LDM why you cant get it !

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Hello Beth,

There is no answer publicly available on the Massacre, is why I refer to it as Legend. I would say by fate that '1847' on the (mother) Heart Stone is the last solid reference. I would think that the Peralta Expedition would be aware of an appending attack, as it took many days to gather for it. Would Spanish Priests at this point make the Stone Maps in preparation for it ? Why not ?

Gold (openly) is discovered in Arizona 1860's.
Ft Mc Dowell established Sept 1865.......Jack

 

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[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Jack,

So, your thought is that Peralta's were massacred for their gold 13 years before gold was officially discovered in Arizona?

B

 

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Beth,

Forgive me, my source (1860's) was flawed, not my intent.

I don't believe I ever said or inferred that the Peralta Expedition was Massacred for their Gold ! They were by Legend, Massacred for brazenly Extracting Gold from Hallowed Ground, more than twice ?

Quote:
During the mid 16th century, the Spanish became interested in the area for its potential mineral wealth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chihuahua_(state)

Quote:
Spanish exploration and colonization:
Pedro de Peralta, established the settlement of Santa Fe in 1609 at the foot of the Sangre de Cristo Mountains. As the seat of government of New Mexico since its founding, Santa Fe is the oldest capital city in the United States. Peralta built the Palace of the Governors in 1610.

Essentially, the Spaniards did not want anyone to know their business, Mining Gold for Spain:

Quote:
U.S. Exploration:
Following Lewis and Clark many men started exploring and trapping in the western parts of the United States. Sent out in 1806, Lt. Zebulon Pike's orders were to find the headwaters of the Arkansas and Red rivers. He was to explore the southwestern part of the Louisiana Purchase. In 1807, when Pike and his men crossed into the San Luis Valley of northern New Mexico they were arrested and taken to Santa Fe, and then sent south to Chihuahua where they appeared before the Commandant General Salcedo. After four months of diplomatic negotiations, Pike and his men were returned to the United States, under protest, across the Red River at Natchitoches.[


Under Mexican Territory:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_New_Mexico#Mexican_territory You should also notice the population time reference chart of Spaniards in the area.

Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo 1848 where as Mexican land is exchanged/transferred to the United States: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Territorial_Acquisitions.png

Quote:
Gold mining in Arizona reportedly began in 1774 when Spanish priest Manuel Lopez directed Papago Indians to wash gold from gravel on the flanks of the Quijotoa Mountains, Pima County. Gold mining continued there until 1849, when the Mexican miners were lured away by the California Gold Rush
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_mining_in_the_United_States

Quote:
On January 24, 1848, James Marshall, an employee/partner of Sutter's, found several flakes of gold that began the transformation of California from a sleepy outpost to a bustling center of activity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutter's_Mill


Note: (wiki) is Not the Bible of information, but makes for quick reference. Anyone can post in (wiki) similar to what we are doing here !


Lastly, 1847 on the Heart Stone (Heart itself), the ORO symbol (-u-) between Red Mountain and the trail time-line start point below Peak #1.......Jack

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Excluding most of Wiki answers - and looking up the info separately, a man by the name of Snively, I believe (have not had a chance to look that up, but I will later when I have more time) - was the first person who supposedly found "meaningful" gold in Arizona - around the Gila.

Also, following the Spanish up - as you are doing - would it not put you in New Mexico? (a thought shared by many, but, not necessarily the right time frame).

But - back to Peralta's. In order for the Peralta's to go looking for mineral wealth, there has to have been stories of mineral wealth for them to
follow, which led them to New Mexico (Santa Fe).

They were by Legend, Massacred for brazenly Extracting Gold from Hallowed Ground, more than twice That is trivial - whether they were massacred for gold or for gold from hallowed ground - either way - they were, supposedly, massacred for mining gold, no?
(as per lengend).

B

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Beth and Jack,

Just for the record........One of the first discoverers of gold in Arizona was Antonio de Espejo. Around 1581, I believe on his way to New Mexico, Espejo discovered gold in the Prescott area. It is thought that he later worked those deposits around 1583.

I believe the information can be found in "The Spanish Borderlands" by Herbert E. Bolton.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Beth and Jack,

Just for the record........One of the first discoverers of gold in Arizona was Antonio de Espejo. Around 1581, I believe on his way to New Mexico, Espejo discovered gold in the Prescott area. It is thought that he later worked those deposits around 1583.

I believe the information can be found in "The Spanish Borderlands" by Herbert E. Bolton.

