Just Another Clues Thread

[gollum]

Mike

Did you just say Rose Quarts, Dave Oroblanco
What it can’t be soooo.

wrmickel1 Whatch out Mike they’ll release the Hounds.

HAHAHA I said Rose and White Quartz!

Mike

 

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[wrmickel1]

I will try to find it and will post it if I can.

Somehiker also wrote


I am not aware of any version of the LDM which has it as a rich silver mine with pockets of gold. My own theory is that this important detail became lost in the myth making by earlier treasure hunters and treasure writers, on hearing the older Peralta/silver tale, as a lost RICH mine, they just assumed that has to be the same mine of Jacob Waltz and proceeded to confabulate (Mixing) the unrelated story of the Peralta mine with the gold mine of Waltz. I don't think much research has been done on the Peralta/Ludi story in recent times.

Wrmickel1 wrote


I did not say what clue I think is most important. The gold ore itself however is among the most important clues we have. I don't know where you got your information about using "stock" mineral to fill in the creation of the famous match box, can you tell me where to find that statement? I have seen one other piece of ore from the mine which is apparently lost today (not really "lost" but I have no idea who owns it now) but at any rate it is not the clue I think is most important. In my opinion, the most important clue has apparently been overlooked by virtually everyone, so I am not going to mention it and bring attention to it!

Have to agree with Deducer on the episode with Holmes and Waltz, for the same reasons he already posted. It would not make sense to tell a story which reflected badly on himself. Also judging by Holmes actions, he clearly thought he was pretty close to the mine when he was confronted or he would not have gone searching there right after Waltz was dead.

Please do continue;

Well I’ve held other Matchbox pieces produced by The Levi Company, And There name is on them no different then this one, So maybe there all made from Dutchman or then, or from one of the known gold in white Quarts mines in Cali.

wrmickel1

 

[deducer]

Deducer,

I would not call the "standing rock man" insignificant. It is highly significant. It is so because once you find the "standing rock man", there is another clue nearby. Dick and Brownie just never told anybody what it was.

I think that if a person were to find the actual "standing rock man" Brownie referred to, you could use that as a base to look for other significant rock or landscape features. Of course anything AFTER the "standing rock man" would be purely a guess.

Mike

Mike, welcome back.

That clue wouldn't be insignificant to Brownie or anyone else who knew what to do next. But to anyone who didn't know what comes next, it's practically useless- otherwise Brownie wouldn't have been handing that clue out like popcorn.

There were things he knew that he never told anyone except one person, such as how many steps to pace off from the rock house to get to the cache(s). This gives credence to the "You can't find my cache(s) without finding the mine." clue attributed to Waltz.

Because you aim for the mine while pacing off.

 

[Hal Croves]

I have been thinking about this passage for a long time and wondering how this could have been done when limited to the surrounding materials.
It took time and help (an incredible resource) but today I am proud to boast that I understand it.

Returning to your #46) for a moment, I wonder if Waltz used this same ancient process?

 

[Hal Croves]

View attachment 1724506

I have been thinking about this passage for a long time and wondering how this could have been done when limited to the surrounding materials.
It took time and help (an incredible resource) but today I am proud to boast that I understand it.

Returning to your #46) for a moment, I wonder if Waltz used this same ancient process?

Storm is the man.

 

[Oroblanco]

Well I’ve held other Matchbox pieces produced by The Levi Company, And There name is on them no different then this one, So maybe there all made from Dutchman or then, or from one of the known gold in white Quarts mines in Cali.

wrmickel1

Perhaps you might benefit by studying geology a bit? Gold ores are not all alike.

Gollum wrote

Roy,

How could the "detail" become lost in the myth of the DLM when we have HIS description of the veins "one about 18" wide of rose and white quartz with about 30% gold content, and a smaller vein next to it about 8-9" comprised of a soft dark gray mineral (hematite?) with about 30% gold nuggets the size of wheat kernels". That's pretty specific for a "detail" like it being mostly silver to get lost!

........also, don't forget that a pair of cufflinks, a stick pin, and a watch chain (now a bracelet I believe) were made from the candlebox ore.

You seem to have taken this backwards - not that the LDM legend which includes obvious gold references (and gold specimens) but that the story of the lost Peralta silver mine became mixed up with the LDM by earlier treasure hunters that took the description of a lost RICH mine to mean GOLD and thus it HAD to be the same as the LDM. Most Anglo treasure hunters have shown little interest in a lost silver mine. I am saying that the Peralta SILVER mine became morphed/confabulated in with the lost gold mine of Jacob Waltz not the reverse. The very first author to write about the LDM (P.C. Bicknell) is guilty of mixing a lost silver mine with the LDM - his statement about finding a stone cabin with evidence of SILVER smelting on an iron spoon found in the cabin. Nowhere does Waltz state that his mine was a silver mine with pockets of gold in it yet Bicknell ASSUMED that finding evidence of silver smelting MUST be evidence leading to the LDM.

