Did the older Dutch hunters just miss it?

[releventchair]

Thanks and Merry Christmas to you and everyone reading this. I am still above ground so not giving up just yet 😁

On the question of if the old timers had access to GE if they would have found it, in my opinion no they wouldn’t. The people who were closest to Jacob Waltz were told how to find it and they couldn’t find it. I think it’s well hidden and not going to be found easily unless another earthquake accidentally uncovers it.

Please do continue just expressing my opinion which if you add $5 to it you’ll have $5 😁

Thank you for the $5 Orblanco!
Seasons Greetings .

 

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[Idahodutch]

Thank you for the $5 Orblanco!
Seasons Greetings .

Oroblanco,
I thought about this in the night.
There are 2 mines… up at the top, and lower directly across of the hidden camp..
Only the lower mine across of the hidden camp was marked, but not the one up top, the inclined shaft. (Edit: that I know of)

So I would have to say they could have found one of the two ……. But I also do not have the secret instructions for the mine up top.

The secret instructions for the mine across of the hidden camp are not widely known. I believe some information was included, and put on a crude map called the Waltz Map, however it is just my opinion.

The Waltz Map is accurate, and I believe was made by Waltz, for himself.
His answer for not ever having a hard time locating “his mine” again. I believe upon his return, to retrieve a cache, that he wanted to check on “his mine”, but couldn’t find the spot in the huge pile.

Of the 2 mines, it was the lower mine across of the hidden camp, that Waltz called “his mine”, not the Peralta inclined shaft above.

There is the clue about Waltz getting angry at Rhiney for not paying attention, the even Waltz had a hard time finding it again.

Waltz covered and buried “his mine”, and the pile is so big, he had a hard time finding the spot upon return.

I tried to explain on the Waltz Map Thread, but maybe I explained poorly 🤷🏼‍♂️.

So, I think yes, GE can get you there, if you know the clues, but lots more moving of rocks, without the map, showing the exact spot.
BUT, the question was could they (I assume Holmes and Julia are the early Dutch Hunters) have found it with GE….. well they had the clues directly from Waltz

Waltz did not bury the mine up top.
It might be now.

But anyone else, might not have all the clues needed to guide them there.

 

[deducer]

Thanks and Merry Christmas to you and everyone reading this. I am still above ground so not giving up just yet 😁

On the question of if the old timers had access to GE if they would have found it, in my opinion no they wouldn’t. The people who were closest to Jacob Waltz were told how to find it and they couldn’t find it. I think it’s well hidden and not going to be found easily unless another earthquake accidentally uncovers it.

Please do continue just expressing my opinion which if you add $5 to it you’ll have $5 😁

Roy,

I have to agree with you. Around Waltz's time we have all those accidental discovery of the LDM, be it Deering, Thorne, the Two Soldiers, John Reed, et al. Then after a certain time all of these types of discoveries suddenly disappear. First, we have these stories of the natives going to great lengths to conceal the mines after the conflicts.

Then on top of that, the great Bavaspi earthquake of 1887, and also the flood of '91, both of which changed the geography so much that when Senor Ballesteros who had mined with the Peraltas, returned to the area in 1895, he could barely recognize it.

It's kind of an open secret which canyon and ravine the LDM is in, but to find it is entirely another matter.

 

[markmar]

Roy,

I have to agree with you. Around Waltz's time we have all those accidental discovery of the LDM, be it Deering, Thorne, the Two Soldiers, John Reed, et al. Then after a certain time all of these types of discoveries suddenly disappear. First, we have these stories of the natives going to great lengths to conceal the mines after the conflicts.

Then on top of that, the great Bavaspi earthquake of 1887, and also the flood of '91, both of which changed the geography so much that when Senor Ballesteros who had mined with the Peraltas, returned to the area in 1895, he could barely recognize it.

It's kind of an open secret which canyon and ravine the LDM is in, but to find it is entirely another matter.

Just my opinion about your thoughts. None earthquake or flood could have any effect on the LDM's locations. The mines would be more exposed than buried by those phenomena. They are almost at the apex of their ridge.
PS
And about the accidental discoveries, there were three different locations in those events. Only John Deer and Deering have been at the LDM inclined shaft.

 

[Geoffnotjeff]

Just my opinion about your thoughts. None earthquake or flood could have any effect on the LDM's locations. The mines would be more exposed than buried by those phenomena. They are almost at the apex of their ridge.

So, you are sure where they are, and feel they would be more exposed by these actions.

Yet the only truth we actually have is exactly what has been posted. Many found the LDM or another mine in the area and then after these geologic actions no one has (publicly). These directly conflict each other.

Im going with occams razor here and agreeing that geologic action with a dash of covering by at least once source has made any tunnel or pit much harder to find.