Take care,

Joe

I believe Espejo found silver, not gold. It is the oldest 'lost mine legend' of AZ in my opinion, though there is some evidence that his mine was rediscovered in the late 1800's. Espejo's silver ore samples were so rich that the govt experts in Mexico city were skeptical that it was real.
Roy

 

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Excluding most of Wiki answers - and looking up the info separately, a man by the name of Snively, I believe (have not had a chance to look that up, but I will later when I have more time) - was the first person who supposedly found "meaningful" gold in Arizona - around the Gila.

Also, following the Spanish up - as you are doing - would it not put you in New Mexico? (a thought shared by many, but, not necessarily the right time frame).

But - back to Peralta's. In order for the Peralta's to go looking for mineral wealth, there has to have been stories of mineral wealth for them to
follow, which led them to New Mexico (Santa Fe).

They were by Legend, Massacred for brazenly Extracting Gold from Hallowed Ground, more than twice That is trivial - whether they were massacred for gold or for gold from hallowed ground - either way - they were, supposedly, massacred for mining gold, no?
(as per lengend).

B

No Beth,

It is not trivial, Massacred for gold is much different than Massacred for desecrating Hallowed Ground, repeatedly !

Quote:
So, your thought is that Peralta's were massacred for their gold 13 years before gold was officially discovered in Arizona?

Shall we get back on track here ?

I am implying that the Spanish have been taking gold out of this vast area (North American Southwest) for well over 200 years before the Peralta Heart Stones date of 1847.
But the Spanish were not broadcasting their success to the World.

About the time of the 'Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo 1848' and Sutters Mill (Jan 1848), was the Gold Fever really in effect as we know it in the USA.

My error was to use a source that implicated Arizona discovering gold in the 1860's, as a starting point for USA references.

But let us put this in a nutshell:

Quote:
So, your thought is that Peralta's were massacred for their gold 13 years before gold was officially discovered in Arizona?

Answer: 1847 on the Heart Stone (Heart itself), the ORO symbol (-u-) between Red Mountain and the trail time-line start point below Peak #1.......Jack


And Joe, thank you for your post, that is exactly my point, well before 1860's, and you recall the author, again thank you.

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Roy,

It's true that Espejo found silver, but he also discovered gold near Prescott:


"The Spanish Borderlands:......" by Herbert E. Bolton

Page 174
Sixty men went to the plains to procure meat and tallow and to capture buffalo to domesticate. After a few tilts the plan to tame the ugly beasts was given up, but more than two thousand pounds of tallow were obtained. Oñate went to Moqui, and from there Marcos FarFén led a party to the gold-fields of Arizona which Espejo had discovered, and staked out claims. On their way to join Ohñate, Juan de Zaldívar and fourteen companions were slain at Ácoma, by the rebellious People of the White Rock.

Take care,

Joe

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Joe,

Thanks for that - I was actually referring to the time period of what Jack was referring to - but, you are right - metals were found much earlier.

Jack,

Forgive me - but try to follow my "pee-wee" brain waves, here.

What I'm trying to put together, in your thought process and pictures, is what you think the real meaning of the 1847 - what you think it refers to - and how you arrived at the conclusion - and managed to put it together with the area that you are referring to.

Really, I have read everything you have posted - and, regardless of when gold was discovered - or by whom - I just do not see how you put together the 1847, with the Peralta's being massacred - and, frankly - the place - Red Mountain.

Sorry - if you think that is "off the thread", I'll just not say anything else.

Beth

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

JackH wrote

And Joe, thank you for your post, that is exactly my point, well before 1860's, and you recall the author, again thank you.

The source cited by our mutual amigo Joe, is erroneous about the gold discovery. <Bolton, The Spanish Borderlands, pp 174>

Indians told Espejo about the fabled lake of gold found further west. Although Espejo never found the lake of gold, he did extract silver ore from several regional locations that produced high-grade silver.

http://www.americanjourneys.org/aj-008/summary/index.asp
<cites Espejo's own published account>

All of the other sources I could locate, indicate that Espejo found silver, not gold. I don't have much on Farfan as to what sort of claims he laid.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Roy,

There is also this from "Dictionary of American History", page 104:

"In 1583, Antonio de Espejo seems to have worked gold deposits near Prescott".

It may be that both of these sources are wrong, but I have conceded that Espejo also found Silver. He came from a mining background and was also searching for gold.

I admit that I am partial to Bolton as a reliable source.

