Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[PotBelly Jim]

Howdy Jim,

The problem with the view of Weaver's Needle from the Pit Mine, is that on Waltz's drawing, the high side of Weaver's Needle is on the left while looking at it from the Pit Mine, the high side is on the right. The other problem is the it is not a Dutchman clue, David Leach made that clue up. It was David who assumed Waltz drawing was what could be seen from his mine. It was he who started to call it the gunsight clue. Waltz never said that, but still it does not fit, it is miles away on the opposite side.

Homar

View attachment 1643257

Hey Homar, I have no idea which way Waltz supposedly drew the map...I've seen it both ways...In the end I don't think it matters anyway...if I had to draw the Needle from memory, I doubt I could get it right...

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Diving for Pleasure and Treasure - Grab it through Amazon!

[coazon de oro]

View attachment 1643257

Hey Homar, I have no idea which way Waltz supposedly drew the map...I've seen it both ways...In the end I don't think it matters anyway...if I had to draw the Needle from memory, I doubt I could get it right...

Howdy Jim,

As you can see, the bottom one is the exact copy of Waltz drawing. Jack San Felice purposely turned it around so that it would fit the pit mine story.

Homar

 

[coazon de oro]

were you there when waltz said that clue?

Howdy Dave,

You must be a democrat with your double standards. Why don't you ask that same question to those using Waltz's clues when trying to make the Pitt Mine fit the LDM?

Homar

 

[OldManOfTheRiver]

Hey guys simmer down. The images are reversed tho. Makes ya wonder.

 

[OldManOfTheRiver]

I am sorry but the Pitt doesn't fit. Holmes said said that Waltz had a bead on him at Hell's Hole Spring. Julia went in a wagon because she probably had a cut of the take from Holmes *despite what is/was written*.

"No miner will ever find my mine, Cowboys won't either."

It does to everyone that hasn't found it but that doesn't matter. There are 5 other spots it can be in besides the Pitt mine.

I am waiting on someone to say the show down didn't occur at Hell's Hole. Never seen that before. Lot's of smoke and mirrors about First and Second Water but nothing ever about what really happened or why he decided to tell him and only him the location 30 years later. lol.

 

[somehiker]

Without the clues which were reported to have been passed on to Julia and Rhiney (at least), the so called "pit mine" is nothing more than one of the abandoned silver mines on that ridge. Either played out or left idle when the price of silver dropped in the late 1800's, legal claims blanketed much of the area, including that where the mine in question was re-opened 80 or 90 years later. The BIG elephant in the room IMO, is that those claims were written about in the newspapers of the day and I'm sure talked about on the street and wherever else miners would have hung out well before Waltz died. The claims were even shown on the map made by Gustavus Cox, and yet none of this news was ever mentioned in any account relating to the LDM/Waltz/Julia etc. Nor was the presence of silver in any appreciable quantity mentioned by JW with regard to HIS mine.
So no, it's not the LDM. And any news he might have heard about the Silver Chief and surrounding mines didn't worry JW back then at all, because his mine was somewhere else entirely. Just my own conclusions.....yours may vary.

 

[sgtfda]

It's clear Wayne you never heard the inside story on what was found up there. As I look at it good for them. A lot of work was put into the recovery effort. I personally think it was a stash site.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Howdy Jim,

As you can see, the bottom one is the exact copy of Waltz drawing. Jack San Felice purposely turned it around so that it would fit the pit mine story.

Homar

Hey Homar,

If San Felice reversed it, why is it "reversed" in Jesse's book? A pit mine conspiracy! You may be right, but I sure don't know, and in the end, I don't think it matters how it was drawn...to each his own, amigo...

Without the clues which were reported to have been passed on to Julia and Rhiney (at least), the so called "pit mine" is nothing more than one of the abandoned silver mines on that ridge. Either played out or left idle when the price of silver dropped in the late 1800's, legal claims blanketed much of the area, including that where the mine in question was re-opened 80 or 90 years later. The BIG elephant in the room IMO, is that those claims were written about in the newspapers of the day and I'm sure talked about on the street and wherever else miners would have hung out well before Waltz died. The claims were even shown on the map made by Gustavus Cox, and yet none of this news was ever mentioned in any account relating to the LDM/Waltz/Julia etc. Nor was the presence of silver in any appreciable quantity mentioned by JW with regard to HIS mine.
So no, it's not the LDM. And any news he might have heard about the Silver Chief and surrounding mines didn't worry JW back then at all, because his mine was somewhere else entirely. Just my own conclusions.....yours may vary.