 

[markmar]

So, you are sure where they are, and feel they would be more exposed by these actions.

Yet the only truth we actually have is exactly what has been posted. Many found the LDM or another mine in the area and then after these geologic actions no one has (publicly). These directly conflict each other.

Im going with occams razor here and agreeing that geologic action with a dash of covering by at least once source has made any tunnel or pit much harder to find.

Once you are few yards from the inclined shaft, you can't miss it. It has all the characteristics and the signs of a worked mine.

 

[deducer]

Just my opinion about your thoughts. None earthquake or flood could have any effect on the LDM's locations. The mines would be more exposed than buried by those phenomena. They are almost at the apex of their ridge.
PS
And about the accidental discoveries, there were three different locations in those events. Only John Deer and Deering have been at the LDM inclined shaft.

Marius, you say this because you have never been to the Superstitions.

If you had been there, you would understand just how fragile and unstable the geology is. It's basically welded tuff and breccia, with granite, dacite, and basalt thrown in. Things are always crumbling and falling apart, even without earthquakes. It's also why there is an incredible amount of scree.

Below is the picture of the Indian head that Wayne Spencer found long ago, that looks out at something significant in the Superstitions. I am confident in posting it again because that head is no longer there. It has crumbled apart and is unrecognizable now.

 

[markmar]

Marius, you say this because you have never been to the Superstitions.

If you had been there, you would understand just how fragile and unstable the geology is. It's basically welded tuff and breccia, with granite, dacite, and basalt thrown in. Things are always crumbling and falling apart, even without earthquakes. It's also why there is an incredible amount of scree.

Below is the picture of the Indian head that Wayne Spencer found long ago, that looks out at something significant in the Superstitions. I am confident in posting it again because that head is no longer there. It has crumbled apart and is unrecognizable now.

View attachment 2121775

Arthur, you don't pay attention to what I write. There is nothing above those mines to could fall on. Nothing, only sky.
BTW, the most part of the covering made by Waltz, has been washed away.

 

[deducer]

Arthur, you don't pay attention to what I write. There is nothing above those mines to could fall on. Nothing, only sky.
BTW, the most part of the covering made by Waltz, has been washed away.

Do you not know what the word "crumbling" means?

 

[markmar]

Do you not know what the word "crumbling" means?

I believe is the process period when the stone became sand. The big differences of temperature between day and night help to this process.

It's what ancient miners did to take apart big pieces of rock, by heating the rock and after cooling it with water.

Also, in the crumbling process, plays a big role, the latitude, the altitude and how much time of the day a region is exposed to the sun. Regions which have almost cooled down when night arrives, have smaller possibilities to suffer from a crumbling process.

I missed it or not?

 

[deducer]

I believe is the process period when the stone became sand. The big differences of temperature between day and night help to this process.

It's what ancient miners did to take apart big pieces of rock, by heating the rock and after cooling it with water.

Also, in the crumbling process, plays a big role, the latitude, the altitude and how much time of the day a region is exposed to the sun. Regions which have almost cooled down when night arrives, have smaller possibilities to suffer from a crumbling process.

I missed it or not?

You have to be there to understand it. You have to see the unique geology in person and see how it constantly crumbles and falls apart. It's very unstable and brittle. I hope you get out there someday. I know the sarge would be happy to meet you.

 

[Idahodutch]

Do you not know what the word "crumbling" means?

Good morning,
It’s Christmas Eve ….. merry Christmas everybody 😁👍

Idahodutch

 

[markmar]

You have to be there to understand it. You have to see the unique geology in person and see how it constantly crumbles and falls apart. It's very unstable and brittle. I hope you get out there someday. I know the sarge would be happy to meet you.

Ha, I didn't know Sarge would be happy to meet me. I'm looking forward to meet him as soon as possible.
Until then, Merry Christmas to everyone!

 

[coazon de oro]

I believe an older Dutch Hunter will find the mine.
Merry Christmas to all Dutch Hunters young, and old.

 

[markmar]

Many passed through the saddle known from Waltz route told to Holmes, with nobody to could recognize it.
Maybe because nobody expected the saddle to be in that location, where the obvious is hidden behind the wrong perception.

 

[Idahodutch]

Once you are few yards from the inclined shaft, you can't miss it. It has all the characteristics and the signs of a worked mine.

That’s not a clue I ever heard of.
Is this a clue can you tell the source?
To say it’s just how things are, if that’s your plan, doesn’t cut it. 🤪

Folk need to be held accountable for things they say, especially if they act like it is well known or something.
I’m sure you can appreciate that.

