Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[PotBelly Jim]

Hey Homar,

I never could figure out myself which one it was that was up at the Onyx mines...I've had my doubts about Holmes getting the big deathbed confession from Waltz, but I have my doubts about everything so what's new...hope you are staying safe with all that flooding down there...

Just heard that a man had an accident and fell down a mineshaft in Aguila...from his name, it sounds like he might be from one of our pioneer families in AZ...anyway, he broke both legs and was stuck down there for days, had to kill 3 rattlesnakes that were in there with him...he must've been eating his Wheaties...thank God one of his friends knew where to look for him, they got him out in time...

 

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[truthseeker24]

Hi Joe- I'm sorry for your loss and I appologize for reaching out to you in this manner. I would like to speak with you and I sent you a private message.

 

[cactusjumper]

Hi Joe- I'm sorry for your loss and I appologize for reaching out to you in this manner. I would like to speak with you and I sent you a private message.

T.S.,

Every once in awhile I receive a request for a private conversation with someone I don't know. There are some low scoundrels out there, so I don't get involved. If I do, it's because we have shared our personal information. Real name, address, phone number and email address. If you want to do that, we can talk. There are many people who have the information you seek.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[truthseeker24]

Ok, gotcha.

 

[truthseeker24]

Of there are others, could you point me in their direction? Or them to me? I do have an issue with knowing who to trust. I've scoured through a lot of data and IMHO you stood out as not only very honest but you really seem to value discretion, both of which are necessary.

 

[azdave35]

Of there are others, could you point me in their direction? Or them to me? I do have an issue with knowing who to trust. I've scoured through a lot of data and IMHO you stood out as not only very honest but you really seem to value discretion, both of which are necessary.

why dont you just post on here..someone will be able to answer your questions

 

[Oroblanco]

Of there are others, could you point me in their direction? Or them to me? I do have an issue with knowing who to trust. I've scoured through a lot of data and IMHO you stood out as not only very honest but you really seem to value discretion, both of which are necessary.

Don't trust anyone including me, when it involves treasure hunting. Just remember that every treasure hunter is hunting for treasures and that can affect what they might tell you. But I agree with AZDave just go ahead and let your questions fly with both barrels, someone will be able to answer them.

Please do continue

 

[OldManOfTheRiver]

Don't trust anyone including me, when it involves treasure hunting. Just remember that every treasure hunter is hunting for treasures and that can affect what they might tell you. But I agree with AZDave just go ahead and let your questions fly with both barrels, someone will be able to answer them.

Please do continue

After years of research I've come to the conclusion Jacob Walzer was a weed dealer. It was real big back in pioneer Phoenix. He planted his 160 acre farm and then hauled it up into the Supes to cure it. Natives, Mexicans, people from all around came to see him and trade gold for it.

The candle box was his re-up money/seed stash/cigar box bank. If you really search the net you can still find labels for Old Dutchman's Best Blend. He got lost because it was THAT good.

Do carry on folks. I am just playing around. Or am I?

#originalgermanOGwaltz

 

[azdave35]

After years of research I've come to the conclusion Jacob Walzer was a weed dealer. It was real big back in pioneer Phoenix. He planted his 160 acre farm and then hauled it up into the Supes to cure it. Natives, Mexicans, people from all around came to see him and trade gold for it.

The candle box was his re-up money/seed stash/cigar box bank. If you really search the net you can still find labels for Old Dutchman's Best Blend. He got lost because it was THAT good.

Do carry on folks. I am just playing around. Or am I?

#originalgermanOGwaltz

thats better than most of the theories i've seen posted on here

 

[PotBelly Jim]

After years of research I've come to the conclusion Jacob Walzer was a weed dealer. It was real big back in pioneer Phoenix. He planted his 160 acre farm and then hauled it up into the Supes to cure it. Natives, Mexicans, people from all around came to see him and trade gold for it.

The candle box was his re-up money/seed stash/cigar box bank. If you really search the net you can still find labels for Old Dutchman's Best Blend. He got lost because it was THAT good.

Do carry on folks. I am just playing around. Or am I?

#originalgermanOGwaltz

Dusty, if you find OG Waltz's stash on your upcoming trip, don't rush to fire it up...the Indians thought Reavis was nuts because they saw him dancing naked outside his cabin...what really happened was Reavis had a bad trip after toking some OGW that had been cached in an old mine, and it had wicked mold on that bud...beware dude...

