LDM why you cant get it !

[Oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Ancientones wrote

I decided to stay out of the mine.

Your caution is wise, yet you have encouraged others to do so? I am a bit confused on this point. How can you be sure that this is in fact a mine, and not another old prospect hole dug by earlier Dutch-hunters? If you feel the mine is so dangerous as to be unsafe to enter, do you advise others to likewise stay out of it, or do you suggest they should enter?

Ancientones also wrote

From Tortilla Flat, take the Tortilla trail into Tortilla Wash, up the wash to Peters Canyon.

Follow Tortilla Wash to Peters Canyon? Am I reading your direction correctly here?

As to the rules about removing ore, there are no rules about shooting photos of an ore vein, and this would have gone some ways to help support your story. Do you have photos of the ore vein, that you can share?

Thank you for your reply, I look forward to your answers.
Oroblanco

 

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[EE THr]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

ancientones---

If you really have found the LDM, it's really, really, too bad that you are starting your story out just like every other guy who didn't find it, has.

To wit, paraphrasing the conglomerate: "I studied real hard (states number of years), and was smarter than everyone else (who also studied it real hard, for the same or longer time) before me. When I knew I had it, I actually went there. It was real rough going (naming various terrible obstacles and dangers), but I finally found it.

"It's obvious that this is real thing, because all the clues match. I want to announce that I was the one that found it, and I don't want anyone else trying to weasel in on it. I can't get permission to dig, though, so I can't prove it. There were plenty of pictures taken, so you can believe me that this is really it.

"But I'm not posting any pictures, except some meaningless stuff on the trail along the way. But you know I was there, because of the horrible time I had getting there, and all the hard work that I put into studying it before hand.

"I didn't do it for money, or recognition, but you dang well better believe that I was the one who found it!"

I like the part where you assure everyone that your party took pictures inside the mine, but you don't want anyone to know that you did. Right.

Sigh....

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Ok - I'm not as..........gentle as Roy - I am confused by your directions - well, I'm either confused or you are trying to blow smoke up someone's butt (probably I'm confused by your directions).

Tortilla Flat is where the store is. Is that where you are talking about starting out? Or are you talking about starting out at the Tortilla RANCH parking lot?

I'm putting some pics up here, taken this past year - of the parking lot - and on the trail - and of part of Tortilla Creek, heading towards Peter's Trail.

Hiking is normally done IN the creekbed, but then again, its usually not got lots of water in it. Now, there are some places later on down that trail, after you get onto Peter's Trail, where you can either bear left - or slightly right, (there is remnants of an old building/wall there), you go down a real rocky slippery hill, and when you get down to the bottom, you hop around the trail through some rocks, and THEN, with the trail bearing slightly left, you are climbing full big arse rocks - hands and knees type crawling up - if you should decide to go that direction.

I guess the main part of my confusion is exactly WHERE you are starting out.

Thanks,

Beth

 

[ancientones]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Oroblanco,
My claim is the location of this mine based on all the clues. I am not a miner to know if the shaft is safe, that is why I tried to get
assistance from Jim. Would I like to know if gold is in there? Sure, but that has no bearing on all the clues leading to this site. I leave that to those that are after the gold. I have some post and a few pics in the DUSA forum, History-Legends and Lore of the Sups., Sombrero Mt. You do not have to log in to read the post. Jims responses are well worth reading as well.

Sigh,
As for those in my group, I have NOT stated they went into the mine. I have stated I did not go into the mine. Yes, my story is like many others and their claims are just as detailed as mine. If you are interested or not is up to you.

Beth,
East of the Tortilla Flat Bar is a parking lot, this is the starting point. There is a trail that goes over the hill East into Tortilla Wash. Hike up Tortilla Wash(East) to Peters Canyon. Watch for the stacks of rocks(3, one on top of the other) as they show the easiest ways. As you approach Peters Canyon, there is a stack(rocks) on the right which allows you to cut over a low flat into Peters. Saves you a couple hundred yards.
Snakes are my biggest concern this time of year.

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Ancientones wrote

Oroblanco,
My claim is the location of this mine based on all the clues. I am not a miner to know if the shaft is safe, that is why I tried to get
assistance from Jim. Would I like to know if gold is in there? Sure, but that has no bearing on all the clues leading to this site. I leave that to those that are after the gold. I have some post and a few pics in the DUSA forum, History-Legends and Lore of the Sups., Sombrero Mt. You do not have to log in to read the post. Jims responses are well worth reading as well.

