Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

OldManOfTheRiver said:
Jim,
Great information there for sure. It is difficult to find the real truth in any of this. Over 100 years of innuendo and subterfuge by most parties have rendered the truth as it were as dead. There should be headstone over by J.W's grave for the truth as well. I really appreciate the provenance you provided. The cave faces north so it's impossible for the view from the cave to have Weaver's Needle in the field of view as it were. In order to see Weaver's or appreciate that view from a north facing cave then that would put the search area to the south of the Needle. (I think). It's much more likely that whatever meaning was attributed to this sketch that it likely occurred the view that Mr. Waltz had and tried to relay is of Weaver's to the south from a high enough vantage point to capture the sketch on Malapais where his initials were found and photographed but now seem to be lost. There once was a rock on the face of Malapais that had Jacob Waltz's initials in it, simply a J.W 1869 of which I have read. Mathew Roberts said that there were pictures of the initials but that the signature and date on Malapais have been destroyed. I have never seen said picture of his name and date other than his supposed initials over on Black Top Mesa which most people consider a fake. The Supes are a huge haystack and whatever it is we are all searching for is very small, 18 inch wide needle or perhaps even a cache or two.

Considering that one could see soldiers or a pack train on the Military Trail where it turns south it puts it in my mind that the mine faced north and the cave faced north (Per Waltz) and that it was high enough to have a pretty good view of three miles or so to the Military Trail. It is my opinion wherever that site is that it is looking down over the Military Trail right around where it turns south and goes down over the bridge at Fish Creek. I too don't put much stock in old maps or new ones even. If this thing were easy to find or even really existed it would have been found long ago and may have. Whatever was there and wherever it is likely long gone, but it will be fun to look and I appreciate the well wishes. We are getting a little nervous. I am going to bring some sage and some white and blue stones and treat the hike with total respect and honor in the expectation we will be allowed safe passage by the weather and Thunder Gods. I used to guide a lot on whitewater and learned that respect for the river is the only way to remain safe and it's no different for the mountains.

Thanks again Jim, heck the fun is in the search anyway!
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You ought to take some serious time and read up on the other, much older forum. There's a tremendous wealth of information left there by the giants of LDM researchers that have since passed on or left. Well worth your time.
 

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deducer said:
You ought to take some serious time and read up on the other, much older forum. There's a tremendous wealth of information left there by the giants of LDM researchers that have since passed on or left. Well worth your time.
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Ya. Already have man. Chasing ghosts. :) Lot's of deleted stuff too on there*and intentional misdirects. It's a crap shoot but good advice.

suspicious-cave-size-standard.jpg
 

truthseeker24 said:
Why would the posts be deleted? Why would there be intentional misdiercts?
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If you really want to find the LDM just pick a some cooler weather, take plenty of fluids, get drunker then hell, get lost, and fall into it. Kill a couple of miners after they show you their gold mine. Best chance you got. That's close to how Waltz found it. Only he spent the night with rattle snakes after fighting Indian's then became lost before he killed three Mexicans, stole their mine, dumped their horses, buried the bodies, and took the gold ore.
Do that and you're there!
 

Bill Riley said:
If you really want to find the LDM just pick a some cooler weather, take plenty of fluids, get drunker then hell, get lost, and fall into it. Kill a couple of miners after they show you their gold mine. Best chance you got. That's close to how Waltz found it. Only he spent the night with rattle snakes after fighting Indian's then became lost before he killed three Mexicans, stole their mine, dumped their horses, buried the bodies, and took the gold ore.
Do that and you're there!
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lol...pretty much...but seriously ...that mine isnt going to be found by a weekend warrior (if that was the case it would have been found many years ago)..there have been tens of thousands of people stumbling around up there for 120 years...that mine was covered up and my guess is you could walk right by it and never know..if that mine is ever found it will be by someone that has some inside info and has spent years and wore out many pairs of boots
 