 

[nobodie]

UNBELIEVABLE.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

UNBELIEVABLE.

Just kidding, Nobodie…everyone here knows it’s not true, but for anyone just starting out that sees this…here’s a link to the real story of Elsiha Reavis, and his naked one-man charge into a pack of hostiles, told by the best historian we may ever know:


Tom Kollenborn Chronicles: The Old Hermit Elisha M. Reavis


I usually get up before the sun, and in those quiet hours I sit with a cup of coffee to check the forums, look to see if Tom K has posted anything, check the papers, etc…it just hit me that there’s never going to be anything new on Tom’s blog…it’s never going to be the same…


I was never able to meet Mr. Kollenborn…I wish I had…we just lost one of our family patriarchs last night, who was probably a lot like Tom…He was born and raised in a Mormon family near Superior…worked for SRP for many decades, much of it on the Apache Trail going between the dams…served a tour in the Air Force in Vietnam…and was a cowboy…if they never met in life, I hope they meet topside…I think they had a lot in common, including an understanding of the old Arizona, which has drifted away like so much dust in the wind…

 

[truthseeker24]

Don't trust anyone including me, when it involves treasure hunting. Just remember that every treasure hunter is hunting for treasures and that can affect what they might tell you. But I agree with AZDave just go ahead and let your questions fly with both barrels, someone will be able to answer them.

Please do continue

I'm looking for information on what you may have referred to as "the Forrest Gump of the mining world" the FGMW if you will.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

PC Bicknell LDM Articles

While discussing whether or not the Pit Mine is the LDM, we've brought up many times how P.C. Bicknell originally searched the area of Angel Basin...His first two articles in 1894 seem to be referring to this area...then, in 1895, he changes his story and says the LDM is within an imaginary circle of 5 miles, the center of which is Weaver's Needle...

Many believe that he changed the search area to deliberately throw off searchers...if so, it could have been at the request of the guys who were searching with him at the time, Frank Kirkland (among other things, a long time partner of Miguel Peralta) and Frank Luke (saloon owner, real-estate speculator, and father of our WWI fighter ace and Medal of Honor winner, Frank Luke Jr.)...

I've never seen all three articles together, for people to look at for themselves...it may have been done before, I don't know...anyway, I decided to put them together for those that have never seen one or more of them...all 3 of them are in the attached PDF file...

View attachment 1644724

 

[OldManOfTheRiver]

While discussing whether or not the Pit Mine is the LDM, we've brought up many times how P.C. Bicknell originally searched the area of Angel Basin...His first two articles in 1894 seem to be referring to this area...then, in 1895, he changes his story and says the LDM is within an imaginary circle of 5 miles, the center of which is Weaver's Needle...

Many believe that he changed the search area to deliberately throw off searchers...if so, it could have been at the request of the guys who were searching with him at the time, Frank Kirkland (among other things, a long time partner of Miguel Peralta) and Frank Luke (saloon owner, real-estate speculator, and father of our WWI fighter ace and Medal of Honor winner, Frank Luke Jr.)...

I've never seen all three articles together, for people to look at for themselves...it may have been done before, I don't know...anyway, I decided to put them together for those that have never seen one or more of them...all 3 of them are in the attached PDF file...

Morning Jim. Hope everyone had a good weekend. Thanks for the articles sir. Here is something I have been playing with on GE. Who knows. He was feeble and old when he drew the 'sketch'. Thanks for putting those together. That is very kind of you and makes for some great reading. Grabbing those now.


Edit: The scale of course is off and it's quite possible this is totally wrong. Some better image analysis software to truly manipulate the image to fit could really help. It wants to fit. Kinda!

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Morning Jim. Hope everyone had a good weekend. Thanks for the articles sir. Here is something I have been playing with on GE. Who knows. He was feeble and old when he drew the 'sketch'. Thanks for putting those together. That is very kind of you and makes for some great reading. Grabbing those now.
View attachment 1644730

Edit: The scale of course is off and it's quite possible this is totally wrong. Some better image analysis software to truly manipulate the image to fit could really help. It wants to fit. Kinda!

Hi Dusty,

While I see no reason to "jump on" the "Waltz" sketch as questionable or fake compared to other "maps", some quick points as to its provenance, as I understand it...