Espejo not finding the "lake of gold" is somewhat different than his not finding gold fields in Arizona or, more specifically, gold deposits in the Prescott area.

Take care,

Joe

 

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Joe,

Thanks for that - I was actually referring to the time period of what Jack was referring to - but, you are right - metals were found much earlier.

Jack,

Forgive me - but try to follow my "pee-wee" brain waves, here.

What I'm trying to put together, in your thought process and pictures, is what you think the real meaning of the 1847 - what you think it refers to - and how you arrived at the conclusion - May I ask - I've looked, but can't seem to find it, if you have posted it - when do you think the massacre occurred? If you have posted it
already, I apologize, but, cannot seem to find it.

Really, I have read everything you have posted - and, regardless of when gold was discovered - or by whom - I just do not see how you put together the 1847, with the Peralta's being massacred - and, frankly - the place - Red Mountain.

Sorry - if you think that is "off the thread", I'll just not say anything else.

Beth

Beth,

There is one Major Difference between most on this site and myself, My First Post. I already know where it is, the rest of you are still searching !

I have Nothing to Hide ! All I had to do is Prove Circumstantially that I can offer another alternative. There are mistakes early in this thread which should be left alone to show the positive course of direction.

I have not asked for any exchange of information to prove my Theory, other than using a question mark at the end of my explanations.

I have used several Maps that have always been at everyone's disposal since the beginning of Time, and Explicitly, Definitively proved with more clarity exactly where it is, using your Maps, my imagery.

I have Deciphered the Heart Stone Perfectly and have left out only that which the finder will see Clearly that there is no doubt.

Quote:
I just do not see how you put together the 1847, with the Peralta's being massacred

My feelings on the Heart Stone, and I repeat: [[/quote]

Hello Beth,

There is no answer publicly available on the Massacre, is why I refer to it as Legend. I would say by fate that '1847' on the (mother) Heart Stone is the last solid reference. I would think that the Peralta Expedition would be aware of an appending attack, as it took many days to gather for it. Would Spanish Priests at this point make the Stone Maps in preparation for it ? Why not ?

Gold (openly) is discovered in Arizona 1860's.
Ft Mc Dowell established Sept 1865.......Jack

Quote:
and how you arrived at the conclusion
The Knife's upper guard, in Spanish "Guardia Urbano." That put it all together, the 4 Peaks standing along side of each other. An upside down #2 would have been above the upside down 1. Arrow pointing below 1, another arrow pointing below first peak of image carved of the 4 Peaks, I was Locked On. The rest has already been explained in a recent post.

Personal assessment:
I believe only the Heart Stone's were made at Red Mountain. It appears that the Peralta Stones are not all made of the same rock material. They are a record and the stones were carved in the area in which the stone was found.

Quote:
and, frankly - the place - Red Mountain

Very early in this thread I had mentioned there is too much information out there on LDM. My approach was not to get lost in all that. I also said I don't really care if you have been looking for it for 30 years ! If you haven't found it by now, you are looking in the Wrong Place ! (I must include, You may have found something, but if you found the Peralta/LDM you would not be here.)

I also said, Peralta made a wide sweep moving north through the Superstitions, his last stop Red Mountain. (Although some of you said there were signs of his elsewere above the Salt. Good for you, you did your homework, maybe too much of it.)

Red Mountain offered all the answers, all I had to do is Display it.

I AM GOING ON RECORD HERE ! (Whether or not anyone believes or fails to understand the information I have provided.)

No person here or elsewhere, other than what information is readily available, has given me any information to lead me to Red Mountain, other than the encouragement that someone before me who had written a book on Red Mountain as believing it is here as well (thank you). I have not read the book, and don't really think that is an issue with the information I have provided that has most always been at everyone's disposal.

As far as I am aware, there is only one Priest Rock. It is centered low in this photo. Is there a Relationship between this Rock and the Spanish priests who I believe were with Peralta, and carved the Heart Stones there ? I think so. The Heart Stone was carved in a reference that the Salt is at the top. It is possible to assume the carvers were in close to Red Mountain in a Mining Camp area, the Salt giving a solid border from their view looking south, everything else was up hill in the opposite direction.

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

JackH wrote

And Joe, thank you for your post, that is exactly my point, well before 1860's, and you recall the author, again thank you.

