Just Another Clues Thread

[markmar]

Hi Marius,

You may be right, as I have no idea where any Peralta mine, Jesuit treasure, or the LDM is...at least in the Supes...I have been to one Peralta mine, but it's not in that range

View attachment 1723487

Jim

From my reasearch using Peraltas maps and other sources, I found out how Peraltas have worked 6 rich gold mines from about 8 prospects holes in the Superstitions. Of course they have aquired a great amount of gold nuggets panning the canyons below those outcrops.

You know why the Mexicans chose to work clandestine the LDM instead the other mines after 1850 ? Because the LDM has the best concealment in comparison with the other mines. For example, three of them are only few decades yards from very used todays main trails.

 

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[azdave35]

View attachment 1723409
Wayne is correct, it is Brownie in the picture, sitting on the rock, not Dick. My mistake. You can see this rock from where the creek crosses the road, just down from the restaurant at TF. And as I've mentioned before it's the perfect place to ambush someone trailing you because you become exposed, and it's also the place where several trails criss-cross and go off in different directions so it was imperative for Dick to catch Waltz before he got too far from this point.

FWIW, Holmes always thought that Government Wells was what Waltz meant, when he referenced "First Water," and that Mormon Flat was where Waltz crossed the Salt.

And, from that spot, it's not too far to get to Brownie's search area, and to where his urn is located.

deducer...there is alot of clues and info written and said about what waltz said when he was dying...but the truth is that either one or two men(depending on which version you believe) actually was there and knew what he said..one was dick holmes and he passed what he knew to brownie...and i dont know if i would believe everything you hear that people say came from brownie..my understanding is brownie never told anyone what his dad told him...except to one man that was his partner in later years....so most of the things you take as coming from brownie probably didn't..why would he tell anyone the directions to a mine him and his father spent their lives looking for...if he did say anything it was to throw others off....you guys would do alot better in your hunt if you would do as brownie (and herman) did..not as they said....both men had one clue that they both looked for..both said if they found this clue then they could easily find the mine...and that clue was a rock formation that looked like a man standing from a distance

 

[somehiker]

deducer...there is alot of clues and info written and said about what waltz said when he was dying...but the truth is that either one or two men(depending on which version you believe) actually was there and knew what he said..one was dick holmes and he passed what he knew to brownie...and i dont know if i would believe everything you hear that people say came from brownie..my understanding is brownie never told anyone what his dad told him...except to one man that was his partner in later years....so most of the things you take as coming from brownie probably didn't..why would he tell anyone the directions to a mine him and his father spent their lives looking for...if he did say anything it was to throw others off....you guys would do alot better in your hunt if you would do as brownie (and herman) did..not as they said....both men had one clue that they both looked for..both said if they found this clue then they could easily find the mine...and that clue was a rock formation that looked like a man standing from a distance

How did Herman Petrasch hear about the "rock like a man", when he had never met Waltz himself ?
Do you mean Rhiney, since Herman didn't come to Arizona (at Rhiney's request ) until 1892 ?
Anything Herman or his brother Gottfried, who also came to AZ. in '92 to help Rhiney look for the mine, learned about it, would have come second hand from Julia, Rhiney, or someone else who had spoken with JW about the mine while he was still alive.
Because of the animosity directed toward Dick Holmes, it wouldn't have come from him....or Gideon Roberds, if he was also shunned because of the candlebox.

Which raises the question....What was the attitude of the Thomas/Petrasch camp towards Roberds ? Does Roberds' name come up in anything credible said to have been passed down from their side of the story ?
From Julia or any of the Petrasch's that is .

 

[azdave35]

How did Herman Petrasch hear about the "rock like a man", when he had never met Waltz himself ?
Do you mean Rhiney, since Herman didn't come to Arizona (at Rhiney's request ) until 1892 ?
Anything Herman or his brother Gottfried, who also came to AZ. in '92 to help Rhiney look for the mine, learned about it, would have come second hand from Julia, Rhiney, or someone else who had spoken with JW about the mine while he was still alive.
Because of the animosity directed toward Dick Holmes, it wouldn't have come from him....or Gideon Roberds, if he was also shunned because of the candlebox.

