Just Another Clues Thread

[PotBelly Jim]

I agree that there's a lot that went on that didn't make it into print. I've always been ambivalent about what came out of the Holmes camp, and that ambivalence centers on what happened out at Tortilla Creek.

For me, the Tortilla Creek incident did happen- it is in the right place. It is on the way to the canyon that the Two Soldiers got lost in.

Ambivalence regarding any of these stories is something I totally get

Regarding stuff that doesn't make it into print...about 99.999% of human history, if I had to guess.

If the Holmes/Tortilla Creek incident was just a "little" off in the retelling, it could explain alot. For example, Waltz saying with exasperation: "Dick, don't you know men have been killed for what you did?" can easily become "Do that again and I'll kill you."

 

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[deducer]

If the Holmes/Tortilla Creek incident was just a "little" off in the retelling, it could explain alot. For example, Waltz saying with exasperation: "Dick, don't you know men have been killed for what you did?" can easily become "Do that again and I'll kill you."

I would doubt that Waltz was anything other than downright hostile. Holmes was doing the equivalent of stalking someone going to an ATM with the intent of stealing the PIN.

We are, after all, talking about Waltz's live savings. It was his retirement account and he had just caught someone who had the intent of taking from it.

The other thing that comes to mind is that, depending on what version you believe- Waltz believed that he had paid his due for acquiring or coming across the LDM.

 

[markmar]

Probably an unpopular opinion, but any clue attributed to Waltz is probably not what he actually said, for obvious reasons.

That being said, I think the best Waltz-related clue is that he was going to take Rhiney and Julia to the board house, and then they made quite a few stops at and near the Half Circle U while searching.

IMHO you are right because from that point is the easiest way to rich the LDM, if someone knows where it is.
Also, I'm almost sure nor the two soldiers and nor Deering have found the LDM. They found the same mine which is more easy to locate, with not many effort if you know where to look, and this mine is what we know today as Haywood, Polka, etc.
The only persons who were at the LDM spot, were Dc Thorne and Reed who were led there by the Apache, and Waltz- Wisner who were led there by the Mexicans.

 

[arcana-exploration]

IMHO you are right because from that point is the easiest way to rich the LDM, if someone knows where it is.
Also, I'm almost sure nor the two soldiers and nor Deering have found the LDM. They found the same mine which is more easy to locate, with not many effort if you know where to look, and this mine is what we know today as Haywood, Polka, etc.
The only persons who were at the LDM spot, were Dc Thorne and Reed who were led there by the Apache, and Waltz- Wisner who was led there by the Mexicans.

I agree I cannot believe that that the two soldiers taking a short cut and then maybe chasing a deer to the LDM is not believable at all. No one even before the 7.4 earthquakes, would stumble across the LDM by sheer luck. You would have to make a purposeful effort to get up there, prospector might, or someone looking for the LDM might but I do believe the two soldiers story. I believe they may a rubble pile with gold but not the LDM. And actually, I have always wondered, if the soldiers lied about how they found their site. Maybe they were covering up that they had some dirty deed knowledge of the LDM and did not want it out there?.

 

[Al D]

I agree I cannot believe that that the two soldiers taking a short cut and then maybe chasing a deer to the LDM is not believable at all. No one even before the 7.4 earthquakes, would stumble across the LDM by sheer luck. You would have to make a purposeful effort to get up there, prospector might, or someone looking for the LDM might but I do believe the two soldiers story. I believe they may a rubble pile with gold but not the LDM. And actually, I have always wondered, if the soldiers lied about how they found their site. Maybe they were covering up that they had some dirty deed knowledge of the LDM and did not want it out there?.

I think Waltz discovered the mine by sheer luck, as I do not believe the story of Waltz and the two Mexicans

 

[markmar]

I agree I cannot believe that that the two soldiers taking a short cut and then maybe chasing a deer to the LDM is not believable at all. No one even before the 7.4 earthquakes, would stumble across the LDM by sheer luck. You would have to make a purposeful effort to get up there, prospector might, or someone looking for the LDM might but I do believe the two soldiers story. I believe they may a rubble pile with gold but not the LDM. And actually, I have always wondered, if the soldiers lied about how they found their site. Maybe they were covering up that they had some dirty deed knowledge of the LDM and did not want it out there?.

Jeff

I believe you are right the two soldiers were not talking the truth on how they found that mine. Take in consideration that the same mine was worked by a soldier from Fort McDowell and " sold " to John Carrol ( according to Barry Storm story ) before the two soldiers stumble upon it.

