Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[deducer]

Deducer,

It would not have been too difficult for Juan I to become a Jesuit Lay Brother. He was not a Jesuit Priest by any stretch.

Mike

Mike, that is what I said- he was made a "Jesuit brother." No more, no less.

 

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[Oroblanco]

Hey Homar,

Not to respond or comment between you and Paul...but a question from the peanut gallery, if you will...

If there existed, at that time, a few doors down from Goldman's, a means of assaying gold ore...it seems to me that by the very nature of that assay, there existed the means to process said ore...especially if it were less than 50lbs...would an iron ball mill, and the equipment used to conduct the assay, be all that was needed to process said ore into its various parts of gold, silver, and dross?...and then as you said, a purchaser would be able to purchase the gold...having taken a fairly deep dive into chemistry in college, I'm tempted to see this as a fairly rudimentary process...but as a lifelong student of the college of hard knocks, I'm certain I'm missing the real info...

I'm hoping that you, Roy, and Dave will take the time to answer what I'm asking in layman's terms...laborious as it is...

Hope all is well with you Homar...take care, Jim

Well I wasn't there at the time so don't really know the answer, especially when some assayers were also buyers of gold and ore. Not all were buyers however. We have the story from Holmes that he needed the money to pursue the search, and Goldman's had been running advertisements like this one :


- clearly offering to buy virtually anything for folks in need of ready cash. It would be perfectly normal for them to demand an assay of ore before buying it, for the reasons already posted by others here. It looks like Holmes was telling the truth, he needed the cash right away (rather than shipping the ore out to a smelter somewhere or the US Mint) and Goldman's would buy, with an assay of course. I can't speculate the reasoning about the choices of what specimens were kept versus those sold.

Interesting about Juan de Anza (I) becoming a Jesuit brother, had never heard that before, thanks for sharing it.

Please do continue;

 

[Azquester]

HAHAHAHA

Come on Bill. It woulda been kinda hard for Juan II to have been made a Jesuit Lay Brother "prior to 1729" when he was born in 1735!

Mike

I meant which one became a Jesuit brother, as I found no evidence to the contrary.

I thought he may have gotten mixed up about the Father, Son, or Holy Ghost!

 

[cactusjumper]

Well I wasn't there at the time so don't really know the answer, especially when some assayers were also buyers of gold and ore. Not all were buyers however. We have the story from Holmes that he needed the money to pursue the search, and Goldman's had been running advertisements like this one :

View attachment 1642036
- clearly offering to buy virtually anything for folks in need of ready cash. It would be perfectly normal for them to demand an assay of ore before buying it, for the reasons already posted by others here. It looks like Holmes was telling the truth, he needed the cash right away (rather than shipping the ore out to a smelter somewhere or the US Mint) and Goldman's would buy, with an assay of course. I can't speculate the reasoning about the choices of what specimens were kept versus those sold.

Interesting about Juan de Anza (I) becoming a Jesuit brother, had never heard that before, thanks for sharing it.

Please do continue;

Roy,

Hope all is well and you, Beth and the pups are staying warm.

Nice post, but I don't believe the US Mints were purchasing "ore" in those days. I could, of course, be wrong.

Carolyn and Smoky are doing well, although our pup only has two teeth left. I seem to be more down than up these days, but still hope to make it down for the Rendezvous.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Roy,

Hope all is well and you, Beth and the pups are staying warm.

Nice post, but I don't believe the US Mints were purchasing "ore" in those days. I could, of course, be wrong.

Carolyn and Smoky are doing well, although our pup only has two teeth left. I seem to be more down than up these days, but still hope to make it down for the Rendezvous.

Take care,

Joe

Hey Joe,

Tom's memorial on Saturday was like a Rendezvous with more Old Timers than any Rendezvous in recent times. Right at the end, the rain let up, and a big rainbow ended on Superstition Mountain. Very touching.

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Hey Joe,

Tom's memorial on Saturday was like a Rendezvous with more Old Timers than any Rendezvous in recent times. Right at the end, the rain let up, and a big rainbow ended on Superstition Mountain. Very touching.

Mike

Mike,

I could not imagine it would be any other way. I am a little upset that I missed the memorial, as the person who told me he would let me know when it was scheduled did not call me.

I hope the vultures who rush to pick over the bones of our dead historians, like Tom, will give Sharon some space to grieve. Tom and I talked a number of times about our mortality and he asked my advice on what he should do with his collection. I told him it belonged at one of the universities or the Arizona Historical Museum. I hope that's where it will end up.

Thank you for the post.