Somehiker - have not been able to find the newspaper article and no longer have a membership in Newspapers dot com which might be where I found it in the first place. Even without it, you know that Barry Storm had gotten the tale from somewhere, and since he had worked as a newspaper man, it is possible that he also found the old newspaper account and included it in his book. I had downloaded the military records with the names of Jacob and Charles Ludi from the Fold3 dot com site, and now these files are impossible to open. However it should be possible to pull them up by anyone with a current (active) membership to that site, the two men had enlisted in Missouri and were discharged in Tucson AZ, had an age difference of 18 years between them. Side thing but I noticed that the newspaper page images that I downloaded from the newspapers dot com site now are so blurry they are unreadable, since my membership lapsed. Anyone else have that issue?

 

[markmar]

wayne...that clue has been distorted over the years to be a rock in the shape of a mans head when in reality it was a man standing..by itself..i was told it fooled the dutchman when he first saw it because he thought someone was following him

Dave

I believe the clue says " you can see over the point of a ridge, a rock shaped like a man, standing in the brush ".
From the Perfil map and other clues, we can deduct how what we are looking for, should be a man's head ( profile ).
From my research, I found out how there are two big rock formations in the shape of a man's head. One is the face from the Perfil map which is on the side with the mines looking opposite the mines, and the warrior's head which is on the side with the two-room house ruin, looking at the mines site.
So, these heads are looking each other from about 200 feet afar. We can deduce how Waltz in his clue was talking about the warrior's head looking toward his mine.
Also I believe the warrior's head is the same landmark Waltz told Holmes to be aware of, while hiking on the Military Trail, because is bigger than the other head landmark and could be seen better from a longer distance.

View attachment 1724572

 

[PotBelly Jim]

On the dispute over the gold ore in the candlebox, this was discussed on another channel so to speak some time ago, Milton Rose wrote about it twice. Julia Thomas took Holmes to court over his taking the gold ore. That doesn't sound like a happy mutual agreement for the disposition.

Oro, while it's true that Milton Rose wrote about a supposed lawsuit against Holmes, there's no record of such an event in the newspapers, etc. IMO, Rose was just repeating the story as he'd heard it. It doesn't mean there is any truth to it, and since there's no documented evidence it ever happened, it probably didn't. Another thing about the story that isn't right, is one of the 3 men Rose said he got the story from...Rose got his name wrong...badly wrong...someone he said he knew and interviewed.

Why do I sense that the Waltz confrontation at TC did happen? Part of my reasons include: Why would Brownie lie about something like that to his good friend, Clay Worst (who took the picture)? Why would Dick lie about or make up a humiliating event, to his son?

Furthermore from that site at TC, it's not too far to Brownie's search area, and to some of the physical clues that can be verified not just as far as the LDM, but also the Two Soldiers, and Doc Thorne's tale. I thought the Doc Thorne tale was myth until I saw what he had described was a rock in the shape of a "erect stallion member."

Deducer,

By Dick Holmes own telling, he was in Government Service against the Indians until 1886, and after that he returned to his Father's ranch. He didn't move to Phoenix until 1889 or 1890. So how did he partner up with McFall in Phoenix, to follow Waltz to his mine, when the Holmes Manuscript states the last time Waltz went to his mine was in 1884?

 

[wrmickel1]

Potbelly

Good One, You know I don’t believe Holmes was even on the Radar. He built himself into the ledgen. But there is a slight chance and most likely he knew Waltz in some form. With Waltz using the military Trail for most of his Travels to and from, And Holmes was a Military Man it would lead one to believe they slept and used the same water holes/wellsprings.

Wrmickel1

 

[wrmickel1]

Perhaps you might benefit by studying geology a bit? Gold ores are not all alike.

Gollum wrote


You seem to have taken this backwards - not that the LDM legend which includes obvious gold references (and gold specimens) but that the story of the lost Peralta silver mine became mixed up with the LDM by earlier treasure hunters that took the description of a lost RICH mine to mean GOLD and thus it HAD to be the same as the LDM. Most Anglo treasure hunters have shown little interest in a lost silver mine. I am saying that the Peralta SILVER mine became morphed/confabulated in with the lost gold mine of Jacob Waltz not the reverse. The very first author to write about the LDM (P.C. Bicknell) is guilty of mixing a lost silver mine with the LDM - his statement about finding a stone cabin with evidence of SILVER smelting on an iron spoon found in the cabin. Nowhere does Waltz state that his mine was a silver mine with pockets of gold in it yet Bicknell ASSUMED that finding evidence of silver smelting MUST be evidence leading to the LDM.