 

[markmar]

I think Waltz discovered the mine by sheer luck, as I do not believe the story of Waltz and the two Mexicans

Alan

I don't believe Waltz was the luckiest man in the world. Like many accounts tell, there is a place that " never a white man would think to look ".

 

[Al D]

Alan

I don't believe Waltz was the luckiest man in the world. Like many accounts tell, there is a place that " never a white man would think to look ".

I have not heard that one, do you have a source?

 

[markmar]

I have not heard that one, do you have a source?

Is a clue Apache Jack told to Schooley while describing the LDM region. I believe is written in Sims Elly's book.

 

[Al D]

Is a clue Apache Jack told to Schooley while descripting the LDM region. I believe is written in Sims Elly's book.

Thank you, I read Sims but seemed to have missed that.

 

[azdave35]

These are very good reasonings; sound logic here.

The one thing that prevents me from accepting this outcome is the fact that when Waltz caught Holmes tracking him out by Tortilla Creek, he informed Holmes that if Holmes tried that stunt again, Waltz would kill him. To me, these are very strong words.

What exactly happened to reverse Waltz's position from threatening to kill Holmes, to giving him the ore, outright?

deducer...its hard to elaborate on how waltz felt about being tracked by holmes (if it really even happened)...waltz might not have been the mean nasty murdering scoundrel that he is made out to be..my guess is he wasn't....nobody has ever turned up any record of him being arrested for any violent crimes..or anything else for that matter...if i had a hidden mine and i caught a friend following me..i would scold him good but wouldn't hold a grudge...gold does funny things to people

 

[deducer]

deducer...its hard to elaborate on how waltz felt about being tracked by holmes (if it really even happened)...waltz might not have been the mean nasty murdering scoundrel that he is made out to be..my guess is he wasn't....nobody has ever turned up any record of him being arrested for any violent crimes..or anything else for that matter...if i had a hidden mine and i caught a friend following me..i would scold him good but wouldn't hold a grudge...gold does funny things to people

Not sure this would be something Holmes would just make up just for the heck of it. Many years later, he went back to that spot, sat on it and let his picture be taken. Why do that if the whole thing was a contrivance? Just a waste of time and energy. It's actually on the way to where Brownie's search area was.

 

[azdave35]

Not sure this would be something Holmes would just make up just for the heck of it. Many years later, he went back to that spot, sat on it and let his picture be taken. Why do that if the whole thing was a contrivance? Just a waste of time and energy. It's actually on the way to where Brownie's search area was.

have you seen this pic ?

 

[somehiker]

It was Dick's son Brownie who posed on the boulder, was it not. Photo probably taken by Clay Worst, I would surmise.
If true, Dick showed the rock to Brownie, then Brownie to Clay. It's both a story and a clue to Waltz's route that I also find plausible and, having spoken a bit with Clay about it, quite believable. I've been to the boulder. Sat on it myself and looked around to see what matched the background in the photo. I've also done a fair bit of hiking and climbing well beyond the spot. I suspect I've also gone in about as far as Waltz himself would have had to go, though not necessarily by the same route.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

That Brownie sat there on that rock is indisputable. It happened, we have the photographic evidence. But there's no evidence the related story about Dick Holmes following Waltz there is true, while we have evidence that seemingly points to the likelihood that it ISN'T true.

- In the Holmes Manuscript deathbed confession and directions to the mine, why didn't Waltz start with: "Dick, head on back to that rock in Tortilla Creek where I almost shot you. Start there."

- The timeline is problematic. Holmes would have likely been too young to have followed Waltz into the mountains. While the Holmes Manuscript would have us believe Waltz was traipsing around out there until 1891, (actually catching his pneumonia on a trip out there instead of the flood in town), most other sources say he didn't frequent the mine much and hadn't been there for many years prior to his death.

I'm just repeating stuff we all know, so I'll stop. Brownie was a stand-up guy by all accounts, and he had a belief in his father's word that seems to have placed Dick not far from the right hand of God. Quite understandable, but to an outside observer it would appear Dick Holmes, or someone else telling stories about Dick to Brownie, (I've heard some stories about my father I know aren't true, so I wonder if the same might be true of Brownie, considering Dick's place in territorial history) might've had a tendency to yarn it up.

 

[deducer]

have you seen this pic ?

Wayne is correct, it is Brownie in the picture, sitting on the rock, not Dick. My mistake. You can see this rock from where the creek crosses the road, just down from the restaurant at TF. And as I've mentioned before it's the perfect place to ambush someone trailing you because you become exposed, and it's also the place where several trails criss-cross and go off in different directions so it was imperative for Dick to catch Waltz before he got too far from this point.

