LDM why you cant get it !

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Jose,

Gawd, you should have SEEN some of the vehicles.

I'll put up a picture or two - everyone already knows its there!!

I think its too late...........................

Beth

 

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[Springfield]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

.... Side thingie, in that type of country where would 'you' look for rich Au / Ag veins? Myself I would tend to look for deep, vertically faulted areas. Is the indicated area where you would look or expect a rich vein to occur?

Don Jose de La Mancha

Well, as they say, "Gold is where you find it". Back in the day, they looked for surface sign, anywhere and everywhere. When they found it, they worked it until it quit or it was too difficult to recover. Then they moved on to the next spot.

If there's any truth to this lost mine legend, the mine was allegedly located where 'no prospector would look'. Who knows? It's obviously had folks guessing for quite a while.

 

[EE THr]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

If there's any truth to this lost mine legend, the mine was allegedly located where 'no prospector would look'.

Which always makes me wonder who the heck decided to look there in the first place!

8)

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Morning my friend springfield first \_ _/ morning coffee. I seem to remember that he said that you could drive a ?? horse, mule, or burros over it and not see it. This tends to make me think of a flat area, possibly near a trail. He also mentioned that a rider, a cowboy would never see it, this again tends to a flat area, not country such as just shown.

Quien sabe ? Who nows.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Loke]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Me - I'm still puzzled as to why Rhiney and Julia entered from the _east_. Surely, if it's anywhere near the NE-part (as many seem to believe), sending them along the Salt to the Tortilla would seem to be a much better way of getting there ? No?
And - you don't get any nearer to the origin than the two of them ... even if they hadn't paid sufficient attention, you would think that they would at least get that part right ...

 

[EE THr]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Loke---

I've wondered about that also.

I think the legend goes, that Waltz told them, just before he died, the story of how he found his mine. That story includes the Mexicans giving him their directions to get to it from the south.

I think they took the wrong canyon, though, east of where the directions said, and got stalled way south of the target.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

After Waltz first died - as the story goes - Holmes went to Hidden Spring. (also heard Hidden Water) Wonder why.

Beth

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Beth - I've never been a big believer in the Holme's side of the LDM story, but I know I've seen you post this about Hidden Spring/Hidden Water before as far as being where Dick Holme's first went.

Can you tell me where that story comes from?

Thanks

 

[Loke]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Loke---

I've wondered about that also.

I think the legend goes, that Waltz told them, just before he died, the story of how he found his mine. That story includes the Mexicans giving him their directions to get to it from the south.

I think they took the wrong canyon, though, east of where the directions said, and got stalled way south of the target.

But if that's the case - would he not tell them to start from the Bark-ranch? That's were he was going to take them before he took ill ...
Or (and please correct me if I'm wrong) - did the Bark ranch not exist when the Mexicans were doing their mining?
If so - yes, then it might be that he told them how _he_ found the mine ... and that's why they started where they did (albeit getting the 'wrong end of the stick')

I haven't any topos infront of me at the moment - can someone please enlighten me as to where "Hidden Water/Spring" is? (I'm still trying to learn all the old placenames)

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Cub,

You test my memory, that's for sure! I have been taking notes on the LDM for 30 years or so. (and all put into notebooks, because I cannot always trust my memory).

But - in this case, I believe it came from Holmes timing of going out to Hidden Spring/Water - and finding the skull with the chain around the neck. This happened right after Waltz's death - and I've always wondered what he was doing there. This same skull is claimed to be Peter
Backen and was in Doc Jone's store for many years, on a shelf.

If I had directions to a multi-million dollar mine - I would have been following the directions given to me, and probably not come back out until I found it and took all I could carry So, how did he come to go THERE?

Beth


By the way ----- don't confuse the Holmes Manuscript with Holme's actions. What you do tells far more than what you write. This was not a part of the Manuscript.

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Beth - if you can come across the story outside of the Holme's Manuscript that tells of the timing when Dick went to Hidden Springs/Water and found the skeleton, that would be great. Like I said, I've never paid all that much attention to the Holme's side, so the only stuff I've seen in print in that area comes from Dr. Glover's 2 books.