It first surfaced publicly in 1973(edit:not totally sure of this date)...the chain of custody was provided as follows: From Waltz to Rinehart, from Rinehart to Julia, then somehow Herman got ahold of it (It's possible that Rinehart re-drew it for Herman from memory, after the fact), then from Herman, a few weeks before his death, to an unknown person...this unknown person was, or showed it to, John Lindley Higham (pen name: Charles Frederick Higham). Whether Charles Frederick Higham was a credible source or not, is not for me to say...I do know that many of his statements or facts have been proven false...he was also, as far as I know, the person who donated the so-called "Holmes Manuscript"...there are other stories about Rinehart losing a "map" due to passing out drunk the night Waltz died...I don't know how this sketch fits in with that story, if at all...perhaps others will know...

While various explanations of this map have been put forth, Higham said it was the view of Weaver's Needle from the cave...not the mine...anyway, just saying this in case you didn't know anything about where it actually came from...others may know more about this, as I don't put much stock in maps or sketches, so it's not of much interest to me personally...to each his own...

Have fun on your trip, good luck!

take care, Jim

 

[OldManOfTheRiver]

Hi Dusty,

While I see no reason to "jump on" the "Waltz" sketch as questionable or fake compared to other "maps", some quick points as to its provenance, as I understand it...

It first surfaced publicly in 1973...the chain of custody was provided as follows: From Waltz to Rinehart, from Rinehart to Julia, then somehow Herman got ahold of it (It's possible that Rinehart re-drew it for Herman from memory, after the fact), then from Herman, a few weeks before his death, to an unknown person...this unknown person was, or showed it to, John Lindley Higham (pen name: Charles Frederick Higham). Whether Charles Frederick Higham was a credible source or not, is not for me to say...I do know that many of his statements or facts have been proven false...he was also, as far as I know, the person who donated the so-called "Holmes Manuscript"...there are other stories about Rinehart losing a "map" due to passing out drunk the night Waltz died...I don't know how this sketch fits in with that story, if at all...perhaps others will know...

While various explanations of this map have been put forth, Higham said it was the view of Weaver's Needle from the cave...not the mine...anyway, just saying this in case you didn't know anything about where it actually came from...others may know more about this, as I don't put much stock in maps or sketches, so it's not of much interest to me personally...to each his own...

Have fun on your trip, good luck!

take care, Jim

Jim,
Great information there for sure. It is difficult to find the real truth in any of this. Over 100 years of innuendo and subterfuge by most parties have rendered the truth as it were as dead. There should be headstone over by J.W's grave for the truth as well. I really appreciate the provenance you provided. The cave faces north so it's impossible for the view from the cave to have Weaver's Needle in the field of view as it were. In order to see Weaver's or appreciate that view from a north facing cave then that would put the search area to the south of the Needle. (I think). It's much more likely that whatever meaning was attributed to this sketch that it likely occurred the view that Mr. Waltz had and tried to relay is of Weaver's to the south from a high enough vantage point to capture the sketch on Malapais where his initials were found and photographed but now seem to be lost. There once was a rock on the face of Malapais that had Jacob Waltz's initials in it, simply a J.W 1869 of which I have read. Mathew Roberts said that there were pictures of the initials but that the signature and date on Malapais have been destroyed. I have never seen said picture of his name and date other than his supposed initials over on Black Top Mesa which most people consider a fake. The Supes are a huge haystack and whatever it is we are all searching for is very small, 18 inch wide needle or perhaps even a cache or two.

Considering that one could see soldiers or a pack train on the Military Trail where it turns south it puts it in my mind that the mine faced north and the cave faced north (Per Waltz) and that it was high enough to have a pretty good view of three miles or so to the Military Trail. It is my opinion wherever that site is that it is looking down over the Military Trail right around where it turns south and goes down over the bridge at Fish Creek. I too don't put much stock in old maps or new ones even. If this thing were easy to find or even really existed it would have been found long ago and may have. Whatever was there and wherever it is likely long gone, but it will be fun to look and I appreciate the well wishes. We are getting a little nervous. I am going to bring some sage and some white and blue stones and treat the hike with total respect and honor in the expectation we will be allowed safe passage by the weather and Thunder Gods. I used to guide a lot on whitewater and learned that respect for the river is the only way to remain safe and it's no different for the mountains.