azdave35 said:
lol...pretty much...but seriously ...that mine isnt going to be found by a weekend warrior (if that was the case it would have been found many years ago)..there have been tens of thousands of people stumbling around up there for 120 years...that mine was covered up and my guess is you could walk right by it and never know..if that mine is ever found it will be by someone that has some inside info and has spent years and wore out many pairs of boots
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I don't wanna find it. Close is good enough for me! You are correct though however Waltz may not have even covered it up to be honest. He might have killed the Mexicans stealing a cache and made up the mine part. YMMV. :)
 

truthseeker24 said:
Why would the posts be deleted? Why would there be intentional misdiercts?
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TruthSeeker: Whole threads over there by some posters have been edited/deleted. One poster's "inside information" posts number in the 100's and everyone of them now read "LDM" as the subject. They had a database issue some time ago and things got messed up pretty well but for the most part DUSA is a great read.
 

OldManOfTheRiver said:
TruthSeeker: Whole threads over there by some posters have been edited/deleted. One poster's "inside information" posts number in the 100's and everyone of them now read "LDM" as the subject. They had a database issue some time ago and things got messed up pretty well but for the most part DUSA is a great read.
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A "database issue" that affected one user? lol
I'm new but I'm not that new. Either that user gave out too much info and later regretted it or said user gave out bogus info and felt obligated to redact it.

Now, if we knew who this user was it would be easier to figure out why they deleted their info. If they gave out bogus info they could have been saving themselves from embarrassment or maybe from the possibility of future legal ramifications if someone were to take their bogus information seriously and thus suffer a monetary or physical injury/death. Not that postings on an online forum alone would be enough to bring a lawsuit but it would be enough to be used as evidence to help establish a pattern.
 

truthseeker24 said:
A "database issue" that affected one user? lol
I'm new but I'm not that new. Either that user gave out too much info and later regretted it or said user gave out bogus info and felt obligated to redact it.

Now, if we knew who this user was it would be easier to figure out why they deleted their info. If they gave out bogus info they could have been saving themselves from embarrassment or maybe from the possibility of future legal ramifications if someone were to take their bogus information seriously and thus suffer a monetary or physical injury/death. Not that postings on an online forum alone would be enough to bring a lawsuit but it would be enough to be used as evidence to help establish a pattern.
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Well the site went through a rough spot after Jim Hatt passed. It's a resource. Not sure if there is a big conspiracy to be honest.
 

truthseeker24 said:
A "database issue" that affected one user? lol
I'm new but I'm not that new. Either that user gave out too much info and later regretted it or said user gave out bogus info and felt obligated to redact it.

Now, if we knew who this user was it would be easier to figure out why they deleted their info. If they gave out bogus info they could have been saving themselves from embarrassment or maybe from the possibility of future legal ramifications if someone were to take their bogus information seriously and thus suffer a monetary or physical injury/death. Not that postings on an online forum alone would be enough to bring a lawsuit but it would be enough to be used as evidence to help establish a pattern.
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Haven't you found the truth yet seeker...Most of the information on this site is hearsay and bogus...Most posters on this site are reaching for straws and are very creative and imaginative...lol

Sure they post a lot of information that they have learned somewhere...But how much of it is actually factual???

Good luck in your search for the truth...

Ed T
 

JohnWhite said:
Haven't you found the truth yet seeker...Most of the information on this site is hearsay and bogus...Most posters on this site are reaching for straws and are very creative and imaginative...lol

Sure they post a lot of information that they have learned somewhere...But how much of it is actually factual???

Good luck in your search for the truth...

Ed T
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It's out there. Also I activated my dead mans switch today. If anything happens to my family the GPS coordinates will be posted far and wide. :)

Just for a measure of protection gentlemen. I am sure you understand. The coordinates are distributed amongst a handful of friends including members of this very forum.


That said, hope everyone has a good night. It's a lot of fun.