The gold has no bearing on whether this is a lost gold mine? Are you saying that the gold really is not of any issue, the clues are what matters? If that is the case, then there are at least 20 Lost Dutchman mines already found, in a shotgun pattern around Weavers Needle. The whole story is about a lost gold mine amigo, notice that word -gold- in there; without that yellow metal it is still an interesting story and all that but I seriously doubt that many people would be the least interested. There are numerous other mysteries of the area and few people expend a moment of their time on them.

I am not recommending to anyone to go climbing into every old mine or cave they find, far from it; they can be extremely dangerous and if the mine is currently held under a mining claim could even be illegal as a type of trespass. This does not prevent you from taking photographs.

If my skepticism has offended you, I offer my apologies for no offense is intended. I had hoped that you would have some photos you could share, which would tend to support the story you presented. My objections to your proposed route are due to the recent deaths and disappearances in the Superstitions, in the one case it is known that the persons were using satellite images for a map and mistook a stream bed for a trail. People read what we say here and can make very dangerous mistakes which is why I recommended (and still do) that hikers use the existing trails to get where they want to go, not cut through cross country.

Good luck and good hunting Ancientones and everyone reading this, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Ancientones; what about any tailings? Did you see any bits of ore anywhere around the entrance to the mine? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Are you talking about the little parking lot at Apache Lake Canyon? (the one that has the cinderblock thing there?) Or the one where the creek goes across the road and you go up and there is a small dam there? (right up from the store)?

Thanks,

Beth


I wanted to make the point, also, that, this past year - that whole area was flooded - you would not do too well hiking it. It was worse than this a week earlier.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Is this the way you are talking about?

B

 

[Springfield]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

.... People read what we say here and can make very dangerous mistakes which is why I recommended (and still do) that hikers use the existing trails to get where they want to go, not cut through cross country.....

Decent rule of thumb for 'tourists' or first time lay-of-the-landers.

However, my experience has shown me repeatedly that you'll never find anything 'new' on a trail. Nearly all my discoveries have been off-trail, many by my dog. In fact, 'wandering aimlessly' yields by far the most rewards (old camps - mining/logging/military, etc., old mines, prospects, claim corners/papers, ruins - native/settler/miner/hippie, battle sites, bridges, petroglyphs, caves, roads, trails, waterfalls, swimming pools, hot springs, pot farms, cut trees, graves, homesteads, corrals, discarded junk (car bodies, corregated roofing, glass, steam boilers, tack, tools, clothing, wire, glass, fire safe, machinery parts, ammunition brass, wagons, did I mention glass?) and on and on. Most/all of this stuff won't be found on a hiker's trail (or on a map either, for that matter). It helps to be prepared, have plenty of experience and the ability to use map and compass too. Oh, and a gps is nice.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Springfield,

I hear ya - but, then again - I'm assuming you knew how you got there and how to get back.

Many people have a GPS in their cars - its not for finding their house - its for going somewhere that they are not too sure how to get there.
Before that - and even now - if you haven't been somewhere before - and even if you have - you use a map - or someone's directions to get you to their "starting" point.

I never hit the mountains, nor any other trip, without a map - we have spent a small fortune in topo's. And so do others - and yet, even with
exact directions like the ones in HikeArizona - we still have people missing out there. They are usually novices, and a map will not tell you that
you didn't bring enough water, will not pick you up off the ledge you fell down to - and on and on and on.

Roy's concern, and mine - is for those folks.

Oh, and by the way.......................one of our BEST finds was from a spot that many people hike, stop at and look around.

Beth

 

[ancientones]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Beth,
I have attached a google map that shows the route. You can also use a topo, but I like google. I have also identified
the 3 'tuff' spots. As for the water...A few weeks after rains the washes are flowing. Tortilla has the majority of water,
not Peters. You may have to cross back and forth on Tortilla, but can stay dry. I take 'water tablets' and some bottled water.
Peters flows a good part of the year and saves you from having to haul so much, if you are comfortable with the tablets.