Hey Wayne...all good conclusions, I think...so why didn't Waltz ever file a claim? That's another one people tend to ignore, or try to explain away...the truth, while I don't want to get between a man and his own conclusions, is that nobody knows squat, for sure...we're all just guessing...

 

[sgtfda]

Jim
Waltz was screwed out of his three claims in the Bradshaws. Dr Glover gave a talk on the at Dons Camp couple years ago.

 

[somehiker]

Hey Homar,

If San Felice reversed it, why is it "reversed" in Jesse's book? A pit mine conspiracy! You may be right, but I sure don't know, and in the end, I don't think it matters how it was drawn...to each his own, amigo...






Hey Wayne...all good conclusions, I think...so why didn't Waltz ever file a claim? That's another one people tend to ignore, or try to explain away...the truth, while I don't want to get between a man and his own conclusions, is that nobody knows squat, for sure...we're all just guessing...

It's possible that the "needle" shown on Waltz drawing could be another, perhaps smaller rock formation/peak that was in sight of his mine....or cache. To assume it's Weavers Needle might be a mistake.

I've always wondered if another explanation for JW's reluctance to file a claim might be because of it being within the land area claimed by Reavis the "Baron".

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Jim
Waltz was screwed out of his three claims in the Bradshaws. Dr Glover gave a talk on the at Dons Camp couple years ago.

Thanks, Frank...I'll put it on my list of stuff to pester him about...(BTW, had to fire up the wood stove today here in Pennsyltucky...brrr)...one thing I've been wondering about is just how active and successful those silver mines in Rogers actually were...I've been doing a deep dive in the newspapers in Globe, and I haven't really found that much about them, at least so far...every day, the papers covered a bunch of mines all over around Globe, in pretty good detail, but very few mentions of the ones we're talking about...do you know if Jack has any numbers on production and dates for those mines?

 

[somehiker]

It's clear Wayne you never heard the inside story on what was found up there. As I look at it good for them. A lot of work was put into the recovery effort. I personally think it was a stash site.

Over the years I've heard a lot of inside stories.
First hand, second, and third.
Most have turned out to be BS, even though the one who gave me the scoop may have believed it....and thus I in turn.
Back when I first posted photos of the Bat Cave for instance, I was told by both a friend and another seemingly informed "insider" whose word I also trusted that the cave had been declared off limits and posted by the FS to protect the bats....that I shouldn't go back there. It wasn't all that long before I was able to watch a TV series that concluded with someone finding a "Jesuit Cross" up in that cave. I haven't had time to go back myself yet, but another who has been there several times has told me there never were any signs posted anywhere near the cave.

 

[sgtfda]

I found some reports online. That whole hill is covered with old mines.

 

[coazon de oro]

were you there when waltz said that clue?

Howdy Dave,

I personally was not there as you may have guessed, but Dick Holmes was there when Waltz related this on his deathbed. It was once debated that Dick Holmes was not even in town that day, that Dr. Glover had new information on his new book that was about to come out. I stated that it was impossible for Holmes to come up with such detailed directions to the mine unless he was there. I said that what ever Mr. Glover had, had to be based on an assumtion. I called it before it came out, and I was right. Both Wayne Tuttle, and Matthew Roberts revealed the mistake of identity due to Dick Holmes having the same name as his father, and grandfather. I have never asked a single question about the LDM clues in the nine years that I have been posting.

Homar

 

[somehiker]

Jim:
Part of an 1882 report.....

 

[somehiker]

I found some reports online. That whole hill is covered with old mines.

Not just that one, the ridge to the NE also has a group of old mines and prospects shown on the original Wilderness Survey map.





Likely a few locals got there own copies of this in or about 1982, making it easy to head out for a looksee at what might still be available from some of those mines out there. If I also happened to have a copy of that previous 1882 report I just posted, I know where I would have gone looking for first.....ie "rich pockets of gold". Or at least....."Free gold"....just like the old report says.