The source cited by our mutual amigo Joe, is erroneous about the gold discovery. <Bolton, The Spanish Borderlands, pp 174>

Indians told Espejo about the fabled lake of gold found further west. Although Espejo never found the lake of gold, he did extract silver ore from several regional locations that produced high-grade silver.

http://www.americanjourneys.org/aj-008/summary/index.asp
<cites Espejo's own published account>

All of the other sources I could locate, indicate that Espejo found silver, not gold. I don't have much on Farfan as to what sort of claims he laid.
Oroblanco

Roy,

Not sure why you went to the quote you posted, but it does not refute the two quotes that I posted.

Espejo had a number of reasons for making that trip. Firsrt, it was a rescue trip. Second, he was going to search for the lake of gold and third he was going to seek any mineral deposits that might be on his path to and from New Mexico.

Are you saying I am in error, or my sources?

We can add this story (The Lost Spanish Mine of Sycamore Canyon) to the mix:

http://www.thegeozone.com/treasure/arizona/tales/az009a.jsp

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Hola amigos,

Joe R wrote

Roy,

Not sure why you went to the quote you posted, but it does not refute the two quotes that I posted.

Espejo had a number of reasons for making that trip. Firsrt, it was a rescue trip. Second, he was going to search for the lake of gold and third he was going to seek any mineral deposits that might be on his path to and from New Mexico.

Are you saying I am in error, or my sources?

We can add this story (The Lost Spanish Mine of Sycamore Canyon) to the mix:

http://www.thegeozone.com/treasure/arizona/tales/az009a.jsp

Take care,

I think that the error was Bolton's, not yours; it is an easy step to follow too - Espejo went in search of the 'lake of gold' and returned having 'found rich mines' one would easily conclude that he had found gold rather than silver. I very much like Bolton as a source but we all make mistakes once in a while.

"Having accomplished his first purpose, Espejo determined to explore the unknown country beyond. After visiting several of the neighbouring pueblos he crossed over to the Zuni, near the present Arizona line, where he found three Christian Indians of Coronado's earlier expedition. Here several of the party decided to return, and with only nine soldiers and a party of Indians he pushed on to the Hopi (Moqui) villages in northern Arizona, where he met a friendly reception and was given guides to a mountain country farther on — apparently some fifty miles northward from the site of Prescott — where he procured some rich specimens of silver ore. Returning to the Rio Grande, he visited several other pueblos farther up the river and then went over to the Pecos, noting other mines by the way. In consequence of the threatening attitude of the Tanos tribe he finally decided to return to Mexico, arriving at his starting-point in September, 1583, having accomplished, without bloodshed and with a handful of men, as great results as had been obtained by Coronado with a whole army and at the cost of an exterminating warfare upon the Indians. He soon afterwards submitted a report, with a map of the regions explored, but his later proposition to organize a colonizing expedition was defeated by the jealously of the viceroy."
http://wwww.newadvent.org/cathen/05541a.htm

identical verbatim
http://www.cyclopediabritannica.net/index.php/Antonio_Espejo

Also see <among several>
West American History vol 17, (Bancroft) pp 81-82, 346

No major point of great importance, and as far as the lost Spanish mine of Sycamore canyon, we do not even know what century it was supposed to happen; the author of the geozone article (good as it is) has assigned the discovery to Espejo and dates the return to 1720, we do not have documentation to prove this theory as far as I know.

JackH wrote

I have not asked for any exchange of information to prove my Theory, other than using a question mark at the end of my explanations.

So you really are just stating your theory and what proof you have, and do not wish to discuss any questions about it? You want us to confirm and/or congratulate your discovery, but not question or have any doubts? I do not understand your position on this, but it is not that important. It is an interesting theory, sorry I have to say that I remain (respectfully) un-convinced.
Oroblanco

 

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Quote:
So you really are just stating your theory and what proof you have, and do not wish to discuss any questions about it? You want us to confirm and/or congratulate your discovery, but not question or have any doubts? I do not understand your position on this, but it is not that important. It is an interesting theory, sorry I have to say that I remain (respectfully) un-convinced.
Oroblanco

Roy,

My biggest problem in this Forum is you only get to read @ 60% of what I have placed inside this little box. The other 40% has been removed or rewritten.

The good people inside this thread LDM, are on constant watch for double meanings. I'm really not that sharp, so I have to be careful not to extend the opportunity to do so.

I cover a lot of ground, but eventually don't accomplish much during the course of the day. Repeating myself drives me up a wall, I could never have been an educator.

The Fact that anyone here would ask me a question, is the Greatest form of Flattery. I feel most of those who have asked questions are of Empire State Building status, while I am still down here with the Lego's.

