Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[PotBelly Jim]

Right on, Dave. The two things that put the lie to the legend:

1. That Waltz would've just left a rich gold mine unattended, to live in PHX as a chicken farmer, only going in a time or two to top off his candlebox under the bed...Not in a million years. It would've eaten away at him. The legends try to explain this as his reluctance because of deaths/murders. He would've gotten over that pretty quick, as he would have been worried sick that someone else would stumble on it...no matter how well he had hidden it.

2. Waltz never filed a claim on the "LDM". This also has to be explained away...he was no stranger to filing claims...the explanations as to why he never filed a claim just don't hold water for me.

If anyone thinks Waltz would've left that gold out there unattended, with no claim filed, here's my challenge...if you ever win the lottery, take the cash out into the Supes and hide it...live in a poor adobe...don't go out and check on the winnings except every now and then, only taking a few thousand out every few years. I don't think anyone could do it.

 

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[Cubfan64]

Right on, Dave. The two things that put the lie to the legend:

1. That Waltz would've just left a rich gold mine unattended, to live in PHX as a chicken farmer, only going in a time or two to top off his candlebox under the bed...Not in a million years. It would've eaten away at him. The legends try to explain this as his reluctance because of deaths/murders. He would've gotten over that pretty quick, as he would have been worried sick that someone else would stumble on it...no matter how well he had hidden it.

2. Waltz never filed a claim on the "LDM". This also has to be explained away...he was no stranger to filing claims...the explanations as to why he never filed a claim just don't hold water for me.

If anyone thinks Waltz would've left that gold out there unattended, with no claim filed, here's my challenge...if you ever win the lottery, take the cash out into the Supes and hide it...live in a poor adobe...don't go out and check on the winnings except every now and then, only taking a few thousand out every few years. I don't think anyone could do it.

Jim, a lot of times the simplest explanation ends up being the right one. I've heard a couple theories as to why Waltz may not have claimed his mine, but the simplest answer for me too is that he couldn't because it was already claimed. It fits in with why he had at least 2 caches out there as well as why he may not have gone out there more than a few times.

There's still lots of unanswered questions, but it's a reasonably good theory imho.

Your "challenge" question is a legitimate one too in my opinion. Sure there are examples of very wealthy people who prefer to live a modest if not poor outward lifestyle but I don't think that's the norm at all. Most people value security and money is one of the things that provides security.

 

[azdave35]

Right on, Dave. The two things that put the lie to the legend:

1. That Waltz would've just left a rich gold mine unattended, to live in PHX as a chicken farmer, only going in a time or two to top off his candlebox under the bed...Not in a million years. It would've eaten away at him. The legends try to explain this as his reluctance because of deaths/murders. He would've gotten over that pretty quick, as he would have been worried sick that someone else would stumble on it...no matter how well he had hidden it.

2. Waltz never filed a claim on the "LDM". This also has to be explained away...he was no stranger to filing claims...the explanations as to why he never filed a claim just don't hold water for me.

If anyone thinks Waltz would've left that gold out there unattended, with no claim filed, here's my challenge...if you ever win the lottery, take the cash out into the Supes and hide it...live in a poor adobe...don't go out and check on the winnings except every now and then, only taking a few thousand out every few years. I don't think anyone could do it.

yes jim...that is one thing that always bothered me about the ldm..why waltz only went a few times....nobody just deserts a honey hole...legend says he was afraid of apaches....by about 1880 the apaches were beat down..the only ones left that were trouble was geronimo and his band and he was never in the supers...he raided in southern az...not as much law down there to harass him...waltz was not afraid of the apache...he had to be dipping into someone else's honey hole

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Paul, might also explain why a certain guy was murdered with his shotgun, and the guy that supposedly did the shooting disappeared forever.

People doing illegal things often turn on each other.

I think the reason Waltz kept his gold largely hidden was because he didnt want to be the obvious suspect if the theft was ever detected...and why he kept the caches in the desert. Not a good idea to keep stolen gold on your own property.

 

[azdave35]

Paul, might also explain why a certain guy was murdered with his shotgun, and the guy that supposedly did the shooting disappeared forever.

People doing illegal things often turn on each other.

