LDM why you cant get it !

[cactusjumper]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Janiece,

This is a quote of a post by "Aurum" (Kraig Roberts) from another forum, now deflunct:

"On June 1, 1884, Lora Ann Amelia Starr was born in the Tonto Basin in the home of Amanda Faucett Sanders. This little girl was the daughter of Charles and Mary (Donovan) Starr(ar). My great aunt knew Lora Ann Starr who often attended the Pioneer Days celebrations held in Phoenix every April to honor the Arizona Pioneer families. I looked up her name in my aunt's files last night and found her birth announcement and notes on her pioneer family which includes Jacob, Andrew, Daniel, Lorenz and Charles Starrar. She stated her grandfather changed their name to Starr but she didn't know why. Lora Ann Starr married a man named Brady who died and later she was married to a man named Conway. She had 4 children whose descendants still live in the Tonto Basin, Pleasant Valley and Globe areas.

Now that that mystery is solved it still leaves the mystery of Andrew Satrrar's son's."
______________________________________________________

Few people know the real history of this part of Arizona like Kraig Roberts, but I would like to see some kind of verifiable evidence for the existence of Sarah (Bertie) Roberts, in the era mentioned, before I accept this story as legitimate. That would include the "German Notes".

This is where I first heard the story of how Starrar got changed to Star.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Help!! How about a death certificate - did you find one of them for Andrew Starar/Starr


Beth

 

[Springfield]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

..... She stated her grandfather changed their name to Starr but she didn't know why. ....Now that that mystery is solved .....

Well, not exactly. The question would be 'why did these guys keep changing their names?'

 

[Gossamer]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

..... She stated her grandfather changed their name to Starr but she didn't know why. ....Now that that mystery is solved .....

Well, not exactly. The question would be 'why did these guys keep changing their names?'

I think this mystery, is clear as mud.

Help!! How about a death certificate - did you find one of them for Andrew Starar/Starr
Beth

Beth, I have spent some considerable time on this, and I have nothing, there was an Andrew Starr that died in Iowa.... but nothing fits into this crazy puzzle. It is in part why I wanted to step away and just read.

One thing is absolutely true, that starting with Jacob Waltz/Walz/or whatever... a cottage industry started around this LDM mystery.
I've read in old newspapers where the (and this is widely known) "Don's" would have a yearly gathering to 'hunt' the mine. And they benefited from this event with tourism.
Also, that in the 40s two men claimed to have found a cavern where they believed the Peralta's would have smelted or broken down ore.
They believed they were one step closer to finding the Dutchman.
I believe that Waltz did find a cache (at the least) of gold, there is another news story reporting that 2 Dutchmen, Jacob Waltz and Jacob Weisser were given the map by the 'last' Peralta. (Juan Peralta is on the same 1880 census of AZ Territory, Phoenix)
Some reports say that Waltz went to the Peralta home and offered half of what they would find to Peralta, and other stories say that Waltz saved a Peralta in a bar fight or other nonsense.
Same report, stated that Waltz and Weisser were mining and that Waltz went into town for supplies, only to come back to find partner Weisser murdered by the (con veinant or not) Apaches. And that he 'swore never to go back to the mine'.
Report: Independent Press-Telegram (Long Beach, CA) January 31, 1954, right under the story about Jesse James.
One thing I am certain, Waltz bleed that story for all its worth, and I believe used it to get attention (and why not) and to get someone to take care of him as his health failed.
This article also mentions that Jim Bark heard it from the Dutchman's own mouth, and that started the Bark and Sims Ely started in the mid 1890s to look and that there were other stories of people bringing 'rich ore' out of the mountains. (can anyone confirm that?)
I think a lot of other things, LOL... but that is for another time.
Gossamer/Janiece

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

..... She stated her grandfather changed their name to Starr but she didn't know why. ....Now that that mystery is solved .....

Well, not exactly. The question would be 'why did these guys keep changing their names?'

Springfield,

I believe it was fairly common for many immigrants to change the spelling of their surnames to make them easier for Americans to pronounce. Sometimes it was done for them at Ellis Island by the people doing the paperwork. Changing Starrar to Star is not such a leap.

Some did it after they had been in the country for awhile. They just got tired of repeating their names, and having to spell them for the untrained American ears.