Which raises the question....What was the attitude of the Thomas/Petrasch camp towards Roberds ? Does Roberds' name come up in anything credible said to have been passed down from their side of the story ?
From Julia or any of the Petrasch's that is .

wayne...rhiney and herman started out searching together..so anything rhiney knew he shared with herman...this is sheer speculation but i'm thinking waltz told rhiney and julia quite a bit before holmes and roberds came along..probably bits at a time....the point i'm trying to make is both camps (holmes and petrash) were basically only concerned with one clue..the info i have on it came from herman

 

[somehiker]

wayne...rhiney and herman started out searching together..so anything rhiney knew he shared with herman...this is sheer speculation but i'm thinking waltz told rhiney and julia quite a bit before holmes and roberds came along..probably bits at a time....the point i'm trying to make is both camps (holmes and petrash) were basically only concerned with one clue..the info i have on it came from herman

Basically what I'm saying, except Julia and Rhiney started sooner than that, with her "Queer Quest" attempt. I've no doubt most of what JW told them came after Rhiney had rescued Waltz from the tree and brought him the Julia's place. It was also after that when he had Rhiney fetch his ore from where he had hidden it at his adobe cabin. So, spaced over those few months, and only when he felt like talking about it.

The "rock like a man" is one of my favorites, and is something I've kept an eye out for during the few times I've explored the area where I think it and the mine could be. There is another part to that clue though, where Waltz also was supposed to have said "that is where the trail makes a sharp turn to the south" (think that's how it goes). If so, that is a detail well worth remembering.
One question about this remains for me. Was the rock free standing, or was it just a man-shaped part of a larger rock face or formation ? I don't think Waltz was clear about that.
I do have one photo taken out that way, where an old trail in front of it does make such a turn.....from east to south and just a few yards to the left of this ......
Made me wonder where that trail would go

 

[azdave35]

Basically what I'm saying, except Julia and Rhiney started sooner than that, with her "Queer Quest" attempt. I've no doubt most of what JW told them came after Rhiney had rescued Waltz from the tree and brought him the Julia's place. It was also after that when he had Rhiney fetch his ore from where he had hidden it at his adobe cabin. So, spaced over those few months, and only when he felt like talking about it.

The "rock like a man" is one of my favorites, and is something I've kept an eye out for during the few times I've explored the area where I think it and the mine could be. There is another part to that clue though, where Waltz also was supposed to have said "that is where the trail makes a sharp turn to the south" (think that's how it goes). If so, that is a detail well worth remembering.
One question about this remains for me. Was the rock free standing, or was it just a man-shaped part of a larger rock face or formation ? I don't think Waltz was clear about that.
I do have one photo taken out that way, where an old trail in front of it does make such a turn.....from east to south and just a few yards to the left of this ......
Made me wonder where that trail would go

wayne...that clue has been distorted over the years to be a rock in the shape of a mans head when in reality it was a man standing..by itself..i was told it fooled the dutchman when he first saw it because he thought someone was following him

 

[Oroblanco]

On the dispute over the gold ore in the candlebox, this was discussed on another channel so to speak some time ago, Milton Rose wrote about it twice. Julia Thomas took Holmes to court over his taking the gold ore. That doesn't sound like a happy mutual agreement for the disposition.

Not taking this stance, but the counter argument as to why Waltz would decide to give the gold ore to Holmes was this:

He felt he had helped out Julia and Reiney enough, having used up most of his personal stash to save her business,
He felt that only an experienced mountaineer like Holmes would stand any chance to find his mine, and
He allegedly told Holmes to "do right" by Waltz's sister and also for Julia and Reiney when he found and opened the mine up.

The whole Waltz murdering Mexicans tale is almost verbatim found in the earlier tale of "Jacobs and Ludy" and the Peraltas. I would not trust this tale to relate to anything with Jacob Waltz, it looks like a confabulation done by an earlier treasure hunter or treasure writer, perhaps by Holmes himself.

As to a favorite clue, I would rather not say, as it might result in more competition in the area where I think the LDM mine actually is hidden.

Please do continue,

 

[somehiker]

I've seen a few things out there I thought would fit the bill. Free standing and in the brush. But every time I got closer, they turned out to be two rocks, one on top of the other, or a pile of broken rock etc. Nothing that really looked like a face though. At least to me. I always assumed Waltz could see the rock ahead of him on his trail, rather than behind as though he was being followed.....unless he'd missed the turn I guess.
I've also been told a lot of things over the years. But not by JW himself, so not first hand. Never met Julia, Rhiney, or R. Holmes, so nothing second hand either. But I have witnessed and been part of those exercises where a group of people witness a staged incident
When individually questioned, sometimes from those nearest to those farthest from, it's really amazing how the descriptions change.
And that is all within less than a half hour or so.

 

[somehiker]

On the dispute over the gold ore in the candlebox, this was discussed on another channel so to speak some time ago, Milton Rose wrote about it twice. Julia Thomas took Holmes to court over his taking the gold ore. That doesn't sound like a happy mutual agreement for the disposition.