Maybe this is a clue, and I just haven’t heard of it, 🤷🏼‍♂️

So, are you able and willing to enlighten us a little bit, about your statement. Just your statement ….. no moving the goalposts please 🤓👍

Thanks,
Idahodutch

 

[Idahodutch]

Many passed through the saddle known from Waltz route told to Holmes, with nobody to could recognize it.
Maybe because nobody expected the saddle to be in that location, where the obvious is hidden behind the wrong perception.

Once again, statements without any form of back up.
You were not there to speak on the actions of “many” and you have told us you don’t like clues, and they are messed up, and that you change or dismiss at will.

So please, statements Ike these that you make, have no reference, other than you say so, but markmar, you were not there.

How about just the clue that talks of the saddle. Please explain why the so called many, were not able to recognize it. Doesn’t it look like a saddle, does it tie in to a ridge where 4 Peaks looks like one peak.

I think you are unable to back up most of what you say about the LDM, because you changed clues.

If you went by the clues as we got them, you would not get grief from me, rather you would get support.

You have been at this for a while, but rarely do you start off with admitting to changing the wording of clues, so that you can attribute them as you see fit.

But, you want everybody to think that you know what you are talking about, and you want recognition for it.

I say recognition for what? You didn’t explain or show anything that can be verified or compared to the clues.

Intentionally changing clues, and not being open about it, readily, is one thing, and have at it all you want.

But to start posting your made up stuff under the guise of truth, is called misleading, you know, pretty much like lying.

It’s against the rules to knowingly post false information.

You think the old timers just missed finding the LDM, because they did not recognize the saddle. Ok, good for you.
But to tell us it is truth, is utter nonsense.
Just speculation you tell yourself, too often perhaps.

I suppose you will just say that “always, in your opinion.”

Just be upfront. And please don’t mislead about what is written in the clues. Or be upfront about any changes you’re making at the moment….. please.
I’m sure it would avoid much of the drama that arises.

Sincerely,
Idahodutch

 

[markmar]

Once again, statements without any form of back up.
You were not there to speak on the actions of “many” and you have told us you don’t like clues, and they are messed up, and that you change or dismiss at will.

So please, statements Ike these that you make, have no reference, other than you say so, but markmar, you were not there.

How about just the clue that talks of the saddle. Please explain why the so called many, were not able to recognize it. Doesn’t it look like a saddle, does it tie in to a ridge where 4 Peaks looks like one peak.

I think you are unable to back up most of what you say about the LDM, because you changed clues.

If you went by the clues as we got them, you would not get grief from me, rather you would get support.

You have been at this for a while, but rarely do you start off with admitting to changing the wording of clues, so that you can attribute them as you see fit.

But, you want everybody to think that you know what you are talking about, and you want recognition for it.

I say recognition for what? You didn’t explain or show anything that can be verified or compared to the clues.

Intentionally changing clues, and not being open about it, readily, is one thing, and have at it all you want.

But to start posting your made up stuff under the guise of truth, is called misleading, you know, pretty much like lying.

It’s against the rules to knowingly post false information.

You think the old timers just missed finding the LDM, because they did not recognize the saddle. Ok, good for you.
But to tell us it is truth, is utter nonsense.
Just speculation you tell yourself, too often perhaps.

I suppose you will just say that “always, in your opinion.”

Just be upfront. And please don’t mislead about what is written in the clues. Or be upfront about any changes you’re making at the moment….. please.
I’m sure it would avoid much of the drama that arises.

Sincerely,
Idahodutch

It's not me who is seeking for recognition. Recognition in this case means to can prove how what I say is true by showing where the LDM is located and some pics with the gold ore. I'm not willing to show these, so the recognition would not come.
What I write about the region of the LDM is the pure truth, and I don't expect someone to believe it because it's me who write about, but to keep it as an new alternative clue beside all the other which didn't help at all.

Have a nice weekend

 

[Idahodutch]

It's not me who is seeking for recognition. Recognition in this case means to can prove how what I say is true by showing where the LDM is located and some pics with the gold ore. I'm not willing to show these, so the recognition would not come.
What I write about the region of the LDM is the pure truth, and I don't expect someone to believe it because it's me who write about, but to keep it as an new alternative clue beside all the other which didn't help at all.

Have a nice weekend

I suppose many of us are predictable markmar 😁
You have a nice weekend too 👍

 

[Idahodutch]

It’s not conclusive, but the general consensus on
“Did the old timers just miss it?”

I think was more than one answer ….
> some old timers are still alive - it isn’t time up yet 👍
> yes it was overlooked, or walked right past. 👍
> it was secretly found already 😟
> it never existed 😟

(Some consensus extends past this thread) 👌🧐😁
There are probably more?

Edit: > earthquake, floods covered/changed terrain too much 😟