I know in the Holme's Manuscript it has Dick spending 5 years searching the Superstitions before he decides to go to Hidden Springs/Water to try to verify Waltz's story about killing his "nephew."

If Dick Holme's really did go there first, could an argument be made that Hidden Springs/Water is one of the last places he supposedly trailed Waltz to before being spotted, so maybe he just thought he'd start there and hope he was close enough to locate it?

 

[somehiker]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Loke:

Cottonwood Creek and Hidden Water on 1907 Topo
Above present day location of Canyon Lake

Regards:SH.

ps:...for Paul:
..you once questioned the location of Cottonwood Canyon?
..seems a possibility that Cottonwood Creek would follow a canyon by the same name in 1907.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

If Dick Holme's really did go there first, could an argument be made that Hidden Springs/Water is one of the last places he supposedly trailed Waltz to before being spotted, so maybe he just thought he'd start there and hope he was close enough to locate it?

That would be my take on it.

I know it is in Helen Corbin's first book - but, I know I have something on it before that. I will have to scour my stuff to see where I first came up with that.

Of course, it was called "Aqua Encondido".

Beth

 

[EE THr]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Mrs. O---

Are Hidden Springs and Hidden Water, two different places? Or just different names for the same place?

And is the place shown on the topo above, the place you are referring to?

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Same place. It is just a slightly different translation from Aqua Escondida. Literally translated, it is actually, Hidden Water.

Beth

 

[Loke]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

@somehiker,
Thank you! Now I see it I realized I didn't have it on my maps ...

 

[EE THr]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

But if that's the case - would he not tell them to start from the Bark-ranch? That's were he was going to take them before he took ill ...

Yeah, it isn't very logical.

Maybe he didn't really give them enough info about the Bark Ranch route, for them to be able to find it by going that way.

But suppose they got to talking, and as would seem natural, asked him, "How the heck did you find that mine, anyway?" And so he told them the story about the Mexicans.

Then he died somewhat unexpectedly, before he could explain the best route, from the North, in enough detail for it to be useful.

One interesting thing about it is, on the maps marked "Julia," it does show "the spot" to be way up North, almost to the Salt River. And it shows lots of stuff on the South end, which would be totally unnecessary to plot, if they had known a good route, with landmarks, that went directly from Tortilla Flat.

So, if the map is authentic, or even close to it, then Julia felt that those southern landmarks were important, for some reason. And that kind of corroborates the southern entrance as being their choice of routes, for whatever reasons.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

I know there is a lot of controversy over the whole story.

Some say that Holmes went there to verify that he had buried his nephew there (as per what "Wolz" supposedly told him). Some say Holmes didn't find it at all - that Dan Frank dug up the skull.

Some say that there were 2 Dr. Jones - and it was "little" Jones that ended up with the skull. One of the Dr. Jones owned the ranch that the skull was on - some say. (Hidden Water Ranch). Now, that was, again supposedly, before 1895, so, if the skull was found, it was found before then, which means Holmes didn't look for it for at least 5 years, as Holmes also said.

There are as many stories about it as there are theories of who the skull belonged to.

Beth

 

[EE THr]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

There are as many stories about it as there are theories of who the skull belonged to.

That's what I like about the "maps approach." At least they don't continually change over the years!

But they will always have the "dime-a-dozen" problem....

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Loke:

Cottonwood Creek and Hidden Water on 1907 Topo
Above present day location of Canyon Lake

Regards:SH.

ps:...for Paul:
..you once questioned the location of Cottonwood Canyon?
..seems a possibility that Cottonwood Creek would follow a canyon by the same name in 1907.

Thanks Wayne - Tom Kollenborn told me about that Cottonwood Canyon not long after I asked about it. I knew about it being N of the Salt River, but for some reason I had it in my head that there was another canyon in the Superstitions known as Cottonwood Canyon other than the one on the S side of Tortilla Mt. and slightly N of Peter's Mesa. I must have imagined that (or gotten the idea confused with Willow Spring) because I haven't found the reference anywhere.

How was your trip last month? Hope you had a good time.