Temperament is not my greatest virtue. I am experiencing a heavy withdrawl with the weather here in Pennsylvania. As I own one of the finest Harley-Davidson's ever offered, @ 1/500 worldwide, and we are getting as much as 10" of snow in the area tonight. And more next week into April. (Soon, I will leave this Forum, and maybe That is the Problem.) I put 30,000+ miles on this bike in 4 seasons, and we only get to ride 6-7 months here.

Anyway:
I have recently discovered evidence (?) by satellite imagery, that leads me to confirm that the Legend of the Level of Richness of the Vein of our Subject is as Grand as we have been lead to believe. And that leads to a whole other Revelation of Theory surrounding Red Mountain.

I would be Honored if you ask, I feel my time is limited in answering your questions in a timely order.......Jack

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Roy,

I think you are probably correct about Espejo. Nice call.

Take care,

Joe

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

If you read the full translation that Bolton has of Espejo's account - you will know that Espejo found ore - silver and antimony - and HEARD about gold, but never saw it for himself.

A little quote from Bolton's translation of Espejo's report:

We found many different tongues among the natives of those provinces, different
modes of dress, and different customs. That which we saw and of which I
write gives but an inkling of what actually exists in those provinces, for in
travelling through them we heard of large settlements, very fertile lands, silver
mines, gold, and better governed peoples.

As we saw, dealt with, and heard of large settlements, and as our numbers were
few, and as some of my companions were afraid to continue further, we did not
explore more than what I have stated

Notice, it is what he "heard".


Now, the "things he had stated" were all silver and antimony.

Another quote:

Their food is similar to that of the other provinces mentioned, except that here
we found no turkeys. A chief and some other Indians told us here that they had
heard of the lake where the gold treasure is and declared that it was neither
greater nor less than what those of the preceding provinces had said. during
the six days that we remained there we visited the pueblos of the province.

Thinking that these Indians were frindly toward us, I left five of my companions
with them in their pueblos, in order that they might return to the province of Amj
with the baggage
With the four others whom I took with me I went directly west for forty-five leagues,
in search of some rich mines there of which they told me, with guides whom
they furnished me in this province to take me to them. I found them, and with
my own hands I extracted ore from them, said by those who know to be very
rich and to contain much silver

So, as you can see, all through Bolton's translation, Espejo never said he found gold.

Beth

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Hi Beth,

What you say is true......but why do you suppose that Bolton reversed himself with this passage from
Borderlands?

"Sixty men went to the plains to procure meat and tallow and to capture buffalo to domesticate. After a few tilts the plan to tame the ugly beasts was given up, but more than two thousand pounds of tallow were obtained. Oñate went to Moqui, and from there Marcos FarFén led a party to the gold-fields of Arizona which Espejo had discovered, and staked out claims. On their way to join Ohñate, Juan de Zaldívar and fourteen companions were slain at Ácoma, by the rebellious People of the White Rock."

Seems like a pretty definitive statement.

Take care,

Joe

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Joe,

First - let me say that I worked so hard typing those passages, I just had to post it after all the "weeping eyes" -

The answer to your question is: I really don't know.

I do know, somewhere, and I cannot find where right off-hand, he also said that Espejo found "a trace of gold" - so, it is a little befuddling.

I lean towards Bolton's translation of Espejo's reports. I have wondered in the past - if some of it was just Espejo trying to get back into the
good graces of the authorities - since he was a wanted man.

Beth

 

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Quote:
I found them, and with
my own hands I extracted ore from them, said by those who know to be very
rich and to contain much silver

In his hands he has ore, why does he have to make reference twice: 1) very rich, 2) and to contain much silver

Very rich and to contain much silver. The key word is (and) as in Also.

Based on 1840's values, silver $1.29 oz, gold $20 oz http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_silver_ratios#Silver_price

So you're sitting in a Cantina in New Mexico, your grub stake has about run out. This notable guy walks in and proclaims he is on a trail to recover Gold, who wants to come with me ? And we're going to get Fat while we're at it !

Lets include this scenario to that of Silver. Which one will you sign up with ? Which one do you think anyone is going to sign up with ?

How many signed up in either Venture previously mentioned ? Many Silver minded volunteers ?

Remember, you have to haul Silver back, if not processed, is it really worth it ?

Those in the past who have said, "I am going out to seek my Fortune !" Who was thinking Silver ? (although some did, others by accident)

Note: providing this all fits within the translation.......J