I think the reason Waltz kept his gold largely hidden was because he didnt want to be the obvious suspect if the theft was ever detected...and why he kept the caches in the desert. Not a good idea to keep stolen gold on your own property.

if a guy can believe the holmes version waltz had alot of guilt at the end of his life

 

[azdave35]

Paul, might also explain why a certain guy was murdered with his shotgun, and the guy that supposedly did the shooting disappeared forever.

People doing illegal things often turn on each other.

I think the reason Waltz kept his gold largely hidden was because he didnt want to be the obvious suspect if the theft was ever detected...and why he kept the caches in the desert. Not a good idea to keep stolen gold on your own property.

another useless clue that might not be so useless...he supposedly said no miner will ever find my mine...maybe because another miner already had it claimed

 

[Cubfan64]

...there was an illegal dig south of tortilla flat (im sure you have heard about it)..if not pm me and i'll give you coords....i was at the site 12 or so years ago and someone had sunk a shaft 12 or 15 ft deep...then a short tunnel at the bottom...when they were done they left their tools..generator...drill..jackhammer..ect..my guess is they got a very rich pocket that pinched out.....i also saw where they had drilled into some quartz stringers but stopped....i took some of that quartz from the stringers and assayed it..it ran 4 opt....and the entire country was dacite and tuff...so much for gold not being in volcanics...

Dave - I'm pretty sure I know where you're talking about - thought it was more E/SE of Tortilla Flat than just S but it's been awhile since I looked at those notes. Is that the one a friend of ours called the "H.t....d" mine because of a name on something left out there? If so, I climbed up there maybe 6 years or so ago (the description sounds the same) 12-15 feet deep with a side tunnel, a generator and lots of misc.. "garbage" left around the site and a cheap wobbly tripod setup over the hole. The only mineralization I noticed was a green stain of copper along one of the walls going down. I'll send you the coordinates tonight as well as a couple photos I took - you can let me know if I was at the same spot you're talking about.

 

[azdave35]

Dave - I'm pretty sure I know where you're talking about - thought it was more E/SE of Tortilla Flat than just S but it's been awhile since I looked at those notes. Is that the one a friend of ours called the "H.t....d" mine because of a name on something left out there? If so, I climbed up there maybe 6 years or so ago (the description sounds the same) 12-15 feet deep with a side tunnel, a generator and lots of misc.. "garbage" left around the site and a cheap wobbly tripod setup over the hole. The only mineralization I noticed was a green stain of copper along one of the walls going down. I'll send you the coordinates tonight as well as a couple photos I took - you can let me know if I was at the same spot you're talking about.

yep..sounds about right...more s/e than south.....did you see the drill holes to the south of the shaft?...when in volcanic areas you have to pay a little more attention to detail...the mineralized spot wont stick out like it does in other areas...in most areas you know you are getting into a mineralized area by the colors...the ground will start to change to a red color...you might see streaks of color (red,green or black) on the walls...but in a volcanic area the signs will be more subtle....like you said..a bit of copper stain or if you start seeing quartz stringers...its time to investigate more closely

 

[wrmickel1]

another useless clue that might not be so useless...he supposedly said no miner will ever find my mine...maybe because another miner already had it claimed

Or it’s mesothermal on the west side. Which takes a upright tunnel down 70 ft to hit the mesothremal quarts vain. There are more pit mines in the Supers then the one you all claim is it.

babymick1

 

[azdave35]

Or it’s mesothermal on the west side. Which takes a upright tunnel down 70 ft to hit the mesothremal quarts vain. There are more pit mines in the Supers then the one you all claim is it.

babymick1[/QUOTE
why sure mick...do they have any brass nuggets or gold painted 2x4s in them?

 

[wrmickel1]

Sure in your mind Dave, But the fact is there are other pit mines in the Supers on the west side. Now for someone who says he never looked for it was looking fo something on the west side.

Babymick1

 

[azdave35]

Sure in your mind Dave, But the fact is there are other pit mines in the Supers on the west side. Now for someone who says he never looked for it was looking fo something on the west side.