FWIW, Holmes always thought that Government Wells was what Waltz meant, when he referenced "First Water," and that Mormon Flat was where Waltz crossed the Salt.

And, from that spot, it's not too far to get to Brownie's search area, and to where his urn is located.

 

[deducer]

- In the Holmes Manuscript deathbed confession and directions to the mine, why didn't Waltz start with: "Dick, head on back to that rock in Tortilla Creek where I almost shot you. Start there."

This is a point that has been raised several times by a few serious researchers. For me, it reinforces my notion that on his deathbed, Waltz didn't know who he was talking to, and thus gave complete directions. This premise then allows for Holmes to have known so much, despite being warned upon pains of death not to follow Waltz into the mountains, and despite perhaps being disliked by Waltz.

I don't think that Waltz was the kind of person who would have bequeathed his mine to more than one person or party, causing a competition.

- The timeline is problematic. Holmes would have likely been too young to have followed Waltz into the mountains. While the Holmes Manuscript would have us believe Waltz was traipsing around out there until 1891, (actually catching his pneumonia on a trip out there instead of the flood in town), most other sources say he didn't frequent the mine much and hadn't been there for many years prior to his death.

I would not be surprised if Holmes was in his teens, even early teens when he followed Waltz. In the early days of the frontier, people had to grow up fast.

EDIT: To follow up on this, T.E. Glover in his "Holmes Manuscript" states that Waltz was at his mine as late as 1884. Glover, himself, thinks that Dick Holmes followed Waltz around 1880. This would make Holmes 15 years old. On the frontier, that's basically an adult age.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

This is a point that has been raised several times by a few serious researchers. For me, it reinforces my notion that on his deathbed, Waltz didn't know who he was talking to, and thus gave complete directions. This premise then allows for Holmes to have known so much, despite being warned upon pains of death not to follow Waltz into the mountains, and despite perhaps being disliked by Waltz.

I don't think that Waltz was the kind of person who would have bequeathed his mine to more than one person or party, causing a competition.



I would not be surprised if Holmes was in his teens, even early teens when he followed Waltz. In the early days of the frontier, people had to grow up fast.

EDIT: To follow up on this, T.E. Glover in his "Holmes Manuscript" states that Waltz was at his mine as late as 1884. Glover, himself, thinks that Dick Holmes followed Waltz around 1880. This would make Holmes 15 years old. On the frontier, that's basically an adult age.

While it's impossible to know for sure, it seems to me that the stories indicate Waltz intended his remaining caches go to Julia, not the mine. Only a mining man with connections to the industry, connections to and the trust of men with lots of money, and the demonstrated ability to run a profitable mine, could reasonably be expected to have the wherewithal to develop that mine. Waltz would have known Julia stood no chance of that, and the stories seem to indicate this is what he was thinking when he told her to look for caches, and told the other two how to find the mine. The older of the two men was a well-known superintendent of a large and profitable mine.

The mine was in rough country, there was no mill nearby, no transportation, no nothing. So it would take a great deal of money and experience to open that mine. This IMO is why Waltz never filed a claim on it. He would have just had to sell it anyway, in order to see it developed. That didn't work too well for Wickenburg or Vickroy, whose misfortune I'm sure Waltz followed closely. So if all filing a claim would do is force his own hand, and bring multitudes of men looking to strike it rich into his quiet little canyon, why do it?

I believe Dick Holmes Jr. was born in 1867, which would have made him 13 in 1880, but I've never verified that for certain myself. The newspapers said 1865. Not that it matters as we're splitting hairs here. I think you make a good point that Dick Holmes was old enough to follow Waltz into the mountains in later years, given the demands on young men of the day...even if he was barely into his teens.

The one thing that seems obvious, regardless of what each of us thinks about the details of the stories, is that rock in Tortilla Creek was important to Brownie's search for the LDM.

 

[markmar]

Jim

I believe Waltz was never made a step in Tortila Creek. IMHO this deduction was a lure made out from Gonzales map.
The wrong interpretation of the old Mexican maps which were cunning made using few Spanish treasure codes,was the beggining of a wrong researching plan. Is the only reason nobody found any real Peralta mine using their ( Peraltas ) maps, except NP.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Hi Marius,

You may be right, as I have no idea where any Peralta mine, Jesuit treasure, or the LDM is...at least in the Supes...I have been to one Peralta mine, but it's not in that range

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