LDM why you cant get it !

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Gossamer,

I tend to side with Cubfan on this part.

I've known, being from Pennsylvania - several old German folks from the homeland. I guess I picture Waltz as I have seen the majority of those
folks that I grew up around. Kind of loner - not necessarily lonely - self-sufficient - doing things his own way, and not depending on too many other folks, but probably when he came around to a town, gravitated towards others that were of like mind. And, probably a pretty private man, as immigrants quite often tended to be back then.

If he killed someone, I suspect it would have been because he thought he had to, as also happened quite often back then - but not a cold blooded killer. I cannot see that.

Yes, he did make a deal with the homestead, but it did not come to fruition - the deal was, for all intents and purposes, cancelled.

I also suspect that the word "miser" might be a little strong - most of the Pennsylvania Deutch (Germans), are frugal - by necessity and by want.
The folks I knew where quite happy to be on their little farms, with their crops and their animals. My mother-in-law used to say they could squeeze a nickle until the buffalo pooped - but, our families traded eggs, and milk and the whole nine yards. They went to town once a month.
They weren't miserly - imo - because, the few things they did buy - was always of very good quality and Built to last.

That's kind of how I "see" Waltz.

Beth
 

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Gossamer,

I believe Jacob Waltz was satisfied to live a simple life since he didn't have to work, at least I haven't read about him having to work for a living. I do believe I read somewhere that he owned a saloon in Tortilla Flat at some time, quien sabe?

I also believe he didn't want to draw to much attention, maybe that's why he would go all the way to the fort, and to Florence to make his transactions?

Loner? maybe because he couldn't trust everybody, since only he knew the location of the mine.

Killer? Of course, he was a well known Indian fighter. You didn't fight Indians by out dancing them back then. If he had killed before for survival, he could kill again to acquire wealth.

There are a lot of killers that have a good side. If you don't know of any personally, look at celebrity's that are known killers, and do good deeds.

Homar
 

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Janiece,

Good to see you posting here again. Carolyn and I miss you every year at the Rendezvous. We always talk about the late night discussions we had. Your knowledge and experience covered a lot of ground.
Hope you make it back this year.

I would mirror Beth and Paul's opinions on Jacob Waltz's character. For one of the best researched compilations on the Starrar's, "The Lost Dutchman Mine.....Part 1" by Dr. Thomas Glover is probably highest on the list. Pages: 124, 127, 130-136, 131, 132, 133, 152-153.

Sims Ely had the personal recollections of James Bark and others who knew the Dutchman to base his opinions on. I doubt it gets much better than that.

Hope to see you in October.

Take care,

Joe
 

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Do any of you have any idea as to why the LDM was called the Dutchman mine?
Gossamer/Janiece
 

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Janiece,

Deutschland is the German name for Germany. In America, anyone from Germany was considered Dutch, thus the Lost Dutchman Mine.

That's the story that I have heard.

Take care,

Joe
 

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

@Gossamer

He was German - which in German is 'Deutsch' - which sounds very much like 'Dutch' ...
 

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

*chuckles* Joe, ya beat me to it!!


... and if anything, the Dutchman was obviously not lost, so I guess it should be:
1) The Lost Mine of the Dutchman
2) The Dutchman Lost Mine
...
 

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Humph! Beaten to the punch by both of you ornery scoundrels! Oh well, just to be disagreeable, I will respectfully take the position that since the mine has been commonly called the Lost Dutchman's Mine for over a century (even before Waltz passed away, as there are other Lost Dutchman mines in AZ) I will stick to that name even though another form may be more correct. So there! :tongue3: ;D

Oroblanco

:coffee2: :coffee: :coffee2:
 

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

LOL, now that is what I call an answer. Thank all of you!!
I was talking with someone in my Dr's office today, and she was from Germany, and happened to say 'Deutchland', I laughed, and asked her to repeat it. Go figure that had never occurred to me, I explained to the nice lady and thanked her.
But.... now Roy, you have opened the door, what 'other' mines are called 'Dutchman?'
I've been reading AZ census as far back as I can, and the Jacob Waltz that is there in the written record, he claims to hail from Prussia, which I find very interesting.
Andrew Starr (that is how its written) is his next door neighbor, I was confused by this, because I had thought it was Starrar, or something like that. But over the pages before and after Waltz are a group of people also immigrated from Prussia. Which I have found in pockets all across the US census of 1850-1860. (sorry rambling)
I always refer back to the original copies because the people that 'decipher' the census usually write Germany and or whatever they are thinking. I find so many last names that I disagree with their interpretation. Eh' what can you do?
Someone once mentioned to me that the CA Superstition Mt's also have a 'Dutchman mine'. I haven't looked into it.
Whatcha' think?
Gossamer/Janiece
 