Not taking this stance, but the counter argument as to why Waltz would decide to give the gold ore to Holmes was this:

He felt he had helped out Julia and Reiney enough, having used up most of his personal stash to save her business,
He felt that only an experienced mountaineer like Holmes would stand any chance to find his mine, and
He allegedly told Holmes to "do right" by Waltz's sister and also for Julia and Reiney when he found and opened the mine up.

The whole Waltz murdering Mexicans tale is almost verbatim found in the earlier tale of "Jacobs and Ludy" and the Peraltas. I would not trust this tale to relate to anything with Jacob Waltz, it looks like a confabulation done by an earlier treasure hunter or treasure writer, perhaps by Holmes himself.

As to a favorite clue, I would rather not say, as it might result in more competition in the area where I think the LDM mine actually is hidden.

Please do continue,

I've never had a chance to read the earlier Jacobs, Ludy, Peralta tale you mention Roy.
Where can I find it ?

 

[Oroblanco]

I've never had a chance to read the earlier Jacobs, Ludy, Peralta tale you mention Roy.
Where can I find it ?

Barry Storm included it in his first book Trail of the Lost Dutchman, page 49 is the start though there is a map mentioning them on an earlier page. It also appeared in a newspaper article dating to 1878, unfortunately I don't have it handy, basically the identical tale (Ludi, Peralta, SILVER mine with pockets of gold etc).

 

[somehiker]

Barry Storm included it in his first book Trail of the Lost Dutchman, page 49 is the start though there is a map mentioning them on an earlier page. It also appeared in a newspaper article dating to 1878, unfortunately I don't have it handy, basically the identical tale (Ludi, Peralta, SILVER mine with pockets of gold etc).

If you can find the article , post it.
I'll have a look online as well.
I've looked through a few books I do have, or have borrowed from the library on SW, NM, and Arizona treasure tales when you mentioned this before, but no luck there.

Is there any source, other than the "pit mine" pushers of course, where it is said that Waltz described HIS mine as a "silver mine with pockets of gold". With the popularity of lost spanish mine treasure tales prompting many imaginative newspaper writers back in those days, and the well known Peralta/SantaFe history and publicity surrounding Reavis' "Peralta Church Grant" claims, I'm not surprised that at least one such tale was written which included the Peraltas. But has it been researched to any degree similar to that of Waltz and the LDM ?

 

[wrmickel1]

wayne...that clue has been distorted over the years to be a rock in the shape of a mans head when in reality it was a man standing..by itself..i was told it fooled the dutchman when he first saw it because he thought someone was following him

Well Dave, Happy Fathers Day to ya, if in order I mean. Not sure if you have kids! But I believe the clue is 100 percent True, it’s a man that looks absolutely real it made me look twice. And I don’t spook easy.





I walked right pass the fellow

Wrmickel1

 

[wrmickel1]

On the dispute over the gold ore in the candlebox, this was discussed on another channel so to speak some time ago, Milton Rose wrote about it twice. Julia Thomas took Holmes to court over his taking the gold ore. That doesn't sound like a happy mutual agreement for the disposition.

Not taking this stance, but the counter argument as to why Waltz would decide to give the gold ore to Holmes was this:

He felt he had helped out Julia and Reiney enough, having used up most of his personal stash to save her business,
He felt that only an experienced mountaineer like Holmes would stand any chance to find his mine, and
He allegedly told Holmes to "do right" by Waltz's sister and also for Julia and Reiney when he found and opened the mine up.

The whole Waltz murdering Mexicans tale is almost verbatim found in the earlier tale of "Jacobs and Ludy" and the Peraltas. I would not trust this tale to relate to anything with Jacob Waltz, it looks like a confabulation done by an earlier treasure hunter or treasure writer, perhaps by Holmes himself.

As to a favorite clue, I would rather not say, as it might result in more competition in the area where I think the LDM mine actually is hidden.

Please do continue,

Oroblanco

You do realize that the Matchbox has been downgraded to only the gold inlays are Dutchman’s Ore right. The rest is Levi stock parts. So out of the fifty pounds of ore all that’s left is two slivers and a candle box.