 

[azdave35]

Howdy Dave,

I personally was not there as you may have guessed, but Dick Holmes was there when Waltz related this on his deathbed. It was once debated that Dick Holmes was not even in town that day, that Dr. Glover had new information on his new book that was about to come out. I stated that it was impossible for Holmes to come up with such detailed directions to the mine unless he was there. I said that what ever Mr. Glover had, had to be based on an assumtion. I called it before it came out, and I was right. Both Wayne Tuttle, and Matthew Roberts revealed the mistake of identity due to Dick Holmes having the same name as his father, and grandfather. I have never asked a single question about the LDM clues in the nine years that I have been posting.

Homar

homar..it is highly unlikely that waltz told anyone the real truth about where he was getting his gold...if he had the source of his gold would have been discovered many years ago...if he told holmes anything it was b.s.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Thanks, Wayne...I have Jimmy Jinks, do you happen to recall where the 1882 report came from? It sounds real familiar, but I can't place it...

Basically what I was trying to do, is kind of a timeline of when these mines were open (I know they changed hands and started/stopped quite a bit) using newspaper reporting out of Globe...the online newspaper databases generally don't cover the time frame we're interested in, except for one paper in Globe...that's good, since we're talking about the Pioneer Dist/Rogers Dist...just looking at the papers, which give really detailed weekly reports, there isn't a lot on the mines in Rogers...which leads me to question, just how active they were, and for what time frames they sat idle, before the price of silver got fixed and they all went bust...for example I know Rogers discovered the Silver Chief in 1875, but it took a few years for him to open it up...

If you can remember where you got the 1882 report, pls let me know...Thx, Jim

EDIT: Never mind...it looked familiar because you had posted it before...I found it, PG 84 of this thread if anyone else is interested...thanks again, Jim

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Howdy Dave,

I personally was not there as you may have guessed, but Dick Holmes was there when Waltz related this on his deathbed. It was once debated that Dick Holmes was not even in town that day, that Dr. Glover had new information on his new book that was about to come out. I stated that it was impossible for Holmes to come up with such detailed directions to the mine unless he was there. I said that what ever Mr. Glover had, had to be based on an assumtion. I called it before it came out, and I was right. Both Wayne Tuttle, and Matthew Roberts revealed the mistake of identity due to Dick Holmes having the same name as his father, and grandfather. I have never asked a single question about the LDM clues in the nine years that I have been posting.

Homar

Homar,

I don't know what was being debated, as I wasn't there, but Dr. Glover never said one way or the other who he thought was up at the Onyx mines...Richard Sr. or "Dick" Jr...he just brought up that he couldn't tell which one was out of town based on the newspapers...Dr. Glover has always said in his books that he leans towards believing that Dick Jr. was at Waltz's death bead...He wrote: "My money is on Holmes" as to whether or not Holmes was there when Waltz died...you probably know that, just want to clarify for other folks reading...

 

[coazon de oro]

Homar,

I don't know what was being debated, as I wasn't there, but Dr. Glover never said one way or the other who he thought was up at the Onyx mines...Richard Sr. or "Dick" Jr...he just brought up that he couldn't tell which one was out of town based on the newspapers...Dr. Glover has always said in his books that he leans towards believing that Dick Jr. was at Waltz's death bead...He wrote: "My money is on Holmes" as to whether or not Holmes was there when Waltz died...you probably know that, just want to clarify for other folks reading...

Howdy Jim,

Thanks for clarifing that, I never read his book, my apologies to Dr. Glover. I do know that cactusjumper, and Hal were at least two who were assuring from that new information that Holmes was not with Waltz when he died. Since it fit cactusjumpers own assumtions of the Alkire story, but from three newspaper articles, the last one to chime in clarified it was Dick Holmes father the one who had been away at the mine. Many people had to have been pointing that confusion out for them to clarify which Dick Holmes had arrived. In the Alkire story, Julia met Holmes, and Roberts, and asked them to look after Waltz while she went to fetch the Doctor. Barks confirmes this when he stated seeing Holmes and Roberts grinding ore the next day. Julia also confirms it by claiming Holmes stole the candlebox ore.

Homar