Take care,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

Mike,

I could not imagine it would be any other way. I am a little upset that I missed the memorial, as the person who told me he would let me know when it was scheduled did not call me.

I hope the vultures who rush to pick over the bones of our dead historians, like Tom, will give Sharon some space to grieve. Tom and I talked a number of times about our mortality and he asked my advice on what he should do with his collection. I told him it belonged at one of the universities or the Arizona Historical Museum. I hope that's where it will end up.

Thank you for the post.

Take care,

Joe

joe...i thought you knew about the memorial service....i guess i should have posted on here..sorry about that joe..mike...i must have missed you at the memorial..there were alot of people there

 

[gollum]

joe...i thought you knew about the memorial service....i guess i should have posted on here..sorry about that joe..mike...i must have missed you at the memorial..there were alot of people there

Wish I had known as well. Sorry about that Joe.

About his stuff, it is my understanding that he is splitting it up between UofA and a smaller place, but Frank can give the details.

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Just to clarify

Roy,

Hope all is well and you, Beth and the pups are staying warm.

Nice post, but I don't believe the US Mints were purchasing "ore" in those days. I could, of course, be wrong.

Carolyn and Smoky are doing well, although our pup only has two teeth left. I seem to be more down than up these days, but still hope to make it down for the Rendezvous.

Take care,

Joe

Hi Joe, all is well here just wish we could have made it to the rendezvous to see you. Unfortunately they changed the date and Beth could not change her vacation time so we will be missing it again this year.

I believe you are mistaken. There are numerous mentions of the newspapers of that time, talking about shipping ores to the US Mint. It was more advantageous to have your ore milled and then sent to the mint, because the charges for refining were subtracted by the Mint from the proceeds. Here is one example of many:
<Begin extract>
"Shipments of ore made in April last to the United States Mint, San Francisco, net him 9 ounces gold, 200 ounces silver per ton according to returns shown me. " <end extract from:>

Arizona weekly citizen., August 15, 1891 pp3

The Annual Report of the Director of the Mint for 1891 includes an explanation of the costs for the smelting operations of the Mint, although I forgot the page and accidently closed the window it was open in, you can easily find it on Google books if you wish.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Jim,

The man who showed Feldman that Pit Mine did not work it, or even go into it. When he found it, it was covered over. The finder told me the story personally. His word was as good as "gold" for me. I believe it was a worked out silver mine that was used to cache a horde of gold.

Three men rode up to that mine and observed two dug out caches as they approached it. One of the men was the finder, the other was the man who eventually opened it up over a three year period, working only in the summer months. Two of those men told me the same story sitting in my front room. The third man, who shall remain nameless, was the same man who took the pictures of the Kochera Ore. I asked him if he thought that ore came out of the Pit Man, and he said he was sure it did. He would be in a position to know.

Many of you folks can connect the dots here, except for who that third man was. If any of you know who worked that mine, and I know plenty of you do, you can ask him how close my story fits the facts of that ride up to the mine. I would bet a lot of money on the truth of the story. Eventually I will probably name the finder of that mine, or at least the man who showed it to those who worked it. It was an old, old mine.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

I remember when you started posting D.L.'s pics of the pit mine on the other forum...I think it was 2008, but I may be wrong...anyway, at the time, I don't think it was public knowledge where the pit mine was located...at least I don't think anyone had posted the location back then...so I wasn't sure, at the time, where it was...

I did everything in reverse...first, I read Crooked Mtn, back in 2002 I think...years later, I saw the pics you posted...then I read the new edition of Lost Eldorado of Jacob Waltz (San Felice)...by that point other people had posted the pit mine's location...I've only been in Rogers Canyon once in my whole life, and frankly didn't remember enough about that trip to figure out it was the area of the pit mine anyway...so what I had read in Crooked Mtn years before, didn't register with me...

I just thought it was funny, after years of researching how the pit mine did, or did not, fit any of the "clues", I pick up my copy of Crooked Mtn and there it is, all laid out for me...Ron had figured out all that stuff PRIOR to his book being printed 18 years ago, and it was right under everyone's nose for all that time...he describes how the clues fit, how to get there, the surrounding area, the ridge, the rock formations, the concentrates cave, the placer location, and the actual inside of the mine, EVERYTHING, all in explicit detail...the book came out shortly after the "end point" of whoever was working that mine in 1999, so I suspect Ron must have known about and been looking at this location for a long time even prior to that...

What I would like to hear now, is the story of how they got to that point...I don't know if Ron even has the energy or cares enough to put another book together...but the story of discovery is sure one I would like to hear...if you go to the Rendezvous, or talk to him at some other point, please pass that wish on to him...I'm sure I'm not the only one...