Seems like a fairly logical explanation to me.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Gossamer]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

That is absolutely true, but why does it change from book to book? And nephews become neighbors and so much other 'changes'.
I go and read all the original photocopies because I argue with the interpretation all the time.
I find it so interesting that Waltz would say that he was from Prussia, which is significant in the history of Germany, and the historians don't feel its an important clue and rather than just writing what he wrote, would 'interpet' in to Germany.
Gossamer/Janiece

 

[Springfield]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

..... She stated her grandfather changed their name to Starr but she didn't know why. ....Now that that mystery is solved .....

Well, not exactly. The question would be 'why did these guys keep changing their names?'

Springfield,

I believe it was fairly common for many immigrants to change the spelling of their surnames to make them easier for Americans to pronounce. Sometimes it was done for them at Ellis Island by the people doing the paperwork. Changing Starrar to Star is not such a leap.

Some did it after they had been in the country for awhile. They just got tired of repeating their names, and having to spell them for the untrained American ears.

Seems like a fairly logical explanation to me.

Take care,

Joe

Yeah, we know all about that common occurance. Most immigrants ended up changing their names in America, particularly in the 19th century, for various reasons.

But these brothers changed theirs three different times: Stoehrer (1829 immigration?); Starar (1860); Starrar (1870); Starr (1880). I guess it doesn't matter, other than their association with Waltz, who incidentally appears to have kept his name ever since his 1839 New York arrival on the ship Ville De Lyon, sailing from Havre (he listed himself as a 28 year old farmer from Wurtemburg).

Cropped images courtesy ancestry.com

 

[Gossamer]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

ok, not to be a pain, but... how do you know that was 'the' Jacob Waltz. I have found them all over the place, same time frame, same everything.
Just curious.
Gossamer/Janiece

 

[Loke]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

@Springfield,
Now, this is out of memory (I know - that's a poor substitute for the real thing), but did not Helen Corbin more or less prove that he arrived i New Orleans?
I seem to recall the manifest list and passengers disembarking - and both Waltz and Weiser was there ... or at least someone with those names.
Or am I barking up the wrong tree? (wouldn't be the first time!)

 

[Springfield]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

ok, not to be a pain, but... how do you know that was 'the' Jacob Waltz. I have found them all over the place, same time frame, same everything.
Just curious.
Gossamer/Janiece

Correct name, correct country of origin, correct age, correct year of travel. Four points of 'confirmation' in one genuine document - pretty decent match to what seems to be 'LDM gospel', or at least some points of it. That said, I don't know how you can prove any of this stuff for certain without a Waltz journal or some such. I'm not an LDM aficionado - my interest lies with aspects of this legend that dovetail with certain aspects of a bigger picture of 'lost mines/hidden treasures' in the southwest. My original comment dealt with the 'Starr' surname - one of those aspects. By no means do I purport to be an LDM expert - I'll defer to others on this forum and elsewhere to decide the 'facts' of the case.

Loke - I don't know about New Orleans. I haven't read Corbin's book. Without knowing any better, it seems logical to me that a guy might sail from Europe to New York, then from New York to New Orleans. Quien sabe?

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Hola amigos,

I like the way Springfield put that term "facts" in quotes, as so much of this is difficult to pin down absolutely.

I do have some doubts about which Waltz arrived on which ship in which port, based on his claiming to be from Prussia, while Wurttembourg is in SW Germany and not a part of Prussia at all.

<Map of Wurttembourg>

<Map of Prussia at greatest extent>

Why would Waltz list Prussia as his country of origin if he were from Wurttembourg, which was an independent minor state? Wurttembourg was a part of the German Confederation, which was a sort of 'buffer state' between Prussia and the Austrian empire. Or we do not have the right Jacob Waltz, and there are a bunch of them on the various ships that arrived before 1840.

I would like to hear any explanations or theories on this question, thank you in advance,
Roy

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

For anyone interested in the Olber's Manifest, you will find a lot of information on that fake document here: http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine....=1&t=549&sid=b82fb389dd26fa8e92c85fa4d8a12c00


Before you go there, I want to make it perfectly clear that Helen Corbin had complete trust in the source for that "evidence". She included that and much more from this same source in "The Bible...." It turns out that the source was as phony as the manifest. Helen was a good woman and a straight shooter. She would have been devastated if she had learned of this before her death.