Babymick1

mick....none of us believe you have ever been to arizona...much less the west side of the superstitions

 

[wrmickel1]

That’s good Dave

But let’s see I was at a Dutchman’s thing once, I believe the guy at the gate was Wright or something like that the time I was there base jumpers were jumping and Joe made Chile, I think it was Joe.
This year I stayed a cabin at the KOA and last time in a cabin at the Lost Dutchman’s Park.
I’ve had a house in Golden Valley and talked to Ron at the OK Corral. I’ve owned a house in Mesa crescent circle Drive work 2 years on building the golf course on Power Rd. and the Superstition Highway ended on power. Wasn’t Finished.
And was one of the workers on the 26 story Sky Scraper in Phoenix. But know I was never there.



And That the little Lady not playing in Garden Valley

babymick1

 

[azdave35]

That’s good Dave

But let’s see I was at a Dutchman’s thing once, I believe the guy at the gate was Wright or something like that the time I was there base jumpers were jumping and Joe made Chile, I think it was Joe.
This year I stayed a cabin at the KOA and last time in a cabin at the Lost Dutchman’s Park.
I’ve had a house in Golden Valley and talked to Ron at the OK Corral. I’ve owned a house in Mesa crescent circle Drive work 2 years on building the golf course on Power Rd. and the Superstition Highway ended on power. Wasn’t Finished.
And was one of the workers on the 26 story Sky Scraper in Phoenix. But know I was never there.

View attachment 1916003

And That the little Lady not playing in Garden Valley

babymick1

sure mick

 

[PotBelly Jim]

if a guy can believe the holmes version waltz had alot of guilt at the end of his life

Problem is, I don't believe any of the stories. Never have. There is nothing about the LDM that I'm certain of...and that includes the "surviving LDM" ore coming out of a hidden mine in the Supes that nobody but Waltz knew about.

Being there's usually a nugget of truth in any old legend, I do believe Waltz told Holmes some things. I highly doubt that this conversation ever was, or is today, public knowledge. I also highly doubt Julia/Rhiney/Herman ever told the truth about what they were looking for. But like Holmes's version, there most likely are some nuggets of truth in their stories.

Waltz told Holmes the last time he was at the mine was in 1884. Did he actually mean the cache(s)? I don't know, and neither does anyone else. Pedro Ortega was also murdered on Waltz's homestead, with Waltz's shotgun, in 1884. Nobody, not even the newsmen reporting on it, believed the story of how it supposedly happened. 1884 could be a key date in what actually happened in Waltz's life and how he came by his gold.

Was the source of Waltz's gold on Roger's Ridge? Nobody can say for sure, but Waltz would've been aware of mineral discovery there (it was in the papers, and he lived in PHX at the time). My own research indicates these mines were not exploited until a few years after the discovery was reported in the papers, and that same research indicates this area WAS NOT continuously inhabited by miners...in reality, the mines in that district were worked sporadically, and any actual mining activity happened in spurts and not every mine was active at the same time. And last, but not least, there were far more actual shafts sunk in the area than most people are aware of. Lots of opportunities. And there could have been surface indications on claims that the owners had missed or ignored.

All I can say about it, is the source of Waltz's gold is almost certainly in or near the Supes, based on where Holmes and Julia searched. And, I think if it were able to be claimed, Waltz probably would have done so based on his past behavior. So it's very possible he high-graded ore from somewhere. And the Petrasches lodged a mineral claim near Roger's Trough. I can't say for sure what happened, but Roger's Ridge vicinity seems like a good candidate.

 

[Cubfan64]

Problem is, I don't believe any of the stories. Never have. There is nothing about the LDM that I'm certain of...and that includes the "surviving LDM" ore coming out of a hidden mine in the Supes that nobody but Waltz knew about.

Being there's usually a nugget of truth in any old legend, I do believe Waltz told Holmes some things. I highly doubt that this conversation ever was, or is today, public knowledge. I also highly doubt Julia/Rhiney/Herman ever told the truth about what they were looking for. But like Holmes's version, there most likely are some nuggets of truth in their stories.

Waltz told Holmes the last time he was at the mine was in 1884. Did he actually mean the cache(s)? I don't know, and neither does anyone else. Pedro Ortega was also murdered on Waltz's homestead, with Waltz's shotgun, in 1884. Nobody, not even the newsmen reporting on it, believed the story of how it supposedly happened. 1884 could be a key date in what actually happened in Waltz's life and how he came by his gold.