Wrmickel1

 

[deducer]

deducer...there is alot of clues and info written and said about what waltz said when he was dying...but the truth is that either one or two men(depending on which version you believe) actually was there and knew what he said..one was dick holmes and he passed what he knew to brownie...and i dont know if i would believe everything you hear that people say came from brownie..my understanding is brownie never told anyone what his dad told him...except to one man that was his partner in later years....so most of the things you take as coming from brownie probably didn't..why would he tell anyone the directions to a mine him and his father spent their lives looking for...if he did say anything it was to throw others off....you guys would do alot better in your hunt if you would do as brownie (and herman) did..not as they said....both men had one clue that they both looked for..both said if they found this clue then they could easily find the mine...and that clue was a rock formation that looked like a man standing from a distance

I think it's foolish to put all your stock in just one clue, and especially one that's not been verified. What is the provenance of this clue? How does it qualify as being different than the rest of the "he said, she said" clues that have been passed on?

As I have said many times, what we are dealing with here is constant subterfuge, misdirection etc. We are dealing with a subject where deception is the norm and not the exception, and I've developed a strategy to get around that. And an essential part of that is to look at the big picture, and look for certain patterns. Things that seem related to each other.

Why do I sense that the Waltz confrontation at TC did happen? Part of my reasons include: Why would Brownie lie about something like that to his good friend, Clay Worst (who took the picture)? Why would Dick lie about or make up a humiliating event, to his son?

Furthermore from that site at TC, it's not too far to Brownie's search area, and to some of the physical clues that can be verified not just as far as the LDM, but also the Two Soldiers, and Doc Thorne's tale. I thought the Doc Thorne tale was myth until I saw what he had described was a rock in the shape of a "erect stallion member."

 

[wrmickel1]

I think it's foolish to put all your stock in just one clue, and especially one that's not been verified. What is the provenance of this clue? How does it qualify as being different than the rest of the "he said, she said" clues that have been passed on?

As I have said many times, what we are dealing with here is constant subterfuge, misdirection etc. We are dealing with a subject where deception is the norm and not the exception, and I've developed a strategy to get around that. And an essential part of that is to look at the big picture, and look for certain patterns. Things that seem related to each other.

Why do I sense that the Waltz confrontation at TC did happen? Part of my reasons include: Why would Brownie lie about something like that to his good friend, Clay Worst (who took the picture)? Why would Dick lie about or make up a humiliating event, to his son?

Furthermore from that site at TC, it's not too far to Brownie's search area, and to some of the physical clues that can be verified not just as far as the LDM, but also the Two Soldiers, and Doc Thorne's tale. I thought the Doc Thorne tale was myth until I saw what he had described was a rock in the shape of a "erect stallion member."

But yet you still don’t believe the obvious, Holmes was no part of the ledgen. Expect he stoled the gold from under the bed, Julia tried to get it back and lost. Later on. Excluded from the original Quest to find the mine should tell you a lot,
Julia camped the first night a the face of the Superstition Mountain that was no mistake. She was told to do so for the exact reason Dave mentions. The clue they were looking for is there. I took a pic of it, Woun’t Post that yet. They never saw the man standing and went into Hog Canyon realized they made a mistake, went around and headed to the needle
through massacre grounds most likely then there fate was sealed.

Holmes had Nothing to do with it,

Thats the Obvious conclusion

wrmickel1

 

[azdave35]

I think it's foolish to put all your stock in just one clue, and especially one that's not been verified. What is the provenance of this clue? How does it qualify as being different than the rest of the "he said, she said" clues that have been passed on?

As I have said many times, what we are dealing with here is constant subterfuge, misdirection etc. We are dealing with a subject where deception is the norm and not the exception, and I've developed a strategy to get around that. And an essential part of that is to look at the big picture, and look for certain patterns. Things that seem related to each other.

Why do I sense that the Waltz confrontation at TC did happen? Part of my reasons include: Why would Brownie lie about something like that to his good friend, Clay Worst (who took the picture)? Why would Dick lie about or make up a humiliating event, to his son?

Furthermore from that site at TC, it's not too far to Brownie's search area, and to some of the physical clues that can be verified not just as far as the LDM, but also the Two Soldiers, and Doc Thorne's tale. I thought the Doc Thorne tale was myth until I saw what he had described was a rock in the shape of a "erect stallion member."

actually i dont thinks its foolish....think of it this way...when you are trying to find out where someone is going....don't listen to what they say...watch what they do...brownie and herman were both looking solely for the standing man...if i were hunting the ldm..i'd be looking for the same.....i know your next question will be how do i know this?...herman told a local guy here everything he knew about the ldm before he died...he said he and brownie were both trying to find the standing man...brownie had trouble with the cowboys at the U ranch...he thought one of them might have destroyed the rock

 

[Oroblanco]

If you can find the article , post it.
I'll have a look online as well.
I've looked through a few books I do have, or have borrowed from the library on SW, NM, and Arizona treasure tales when you mentioned this before, but no luck there.