Take care, Jim

 

[gollum]

Hey Joe,

Just so you know, Toms stuff is being split between UofA and the Apache Junction Library.

Mike

 

[azdave35]

Hey Joe,

Just so you know, Toms stuff is being split between UofA and the Apache Junction Library.

Mike

excellent!!!!

 

[coazon de oro]

Joe,

I remember when you started posting D.L.'s pics of the pit mine on the other forum...I think it was 2008, but I may be wrong...anyway, at the time, I don't think it was public knowledge where the pit mine was located...at least I don't think anyone had posted the location back then...so I wasn't sure, at the time, where it was...

I did everything in reverse...first, I read Crooked Mtn, back in 2002 I think...years later, I saw the pics you posted...then I read the new edition of Lost Eldorado of Jacob Waltz (San Felice)...by that point other people had posted the pit mine's location...I've only been in Rogers Canyon once in my whole life, and frankly didn't remember enough about that trip to figure out it was the area of the pit mine anyway...so what I had read in Crooked Mtn years before, didn't register with me...

I just thought it was funny, after years of researching how the pit mine did, or did not, fit any of the "clues", I pick up my copy of Crooked Mtn and there it is, all laid out for me...Ron had figured out all that stuff PRIOR to his book being printed 18 years ago, and it was right under everyone's nose for all that time...he describes how the clues fit, how to get there, the surrounding area, the ridge, the rock formations, the concentrates cave, the placer location, and the actual inside of the mine, EVERYTHING, all in explicit detail...the book came out shortly after the "end point" of whoever was working that mine in 1999, so I suspect Ron must have known about and been looking at this location for a long time even prior to that...

What I would like to hear now, is the story of how they got to that point...I don't know if Ron even has the energy or cares enough to put another book together...but the story of discovery is sure one I would like to hear...if you go to the Rendezvous, or talk to him at some other point, please pass that wish on to him...I'm sure I'm not the only one...

Take care, Jim

Howdy Jim,

I beg do differ on LDM clues fitting the Pit Mine. Some LDM clues can fit anywhere, like the God forsaken place it's in. Other than stories, which of Waltz's clue's fit the Pit Mine? When David said that the Kochera ore matched that of the Pit Mine, which Pit mine was he referring too? The Pit mine he showed Ron, or the Pit mine of Silas Haywood map that many claim is the LDM?

You see, Ron claims that the Kochera ore matches that of the matchbox, but the Dutchman ore was assayed at $110,000/ton @ $20.67 per oz., thats 5,321 oz/ton with the matchbox estimated by mass, and weight, at $250,000. Kochera ore I recall (could be wrong) was assayed to be $49,000/ton @ $35.35 per oz. thats 1,406 oz/ton.

Furthermore, Sillas Haywood said the gold vein was in soft black rock. So Kochera's ore did not come from Haywoods mine, nor did it come from David's Pit mine because Sarge said the Pit mine gold had too much copper and does not match that of the matchbox. What I will admit is that Kochera's ore may have come from the LDM from an area not as rich as where the matchbox ore came from.

And speaking of Dutchman ore, where did the late George J. get his numbers? If memory serves me right I belive he said the LDM ore was 2,200 oz/ton.

Homar

 

[azdave35]

Howdy Jim,

I beg do differ on LDM clues fitting the Pit Mine. Some LDM clues can fit anywhere, like the God forsaken place it's in. Other than stories, which of Waltz's clue's fit the Pit Mine? When David said that the Kochera ore matched that of the Pit Mine, which Pit mine was he referring too? The Pit mine he showed Ron, or the Pit mine of Silas Haywood map that many claim is the LDM?

You see, Ron claims that the Kochera ore matches that of the matchbox, but the Dutchman ore was assayed at $110,000/ton @ $20.67 per oz., thats 5,321 oz/ton with the matchbox estimated by mass, and weight, at $250,000. Kochera ore I recall (could be wrong) was assayed to be $49,000/ton @ $35.35 per oz. thats 1,406 oz/ton.

Furthermore, Sillas Haywood said the gold vein was in soft black rock. So Kochera's ore did not come from Haywoods mine, nor did it come from David's Pit mine because Sarge said the Pit mine gold had too much copper and does not match that of the matchbox. What I will admit is that Kochera's ore may have come from the LDM from an area not as rich as where the matchbox ore came from.

And speaking of Dutchman ore, where did the late George J. get his numbers? If memory serves me right I belive he said the LDM ore was 2,200 oz/ton.