Was the source of Waltz's gold on Roger's Ridge? Nobody can say for sure, but Waltz would've been aware of mineral discovery there (it was in the papers, and he lived in PHX at the time). My own research indicates these mines were not exploited until a few years after the discovery was reported in the papers, and that same research indicates this area WAS NOT continuously inhabited by miners...in reality, the mines in that district were worked sporadically, and any actual mining activity happened in spurts and not every mine was active at the same time. And last, but not least, there were far more actual shafts sunk in the area than most people are aware of. Lots of opportunities. And there could have been surface indications on claims that the owners had missed or ignored.

All I can say about it, is the source of Waltz's gold is almost certainly in or near the Supes, based on where Holmes and Julia searched. And, I think if it were able to be claimed, Waltz probably would have done so based on his past behavior. So it's very possible he high-graded ore from somewhere. And the Petrasches lodged a mineral claim near Roger's Trough. I can't say for sure what happened, but Roger's Ridge vicinity seems like a good candidate.

Well said Jim. I also believe the people who removed that rich gold ore from the "Pit Mine" / Silver Chief in recent history had the knowledge, means and ability to have their ore tested using today's technology and compare it to testing done on the matchbox/matchbox ore. I believe it probably matches well enough that a conclusion was drawn that they both came from the same source. Whether they really are or not I'd never be able to tell but people with a lot of knowledge about mining and ore have come to that conclusion. Of course it's always possible there are other veins out there with the same or very similar makeup.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Well said Jim. I also believe the people who removed that rich gold ore from the "Pit Mine" / Silver Chief in recent history had the knowledge, means and ability to have their ore tested using today's technology and compare it to testing done on the matchbox/matchbox ore. I believe it probably matches well enough that a conclusion was drawn that they both came from the same source. Whether they really are or not I'd never be able to tell but people with a lot of knowledge about mining and ore have come to that conclusion. Of course it's always possible there are other veins out there with the same or very similar makeup.

There's a bit of a disconnect between where that "recent" ore was said to have come from, and the description of the Silver Chief shaft, as described in the 1880's...so I wouldn't be surprised if I don't have anything close to the REAL story of where that ore came from...nor do I really want to know some things are just better left unasked/unsaid. Then again, it never really mattered to me if the LDM was found or still out there...being as I've never bothered to look for it. People who are hoping to find it some day would probably see things differently.

 

[gollum]

There's a bit of a disconnect between where that "recent" ore was said to have come from, and the description of the Silver Chief shaft, as described in the 1880's...so I wouldn't be surprised if I don't have anything close to the REAL story of where that ore came from...nor do I really want to know some things are just better left unasked/unsaid. Then again, it never really mattered to me if the LDM was found or still out there...being as I've never bothered to look for it. People who are hoping to find it some day would probably see things differently.

Hey Buddy,

Nah. The Silver Chief was not the LDM (about 95% certain). There are a lot of reasons for me to say that, and they mostly rely on some clues that aren't well known, but what can be verified has been with someone who is as close to 100% honest as you can get in Arizona. LOL

Its gonna take several trips (or maybe not, my guess) just to make a search area smaller. Might be a total bust, but it doesn't seem so.

Take Care - Mike

 

[RockyGoltra]

Joe

I am not interested in the Pit mine story . I didn't waste my time to see it even in GE . You know the real modern story of the Pit mine , and that's good . You know a secret story and I know many other . Everybody with their secret stories .

And why I'm sure Waltz was never at the Milk ranch ?

1- There don't exist any document or oral story which tells how Waltz was ever to the MIlk ranch .

2- The Milk ranch location was not in the way to the LDM , in regards with the clues that gave Waltz to Julia , as starting point the SW corner of the SUperstitions to Sombrero Butte .

3- Waltz told how in the board house from where they would started the trip to the LDM , lived Mrs Cavaness . So , Mrs Cavaness lived at what today is the Quarter Cicle U ranch , and was the board house that Waltz had meant .

Markmar, is there a private function through this platform?

 

[markmar]

Markmar, is there a private function through this platform?

Yes, clik on my avatar and select " start conversation ". Will be a private message.