I will try to find it and will post it if I can.

Somehiker also wrote

Is there any source, other than the "pit mine" pushers of course, where it is said that Waltz described HIS mine as a "silver mine with pockets of gold". With the popularity of lost spanish mine treasure tales prompting many imaginative newspaper writers back in those days, and the well known Peralta/SantaFe history and publicity surrounding Reavis' "Peralta Church Grant" claims, I'm not surprised that at least one such tale was written which included the Peraltas. But has it been researched to any degree similar to that of Waltz and the LDM ?

I am not aware of any version of the LDM which has it as a rich silver mine with pockets of gold. My own theory is that this important detail became lost in the myth making by earlier treasure hunters and treasure writers, on hearing the older Peralta/silver tale, as a lost RICH mine, they just assumed that has to be the same mine of Jacob Waltz and proceeded to confabulate (Mixing) the unrelated story of the Peralta mine with the gold mine of Waltz. I don't think much research has been done on the Peralta/Ludi story in recent times.

Wrmickel1 wrote

Oroblanco

You do realize that the Matchbox has been downgraded to only the gold inlays are Dutchman’s Ore right. The rest is Levi stock parts. So out of the fifty pounds of ore all that’s left is two slivers and a candle box.

Wrmickel1

I did not say what clue I think is most important. The gold ore itself however is among the most important clues we have. I don't know where you got your information about using "stock" mineral to fill in the creation of the famous match box, can you tell me where to find that statement? I have seen one other piece of ore from the mine which is apparently lost today (not really "lost" but I have no idea who owns it now) but at any rate it is not the clue I think is most important. In my opinion, the most important clue has apparently been overlooked by virtually everyone, so I am not going to mention it and bring attention to it!

Have to agree with Deducer on the episode with Holmes and Waltz, for the same reasons he already posted. It would not make sense to tell a story which reflected badly on himself. Also judging by Holmes actions, he clearly thought he was pretty close to the mine when he was confronted or he would not have gone searching there right after Waltz was dead.

Please do continue;

 

[deducer]

actually i dont thinks its foolish....think of it this way...when you are trying to find out where someone is going....don't listen to what they say...watch what they do...brownie and herman were both looking solely for the standing man...if i were hunting the ldm..i'd be looking for the same.....i know your next question will be how do i know this?...herman told a local guy here everything he knew about the ldm before he died...he said he and brownie were both trying to find the standing man...brownie had trouble with the cowboys at the U ranch...he thought one of them might have destroyed the rock

Actually the provenance of this clue comes from the cowboys at the QCU ranch, whom Brownie had asked to assist him in the search for not just the standing rock man, but two other clues: the hideout/rock house, or the saddle from which the Four Peaks appear as one. So the standing man rock clue was fairly common and well known, and Brownie would not have given out those clues if he thought it would give anyone an outside chance of finding the LDM.

That, to me, makes those clues, including the standing rock man, insignificant.

Now, the next set of clues or directions, from any of those three, but particularly the rock house, from which one would pace off a specific number of steps to end up right in front of the caches, are what's really interesting, and Brownie never told anyone except one person who is still alive. I know the local guy who Herman told everything to, but he didn't tell him everything.

The trouble that Brownie had with the cowboys was that one of them reported to Brownie that he had found the standing rock man, and when Brownie refused to tell him what to do next, he went back and destroyed it.

 

[gollum]

Deducer,

I would not call the "standing rock man" insignificant. It is highly significant. It is so because once you find the "standing rock man", there is another clue nearby. Dick and Brownie just never told anybody what it was.

I think that if a person were to find the actual "standing rock man" Brownie referred to, you could use that as a base to look for other significant rock or landscape features. Of course anything AFTER the "standing rock man" would be purely a guess.

Roy,

How could the "detail" become lost in the myth of the DLM when we have HIS description of the veins "one about 18" wide of rose and white quartz with about 30% gold content, and a smaller vein next to it about 8-9" comprised of a soft dark gray mineral (hematite?) with about 30% gold nuggets the size of wheat kernels". That's pretty specific for a "detail" like it being mostly silver to get lost!

........also, don't forget that a pair of cufflinks, a stick pin, and a watch chain (now a bracelet I believe) were made from the candlebox ore.

Mike

 

[wrmickel1]

Mike

Did you just say Rose Quarts, Dave Oroblanco
What it can’t be soooo.

wrmickel1 Whatch out Mike they’ll release the Hounds.