 

[ancientones]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

From the parking lot East of Tortilla Flat Bar, take the trail East into Tortilla Wash, up the wash to Peters Canyon. There are 'stacks' of 3 rocks that have been placed along the Washes(Totrtilla and Peters) that show the best way. As you start up Peters Canyon, on the Left a stack of rocks shows the trail around the Large Boulders in Peters Canyon. The trail is against the rock wall on the left. Continue up to Peters Cave and the Falls. About 75 ft. before the Falls, there is a 10 ft. high ledge on the Right. A 2 ft. rock is leaning against this wall. By stepping on this rock you can gain the lift needed to get on top of the ledge. The ledge passes to the Right of the Falls. About 100 yds. past the falls there is a 'Triangle' shaped boulder blocking the wash. At the start of the pool the triangle rock is in there is a ledge on the Left, about 15 ft. at highest point, that gets you past this pool/rock. The rest of the way to the site has no obstacles, just boulders to jump across and a few pools.
You do not need a rope and you can get by these with no help, although a partner makes is easier. It is a tuff hike, that is why I advised 'moderate to extreme'. Most washes in Az. are a risk during flash flood and I would hope those taking the hike are aware.

 

[ancientones]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Oroblanco,
My claim is this is the Sombrero/Lost Dutchman Mine. To prove this is THE mine, without a doubt, is impossible for one person to do.
Pictures will be called fakes, Ore will be stated as coming from a cache or fell off a burro. You also must assume that no one else HAS
found it in the last 100 years and mined it. I also know that Mexicans from Mexico made several trips into the Mtns. in the late 40's
and early 50's. I encourage you to read Mexican newspapers about this mine/story.
As for around Weavers Needle, I know that is where almost everyone looking for this mine has searched. I have read few stories that
identify a few clues. I can place most all the clues at this site, as well as the Mexican Sombrero sketch map(which can be matched with
google) and the 2 washes clue obtained by Ruth from the Mexicans who mined it. He was looking for this place because he knew it would lead to the mine. This is the junction of Tortilla and Peters and fits the clue as well. If you go to this hill you will see the mule trail, marker stones, brush symbols, cut cactus. Another Dutch hunter(Tom Kollenborns trick to the trail map) shows the mule trail to the top of this hill.
He then advises he could not locate any markers and shows the trail going off the hill to the NW, a steep drop that no mule could ever go down(or up). Why would a mule trail go to the top of the hill and stop? This is one mile from Tortilla Flat and a 1 1/2 hour hike. If you go there and see what I have you will know they are there for a reason. As for people being lost, most take off into the Mtns. with no way anyone could find them. Tortilla Wash to Peters, Peters to the site. Hard to get lost and anyone looking for you knows the route, unless you wander off.
ancientones

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

ancientones,

Boy, if I had a nickel for every time I heard that................... I'd be rich.


Beth

 

[ancientones]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

I do not have a close up of the tailings but this is the location.

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

ancientones - how close have you personally gotten to your mine entrance? Enough that you can post clear photos of it going into the rock?

And out of curiosity, if you haven't been close to the mine entrance, why not and how do you know it really is a mine and not a cave or just natural opening that goes in a couple feet and that's all?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Good morning: Beth you blew it with the picture of the Tortilla road, now you will be saturated wth calif off roaders.

Old one, May I ask why you put the tailings so far from the mine and in such a labor intensive situation?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[ky.rebel]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

I also wondered why the tailings were so far away from the mine,and it looks like it would be a lot of work to get them there. course I ain't the sharpest knife in the drawer either. Best of luck in all your endevors. fred

 

[Springfield]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Good morning: Beth you blew it with the picture of the Tortilla road, now you will be saturated wth calif off roaders.

Old one, May I ask why you put the tailings so far from the mine and in such a labor intensive situation?

Don Jose de La Mancha

From the looks of things in the picture, this would be an ideal spot to hide the waste rock - possibly not visible from anywhere nearby. Since a dump is the easiest way to locate a mine, hiding it provides security. You can also scatter the waste downhill, but a shrewd eye might detect it. Tough job, but a logical effort if you are trying to stay under the radar. Flip side of the coin: maybe the Apaches, not the miners, hid the dump.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

G'afternoon springfield. perhaps, perhaps, but human nature would preclude such an operation. they could just as easily (??) placed their tailing's much nearer to the workings, assuming they are where indicated, and be even less noticeable, with far less work.

However to the point, take a closer look at the area were the mine is indicated, that is some rough, broken up country, most of which would require two sets of hands to pass through, if it were possible. Plenty of areas to hide a significant amount of tailing's instead of a flat open area such as is indicated.

According to the legend, the ore was extremely rich and shouldn't have a tremendous amount of tailing's compared to the gold. In such case a nearby area, again would be more logical.

I know that is what ORO would do, since he is almost as lazy as I am

Side thingie, in that type of country where would 'you' look for rich Au / Ag veins? Myself I would tend to look for deep, vertically faulted areas. Is the indicated area where you would look or expect a rich vein to occur?

Don Jose de La Mancha