I believe "The Bible On The Lost Dutchman Mine And Jacob Waltz" is no longer available for purchase through normal outlets.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Greetings Joe,
<Cactusjumper wrote>

I believe "The Bible On The Lost Dutchman Mine And Jacob Waltz" is no longer available for purchase through normal outlets.

Amazon still lists them, may have a few copies still in stock;
http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Lost-Du...6597/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1307762952&sr=8-1

I wish I had been able to meet Helen in person before her passing, and agree that she would likely be enraged at this fraud pulled on her. I believe that some legal action would have been possible against that fraudulent source for providing false information for publication. There are laws about fraud. The book still has a good deal of sound information that is verifiable and I highly recommend it to anyone interested in this legend.

Roy

 

[Springfield]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

.....Why would Waltz list Prussia as his country of origin if he were from Wurttembourg, which was an independent minor state? Wurttembourg was a part of the German Confederation, which was a sort of 'buffer state' between Prussia and the Austrian empire. Or we do not have the right Jacob Waltz, and there are a bunch of them on the various ships that arrived before 1840.

I would like to hear any explanations or theories on this question, thank you in advance,
Roy

Well, on Waltz's Declaration of Intent to become a US citizen, filed September 12, 1848 in Mississippi, Jacob Waltz promises to forsake his previous allegiance to William, King of Wurttemburg. This document is reproduced on page 114 of the Glover book. Then, two months later, on November 12, 1848, a Jacob Waltz, from 'Germany' was naturalized in California. Cropped image below courtesy ancestry.com.

I don't know, Oro. In some ways it seems obvious; on the other hand, how can we be sure of any of this? 'Documentation' shouldn't be a matter of opinion, but it often is. As I mentioned, I don't have a horse in this parade - just reporting the best I can find in the public records.

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Thank you Springfield, though the waters remain muddy. I suspect that some of these problems with name spellings or even country of origin can be a result of the person filling out the documents, as with a census taker writing down a name as he hears it and guesses it should be spelled, or making an assumption about country of origin etc.

You are correct too that even with source documents, they are far from a perfect source and often have flaws or the injected opinions/views of the person who created the documents. Makes for puzzling research.

Roy

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Greetings Joe,
<Cactusjumper wrote>

I believe "The Bible On The Lost Dutchman Mine And Jacob Waltz" is no longer available for purchase through normal outlets.

Amazon still lists them, may have a few copies still in stock;
http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Lost-Du...6597/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1307762952&sr=8-1

I wish I had been able to meet Helen in person before her passing, and agree that she would likely be enraged at this fraud pulled on her. I believe that some legal action would have been possible against that fraudulent source for providing false information for publication. There are laws about fraud. The book still has a good deal of sound information that is verifiable and I highly recommend it to anyone interested in this legend.

Roy

Roy,

It could be that my belief is wrong, but my source was pretty good. Who knows how long it is between the request and the reality.

Hope all is well.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

For the record (but probably irrelevent), there was a Jacob Waltz, steerage passenger on board the 'Dublin', which sailed from Le Havre and arrived in New Orleans May 6, 1844. No age or country of origin was listed. Seems too late.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

This is the census of Jacob and Andrew Starar. Courtesy of Ancestry.com.


Beth

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Roy,

My source for the book being removed from sale was Bob Corbin. It may very well be that they could not remove the book from stores that had purchased a number of them for stock.

I posted this message this morning on the LDM Forum for which I posted a link earlier:

[My source for Tom being the one who gave Helen the Olbers Manifest was a partner of Kraig Roberts. They led me down many a false trail. They played me like a fiddle. ops:

At this time, I have no reason for "confidentiality". Helen's source was Kraig Roberts. My source for that information was Bob Corbin, who was there with Greg and Kraig when he gave it to her. Bob gave me his permission to name him as my source in a telephone conversation this morning.

If you read back through this thread, you will be able to judge the authenticity of the manifest for yourself. In clearing up that last bit of information, I can now put the Olbers story behind me. I believe we have, pretty much debunked that "evidence" along with the Frank Alkire's story.]

That should end any speculation concerning the Olber's Manifest....but I doubt it.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Gossamer]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Beth what year was that census, I spent yesterday reading through transcripts of the 1870 and found the Starr brothers. Will post the transcript but don't have originals, they alphabetized the dumb thing, so I went through it and picked out the people that were on the same page as the Starr Brothers, but its LONG. Will post if interested?
Gossamer/Janiece