the place where Waltz's partner Jacob Weiser was found, wounded after fleeing the ambush at the mine. Do you see a problem? The distance is very great and illogical that either of those men should head there to buy supplies or seek aid if the mine were really located on Red Mountain.

I don't intend on trying to "bait" you into a lengthy argument on this amigo, as you have said your time is quite limited and you have presented your case and your desires; and also, questions or debate may be interpreted as some kind of personal attack when nothing of the kind is intended. Thank you for taking the time to reply, I wish you good luck and good hunting Jack, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Jack,

Roy is correct here. If you know the history of the LDM, you know it's not at Red Mountain. On the other hand, the story made Ramses some money. The man does know how to make a living.

Joe

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Jack,

Roy is correct here. If you know the history of the LDM, you know it's not at Red Mountain. On the other hand, the story made Ramses some money. The man does know how to make a living.

Joe

you mean its not on red mt ... how about red hill ...?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

HI BB, are you referring to the red ANT hill you sat upon? The one where you involuntarily learned a new shaman dance ?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Beth & Roy,

The Irony:

If it wasn't for You Two, which have offered up the most questions, which has lead to the Best Coffee in the morning for most of my replies, this would not have developed for Me in the depth of my Theory. I am Deeply Indebted to both of You for that !

Secondly Beth, when I start out with "Gentlemen, Ladies", it is not in disrespect to your Gender. It is my way of addressing you as an Equal following the structure of the alphabet. And I must compliment you on Your angle of Questions which has been frustrating at times, and rightfully so.

That being said:


Quote:
These are not MY maps, the stone maps for instance are certainly not my own, nor do they belong to any of our members here.

Reply:
I Assume that anyone, any group who has ventured into the Superstitions, carrying the Maps that I have used for my Theory, Owns them. My use for them has not gone out the back door. Never left the house, as best I can remember. Not mine, haven't earned them. If I am justifiably wrong in this assumption, then I Stand Corrected.

Quote:
One more point on this, that is most of us are not claiming to have found the Lost Dutchman gold mine, you on the other hand, are. Hence the burden of proof really is in your corner here.

Reply:
Unquestionably Roy ! Locked On !

Quote:
It is just way too easy for anyone to make up a fake treasure map, and any map that has been in public circulation almost certainly has some sort of a fatal flaw, or they would be leading people to find great treasures.

Reply:
I have used several Maps to show it is Red Mountain based on "Spanish Maps, that are (fake) ?" Why would someone or a number of people lead anyone to Red Mountain ?
And "Leading people to find great treasures." Isn't that Why we're Here Roy !

Quote:
Then clearly my words are not being understood, for I am very far from being convinced of your theory as yet. Just take for example one issue, which you have not mentioned so far, or if you have I must have missed it. Look at a map of fairly large scale, so that the region from Red Mountain all the way to Florence will fit on it easily; now put a pin or other marker on your location on Red Mountain; take another pin and put it in Adamsville. Why Adamsville? Because that is about on the location where Jacob Waltz went to buy supplies to replace those lost due to his mule, and then find Sacaton and put another pin there. Why Sacaton? Because that is close to the place where Waltz's partner Jacob Weiser was found, wounded after fleeing the ambush at the mine. Do you see a problem? The distance is very great and illogical that either of those men should head there to buy supplies or seek aid if the mine were really located on Red Mountain.

Reply:
You are with out a doubt a Pinnacle of information on LDM, one of only a few on this Forum. I am not here to say that is not Worthy of Great Recognition !
I have mentioned that I believe Waltz had a hobby. Was he out there to find another Mine with his friend/cousin Jacob ?

Quote:
You want us to get into trouble with the reservation authorities?

Reply:
Exactly my Point ! I am not implying that at all ! Why do you think I am still sitting here ? To go out there and look around in a cursory manor, acknowledge I am right, and come back home, does not work.

If the Pima-Maricopa Native Americans are reading this Thread, and have presented it to the Elders, they can deal with it however They choose.

Quote again:
"Hence the burden of proof really is in your corner here."

Reply:
I thought I already did that Roy ! Several ways, several Maps, & the Peralta Heart Stone. Circumstantial Proof offering another alternative for the Peralta-Lost Dutchman Mine. Without recourse, free of charge, for Anyone to do with whatever they can develop out of it Legally with Dignity and Honor !.......J

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

THREAT REMOVED

Once More Your Banned !

you must have mis under stood my reply ...

 

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Blindbowman,

You are still my Friend regardless of what has transpired. I had noticed a change coming from your direction, as I am sure it is a result of this thread. Be assured that I hold no hard feelings, as I hold myself responsible, and rightfully so.

Semper Fidelis, Jack