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Hola amigo Janiece,

The two other Dutchman mines in AZ are, one near Wickenburg that dates to the 1870's, but this Dutchman was found dead after Waltz and his mine was not that far from the town; he used to wrap his burros feet in burlap when he would sneak away to his mine and I suspect that this detail got conflated onto Waltz stories later. Some sources place the mine somewhere near Vulture peak. The other was in the Bradshaws a day's hike from Prescott, and the Dutchman in that case was named Henry Youngblood, who left AZ to return to Missouri after making his fortune. I am going from memory here but think that also dates to about the same time period as the Wickenburg story. It has been theorized that all are the same Dutchman, as Waltz was known to have been in the area of the Vulture for a little while and did some serious prospecting in the Bradshaws, but that is about as far as the parallels really go. In my opinion, either of these mines would be worth searching for and did exist, and are not rediscovered as far as I know. Perhaps someone can spot them via satellite imagery?

Now that I think of it, I had started a thread on the Wickenburg lost Dutchman mine here in T-net some time ago, but there was little interest in discussing it. Can't find it on the site anymore. :dontknow:

I would like to hear whatever you would care to share in your own research, thank you in advance.
Roy

:coffee2: :coffee: :coffee2:
 

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Gossamer said:
.... Andrew Starr (that is how its written) is his next door neighbor, ....

Off Topic: Funny how the name Starr seems to somehow find its way into quite a number of these treasure legends, isn't it? It was recently confirmed on the Victorio Peak catagory that Tom Starr was a Doc Noss alias back in the '30's. Just another coincidence I guess. Sorry for the interruption.
 

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

His neighbor's name was Andrew Starar not Starr.

Springfield,

Don't forget about Ringo! LOL

Mike
 

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

On top of page 3, #19 of the 1880 Arizona Territory, Phoenix area, it lists
Jacob Waltz White Male 70 born, self: Prussia, father: Prussia, mother: Prussia.
The next line is
#20 Starr, Jacob white male, 60 and the same as Waltz, Prussia for all above
then Andrew Starr, white male, 58 Prussia
In the same household, George Bryant, white male, 59, Ireland.
Both Jacob Waltz and Jacob Starr list their profession as farmer. Bryant however lists miner as his.
http://search.ancestry.com/iexec?ht...185&fn=Jacob&ln=Waltz&st=r&ssrc=&pid=43310278
Janiece :tongue3:
 

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Janiece,

I believe Dr. Glover addresses the different spellings in his book. Not being at home right now, I will look it up this afternoon.....unless someone beats me to it. As I recall, it was shortened by them, or the census taker just misspelled it.

Take care,

Joe
 

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Gossamer said:
On top of page 3, #19 of the 1880 Arizona Territory, Phoenix area, it lists
Jacob Waltz White Male 70 born, self: Prussia, father: Prussia, mother: Prussia.
The next line is
#20 Starr, Jacob white male, 60 and the same as Waltz, Prussia for all above
then Andrew Starr, white male, 58 Prussia
In the same household, George Bryant, white male, 59, Ireland.
Both Jacob Waltz and Jacob Starr list their profession as farmer. Bryant however lists miner as his.
http://search.ancestry.com/iexec?ht...185&fn=Jacob&ln=Waltz&st=r&ssrc=&pid=43310278
Janiece :tongue3:

Stoehrer was probably the name entered into the Wuerttemburg Emigration Index when they came over on the boat.
Starar was used on the 1860 Federal Census taken in Humboldt County, CA.
Starrar appears on the 1870 Phoenix, AZ property maps and was favored by TE Glover in his research.
Starr was their name on the 1880 Federal Census taken in Phoenix, AZ.

Take your pick. I still maintain that the Starrs have quite a history in the TH lore. Now as far as Ringo is concerned, he was born Richard Starkey. So is he Ringo or Richard?
 

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Strangely enough - I cannot find a death certificate on Andrew Starr, Starar or Starrar.

Does anyone have access to one?

Beth


PS: cannot read that ancestry.com link
 

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

mrs.oroblanco said:
Strangely enough - I cannot find a death certificate on Andrew Starr, Starar or Starrar.

Does anyone have access to one?

Beth


PS: cannot read that ancestry.com link

I don't think you can open that page unless you are an ancestry.com member. It's a scan of the original hand-entered census document and clearly has the spelling 'Starr'.
 

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

I was afraid that no one else can see the page, I am a member of Ancestry.com. But I imagine you can find it elsewhere. I find it interesting that one of the guys name is Jacob too... like in Jacob Weisser?? Or whatever his nephews name was??
Gossamer/Janiece
 

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Courtesy ancestry.com, below is the cropped image of the Census form
 

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