Homar

homar...you need to understand the art of assaying...when you do an assay you are just testing that little piece of ore you are assaying (one ounce of ore)..if you have 5 lbs of ore and you grab the richest piece and assay it..the numbers are going to be pretty high..if you grab the poorest piece the numbers are going to be weak..in other words if you did assays on 10 different samples from the same vein..the numbers will be all over the board..especially when the ore is that rich...in order to get a better idea of how rich the vein is running you would need to do multiple (dozens) assays up and down the vein from top to bottom and average them out..then you would have an idea of how the vein is trending...but you CANNOT judge a deposit from a single assay...you guys need to stop basing your research on the single assay that has been provided...it really means nothing

 

[markmar]

Homar

Also Doc Thorne's assay on the ore he took from the Supers , was at 2,200 oz per ton . So , this could be the correct average of that vein .

 

[OldManOfTheRiver]

Sorry but the Pit Mine is a lot further than 5 miles from the center of Weavers Needle. The ore doesn't match either and the Pit was a silver mine.

 

[sgtfda]

Sorry but the Pit Mine is a lot further than 5 miles from the center of Weavers Needle. The ore doesn't match either and the Pit was a silver mine.

The 5 mile thing is just Bicknell bull. He wanted to keep everyone out of his search area. The gold is on the eastern and western side of the mountain. His area was on the eastern side.

 

[sgtfda]

Jim,

The man who showed Feldman that Pit Mine did not work it, or even go into it. When he found it, it was covered over. The finder told me the story personally. His word was as good as "gold" for me. I believe it was a worked out silver mine that was used to cache a horde of gold.

Three men rode up to that mine and observed two dug out caches as they approached it. One of the men was the finder, the other was the man who eventually opened it up over a three year period, working only in the summer months. Two of those men told me the same story sitting in my front room. The third man, who shall remain nameless, was the same man who took the pictures of the Kochera Ore. I asked him if he thought that ore came out of the Pit Man, and he said he was sure it did. He would be in a position to know.

Many of you folks can connect the dots here, except for who that third man was. If any of you know who worked that mine, and I know plenty of you do, you can ask him how close my story fits the facts of that ride up to the mine. I would bet a lot of money on the truth of the story. Eventually I will probably name the finder of that mine, or at least the man who showed it to those who worked it. It was an old, old mine.

Take care,

Joe

Joe. Your right on. The finder told me the same story. I think it's best to let sleeping dogs lay. Could cause issues for the families.

 

[Cubfan64]

homar...you need to understand the art of assaying...when you do an assay you are just testing that little piece of ore you are assaying (one ounce of ore)..if you have 5 lbs of ore and you grab the richest piece and assay it..the numbers are going to be pretty high..if you grab the poorest piece the numbers are going to be weak..in other words if you did assays on 10 different samples from the same vein..the numbers will be all over the board..especially when the ore is that rich...in order to get a better idea of how rich the vein is running you would need to do multiple (dozens) assays up and down the vein from top to bottom and average them out..then you would have an idea of how the vein is trending...but you CANNOT judge a deposit from a single assay...you guys need to stop basing your research on the single assay that has been provided...it really means nothing

More concisely said that I've been able to say for awhile now!! Thanks

Being an analytical chemist in the industry testing powders and solids, the instrument analysis is almost always the least variable component of the entire "test method." Not nearly enough attention is ever given to sampling and sample preparation.

 

[coazon de oro]

homar...you need to understand the art of assaying...when you do an assay you are just testing that little piece of ore you are assaying (one ounce of ore)..if you have 5 lbs of ore and you grab the richest piece and assay it..the numbers are going to be pretty high..if you grab the poorest piece the numbers are going to be weak..in other words if you did assays on 10 different samples from the same vein..the numbers will be all over the board..especially when the ore is that rich...in order to get a better idea of how rich the vein is running you would need to do multiple (dozens) assays up and down the vein from top to bottom and average them out..then you would have an idea of how the vein is trending...but you CANNOT judge a deposit from a single assay...you guys need to stop basing your research on the single assay that has been provided...it really means nothing

Howdy Dave,

Yes, this is the reason that I admitted that Kochera ore like Ron stated, could be from the LDM, just from a different area of that vein not as rich as where the matchbox ore came out of.

What I don't agree with Ron is that it matches the ore that may have been stoped from the Silver Chief because Frank concluded that gold from the Silver Chief has too much copper to be Dutchman ore.

Some assume it may have been a cache, but this is just based on empty holes.

Homar