Thanks again Jim, heck the fun is in the search anyway!

 

[Doc4261]

Hi Dusty,

While I see no reason to "jump on" the "Waltz" sketch as questionable or fake compared to other "maps", some quick points as to its provenance, as I understand it...

It first surfaced publicly in 1973(edit:not totally sure of this date)...the chain of custody was provided as follows: From Waltz to Rinehart, from Rinehart to Julia, then somehow Herman got ahold of it (It's possible that Rinehart re-drew it for Herman from memory, after the fact), then from Herman, a few weeks before his death, to an unknown person...this unknown person was, or showed it to, John Lindley Higham (pen name: Charles Frederick Higham). Whether Charles Frederick Higham was a credible source or not, is not for me to say...I do know that many of his statements or facts have been proven false...he was also, as far as I know, the person who donated the so-called "Holmes Manuscript"...there are other stories about Rinehart losing a "map" due to passing out drunk the night Waltz died...I don't know how this sketch fits in with that story, if at all...perhaps others will know...

While various explanations of this map have been put forth, Higham said it was the view of Weaver's Needle from the cave...not the mine...anyway, just saying this in case you didn't know anything about where it actually came from...others may know more about this, as I don't put much stock in maps or sketches, so it's not of much interest to me personally...to each his own...

Have fun on your trip, good luck!

take care, Jim

The real question could he see the mine from his Cave. If that was answered we would know how the mine was positioned. One bit of info I wish I knew for the solve of the ldm. Ive moved on to the North. There is a lot to be found across the river.

 

[Doc4261]

Hi Dusty,

While I see no reason to "jump on" the "Waltz" sketch as questionable or fake compared to other "maps", some quick points as to its provenance, as I understand it...

It first surfaced publicly in 1973(edit:not totally sure of this date)...the chain of custody was provided as follows: From Waltz to Rinehart, from Rinehart to Julia, then somehow Herman got ahold of it (It's possible that Rinehart re-drew it for Herman from memory, after the fact), then from Herman, a few weeks before his death, to an unknown person...this unknown person was, or showed it to, John Lindley Higham (pen name: Charles Frederick Higham). Whether Charles Frederick Higham was a credible source or not, is not for me to say...I do know that many of his statements or facts have been proven false...he was also, as far as I know, the person who donated the so-called "Holmes Manuscript"...there are other stories about Rinehart losing a "map" due to passing out drunk the night Waltz died...I don't know how this sketch fits in with that story, if at all...perhaps others will know...

While various explanations of this map have been put forth, Higham said it was the view of Weaver's Needle from the cave...not the mine...anyway, just saying this in case you didn't know anything about where it actually came from...others may know more about this, as I don't put much stock in maps or sketches, so it's not of much interest to me personally...to each his own...

Have fun on your trip, good luck!

take care, Jim

The one thing about the scribble that has got me , was why the rest of the mountain not finished on the left side. I came to the conclusion it was missing on purpose. something blocked the view..

 

[OldManOfTheRiver]

The one thing about the scribble that has got me , was why the rest of the mountain not finished on the left side. I came to the conclusion it was missing on purpose. something blocked the view..

I have no idea why the sketch or scribble isn't more complete. We may never know to be honest. There sure is a lot on the other side of the river for sure though. It's possible he wasn't very lucid even at the time of the scribble. He was old and had pneumonia and had survived the flood by lashing himself to a tree (supposedly). At his age and if he did even scribble this it's pretty amazing he could do that. He was a tough old feller and likely the shock of almost drowning/hypothermia likely set off a chain of physiological events his mind couldn't recover from. My own granddad was in his 80's and had a lot of Creek/Seminole stock and was tough as nails but a bush hog hit an old metal road grader blade they used around our farm for posts on the creeks. Grandad was fit and trim and lucid and was watching a helper mow the field and the bush hog blade dang near took his leg off. He survived but it wasn't a few months and the Alzhiemer's/dementia really kicked in. He'd be dead himself in a few months. I blame the shock of the event for most likely impairing an already elderly man like Waltz and pushing his body and mind further than it should have pushed.

Waltz was most likely trying to tell the truth but dementia is terrible and the short term memory is the first to go. Like a tape recorder where all the new recordings are being deleted and the older memories come forward but they too are corrupted. I feel sorry for Waltz. I think he was good man to be honest.