Somehiker - have not been able to find the newspaper article and no longer have a membership in Newspapers dot com which might be where I found it in the first place. Even without it, you know that Barry Storm had gotten the tale from somewhere, and since he had worked as a newspaper man, it is possible that he also found the old newspaper account and included it in his book. I had downloaded the military records with the names of Jacob and Charles Ludi from the Fold3 dot com site, and now these files are impossible to open. However it should be possible to pull them up by anyone with a current (active) membership to that site, the two men had enlisted in Missouri and were discharged in Tucson AZ, had an age difference of 18 years between them. Side thing but I noticed that the newspaper page images that I downloaded from the newspapers dot com site now are so blurry they are unreadable, since my membership lapsed. Anyone else have that issue?

And match it with What Oro. I know it should be matched with the gold in the other boxes, That will never happen till the box changes hands. But please tell me why Gollum posted Rose Quarts and Why did the box only became Authentic after Clay became the owner.

wrmickel1 I’m anticipating your your denial response

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Potbelly

Good One, You know I don’t believe Holmes was even on the Radar. He built himself into the ledgen. But there is a slight chance and most likely he knew Waltz in some form. With Waltz using the military Trail for most of his Travels to and from, And Holmes was a Military Man it would lead one to believe they slept and used the same water holes/wellsprings.

Wrmickel1

Mick, I've never seen any first-hand telling of events from Dick Holmes. For all I know, he never said anything that's been attributed to him. All we have is a manuscript that might, or might not, have been edited by somone not a Holmes. Newspapers were notoriously inaccurate, so the newspaper stories about his life may be wrong in several details.

But we do know that Brownie said his dad searched for the LDM. As Deducer points out, Brownie seems to have believed his dad was spotted by Waltz in TC. Did it happen? I don't know. All I know is the stories about Dick Holmes contradict each other. And that there's a lot of inaccurate/false info in the manuscript.

 

[azdave35]

Mick, I've never seen any first-hand telling of events from Dick Holmes. For all I know, he never said anything that's been attributed to him. All we have is a manuscript that might, or might not, have been edited by somone not a Holmes. Newspapers were notoriously inaccurate, so the newspaper stories about his life may be wrong in several details.

But we do know that Brownie said his dad searched for the LDM. As Deducer points out, Brownie seems to have believed his dad was spotted by Waltz in TC. Did it happen? I don't know. All I know is the stories about Dick Holmes contradict each other. And that there's a lot of inaccurate/false info in the manuscript.

exactly jim...everyone knows whatever is in the newspaper is the truth

 

[wrmickel1]

Mick, I've never seen any first-hand telling of events from Dick Holmes. For all I know, he never said anything that's been attributed to him. All we have is a manuscript that might, or might not, have been edited by somone not a Holmes. Newspapers were notoriously inaccurate, so the newspaper stories about his life may be wrong in several details.

But we do know that Brownie said his dad searched for the LDM. As Deducer points out, Brownie seems to have believed his dad was spotted by Waltz in TC. Did it happen? I don't know. All I know is the stories about Dick Holmes contradict each other. And that there's a lot of inaccurate/false info in the manuscript.

There had to be, The Manuscript and the Matchbox and the Affidavit out of nowhere, forever set the New Owner into the Dutchman’s Ledgen.


It all happened in a short time frame. 69 to 73 or about.

wrmickel1

 

[wrmickel1]

exactly jim...everyone knows whatever is in the newspaper is the truth

All you have to do is follow the trail!

It finds the Truth.

wrmickel1

 

[deducer]

Deducer,

By Dick Holmes own telling, he was in Government Service against the Indians until 1886, and after that he returned to his Father's ranch. He didn't move to Phoenix until 1889 or 1890. So how did he partner up with McFall in Phoenix, to follow Waltz to his mine, when the Holmes Manuscript states the last time Waltz went to his mine was in 1884?

Hi Jim,

Simple, Brownie wrote the manuscript, not his father- and even then, some 50 years later. Brownie was not a professional writer, and tried to work with a writer who put in too much glamour for Brownie's liking. Brownie tried a few times but then gave up and wrote a final version himself without an editor or someone to proof his manuscript. There are at present, four known versions of the manuscript. And they are, as you say, riddled with errors and inconsistencies. I would suggest that he was even then, still unhappy with it, which would give him motivation to deny that he was the author, when someone put on record, their copy of his manuscript.