-Dusty
 

OldManOfTheRiver said:
Well the site went through a rough spot after Jim Hatt passed. It's a resource. Not sure if there is a big conspiracy to be honest.
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That's why I keep copies what is written that I have an interest in. Once I research the facts behind the story and end up in a dry hole, then I dump it. Everything else I keep.
Find out who the honest folks are on the forum and they may help you out...privately.

Dirt
 

JohnWhite said:
Haven't you found the truth yet seeker...Most of the information on this site is hearsay and bogus...Most posters on this site are reaching for straws and are very creative and imaginative...lol

Sure they post a lot of information that they have learned somewhere...But how much of it is actually factual???

Good luck in your search for the truth...

Ed T
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I'm afraid I haven't. Unfortunately only a handful of people know the answers to my questions. The one who knows the most can't be trusted to tell me truth. And the others I'm either too afraid to ask or they're too afraid to to help me, or unwilling to help me for some other personal reason.

I'm kind of stuck and I just started lol
 

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OldManOfTheRiver said:
Morning Jim. Hope everyone had a good weekend. Thanks for the articles sir. Here is something I have been playing with on GE. Who knows. He was feeble and old when he drew the 'sketch'. Thanks for putting those together. That is very kind of you and makes for some great reading. Grabbing those now.
View attachment 1644730

Edit: The scale of course is off and it's quite possible this is totally wrong. Some better image analysis software to truly manipulate the image to fit could really help. It wants to fit. Kinda!
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You stopping by the rendezvous
 

truthseeker24 said:
A "database issue" that affected one user? lol
I'm new but I'm not that new. Either that user gave out too much info and later regretted it or said user gave out bogus info and felt obligated to redact it.

Now, if we knew who this user was it would be easier to figure out why they deleted their info. If they gave out bogus info they could have been saving themselves from embarrassment or maybe from the possibility of future legal ramifications if someone were to take their bogus information seriously and thus suffer a monetary or physical injury/death. Not that postings on an online forum alone would be enough to bring a lawsuit but it would be enough to be used as evidence to help establish a pattern.
Click to expand...

No, he just got mad and deleted as many of his posts as he could find.

Jim Hatt, while a considerate and thoughtful person to those he knew and liked, could otherwise come across as very abrasive and too direct. He often spoke without a filter.
 

deducer said:
No, he just got mad and deleted as many of his posts as he could find.

Jim Hatt, while a considerate and thoughtful person to those he knew and liked, could otherwise come across as very abrasive and too direct. He often spoke without a filter.
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He got mad so he deleted his posts? The adult version of picking up your toys and going home lol...that actually makes the most sense.

What'd he get so mad about? Who hurt him?
 

Bicknell's Search, Part Two

So, yesterday I posted the 3 PC Bicknell LDM articles...priming the pump, so to speak....

It may not be a coincidence that Bicknell took off to search for the Doc Thorne (nice touch, he was actually searching for Waltz's mine) in November of 1894...especially with Frank Kirkland, and Kirkland's mining partner, Frank Luke...

Frank Luke and Frank Kirkland were mining men, partners in some rich mines, and were other things such as saloon operators...they also knew Gus Hirschfield....

Along about August of 1894, Gus Hirschfield gets a bond on the Bulldog in Goldfield...on the 19th of August, the AZ Republic reports Hirschfield leaves Phoenix for the mine...with Frank Kirkland...

Less than 3 months later, 09 November of 1894, Kirkland is searching for the LDM...

WHY? Perhaps while up in Goldfield, Kirkland was admiring Hirschfield's nice little matchbox, and a neat story ensued?

Kirkland takes with him his good friend and mining partner, Frank Luke...and some guy named P.C. Bicknell...a good prospector in his own right...who by the way has no doubt interviewed Juila Thomas, Rhinehart Petrash, and a probably very uncooperative Dick Holmes, about the LDM...Hmmm...could they be the first "Legends" Team? :icon_scratch:

View attachment 1645174
 

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