He also manipulated many of the clues and tales, to throw readers off, and IMO this backfired on him and greatly lessened his credibility as it made his manuscript even more confusing.

Now, back to the incident at TC: did it really happen? I'm of the opinion that something happened there, even if only based on considering the alternative- why would Brownie lie to his good friend Clay Worst? Why would Dick not only make up a self-humiliating incident (who would?) but also lie to his son? What would be the motivation there?

Although there is one thing I will grant you about this incident- there is an eerily similar incident described in a book (I want to say Ely, but I can't remember exactly) published a few years before the Holmes manuscript was released in which Waltz was described as catching someone trying to follow him at TC, except this time it's a neighbor hiding behind a tree, who owned a place that Waltz usually stopped at on his way into the mountains. I'll try to see if I can locate that reference.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Deducer,

Was more of a rhetorical question to re-hash the problems with the Holmes timeline and manuscript. However your answer is probably spot-on IMO. There is also the problem of when stories are told and re-told, they tend to change over time, human memory is a frail thing.

The story of someone else following Waltz in TC doesn't ring a bell, so if you can find it, please do post it. I wouldn't be surprised if Brownie had told several people about the incident, and over time and re-telling another person got "inserted" in place of Holmes.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hi Jim,

Simple, Brownie wrote the manuscript, not his father- and even then, some 50 years later. Brownie was not a professional writer, and tried to work with a writer who put in too much glamour for Brownie's liking. Brownie tried a few times but then gave up and wrote a final version himself without an editor or someone to proof his manuscript. There are at present, four known versions of the manuscript. And they are, as you say, riddled with errors and inconsistencies. I would suggest that he was even then, still unhappy with it, which would give him motivation to deny that he was the author, when someone put on record, their copy of his manuscript.

He also manipulated many of the clues and tales, to throw readers off, and IMO this backfired on him and greatly lessened his credibility as it made his manuscript even more confusing.

Now, back to the incident at TC: did it really happen? I'm of the opinion that something happened there, even if only based on considering the alternative- why would Brownie lie to his good friend Clay Worst? Why would Dick not only make up a self-humiliating incident (who would?) but also lie to his son? What would be the motivation there?

Although there is one thing I will grant you about this incident- there is an eerily similar incident described in a book (I want to say Ely, but I can't remember exactly) published a few years before the Holmes manuscript was released in which Waltz was described as catching someone trying to follow him at TC, except this time it's a neighbor hiding behind a tree, who owned a place that Waltz usually stopped at on his way into the mountains. I'll try to see if I can locate that reference.

How would Waltz have been able to communicate the place by name?

 

[PotBelly Jim]

How would Waltz have been able to communicate the place by name?

Hal,

Apparently, Waltz DIDN'T...if we're to believe the Holmes Manuscript deathbed directions, Waltz never told Holmes to go back to TC where he almost shot him...He tells Dick to go to first water, then second water...probably heavily modified from what Waltz actually said...but who knows...

It appears to be Brownie that relates the story of Waltz and Dick Holmes in TC...not Waltz...

 

[arcana-exploration]

Hal,

Apparently, Waltz DIDN'T...if we're to believe the Holmes Manuscript deathbed directions, Waltz never told Holmes to go back to TC where he almost shot him...He tells Dick to go to first water, then second water...probably heavily modified from what Waltz actually said...but who knows...

It appears to be Brownie that relates the story of Waltz and Dick Holmes in TC...not Waltz...

Two Questions, Question #1 how many folks think Holmes was a straight and shooter (nut with a gun) and how many fell he was not? What is the general consensus?

Question # 2 Besides Indians how many people every talked about the presence of Spirits in the mountains and also to you all the ones who have back, way back in the Supers, LaBarge Canyon, its side canyon, headwaters fish creek (what water) (etc), have any of you felt that I do not know how to say it, well you know what I mean?

 

[Al D]

Two Questions, Question #1 how many folks think Holmes was a straight and shooter (nut with a gun) and how many fell he was not? What is the general consensus?

Question # 2 Besides Indians how many people every talked about the presence of Spirits in the mountains and also to you all the ones who have back, way back in the Supers, LaBarge Canyon, its side canyon, headwaters fish creek (what water) (etc), have any of you felt that I do not know how to say it, well you know what I mean?

To answer question #2, there were two brothers from Massachusetts who claimed to have found the LDM with the help of spirits,
they even wrote a book,