Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

The problem with the "Dutchman Ore", at least for me, is that it's possible that Waltz never saw or touched the samples that are credited to his mine. It's similar to the "Hell I Was There" syndrome I have mentioned before. I imagine there was a plethora of Waltz ore produced once the story hit its stride. Pretty much like Bob's ring. He believed what he was told, which was false. Like all such ore, it's of course, possible it came from the LDM.

　
You think that is the same thing? The ore used for Bob's ring, came from a trusted source. That source proved to be untrustworthy. With the ore used to make the matchbox, and the other jewelry, came from Dick Holmes. Holmes stated the gold ore came from the candlebox found under Waltz's deathbed. Holmes then spent the remainder of his life searching for the mine from which that ore came. Likewise for his son, and his partner Clay Wurst. Wouldn't you agree that is a rather different provenance, than the ring ore and the Kochera ore for that matter?

　
Further, would you not agree that the gold ore used to make that famous matchbox and jewelry, came from a gold mine? Your doubts do not seem warranted from my point of view, despite the years of false information and what certainly appears to be mixing of several different lost mines into one impossible tale, we have at the root, a man named Jacob Waltz, widely known for having been a prospector, rather a successful one, and that he had a gold mine. Not a silver mine, a gold mine.

Even more, consider that the Ludy/Peralta lost mine story has many of the identical elements we find in the LDM legend. Does that not raise red flags for you, that perhaps the Ludy/Peralta story got mixed together with the LDM? After all we do have a very different version of the Lost Dutchman that has no Peraltas, no massacre, no huge funnel shaped pit and tunnel beneath, in fact about the only links are the drywasher and that it was a gold mine! Would you grant that it is POSSIBLE that someone, Holmes perhaps, or Julia, or perhaps even Waltz himself, confused or deliberately mixed the Peralta/Ludy story with Waltz? Remember, one of the Ludys was named Jacob, and this became garbled (by Barry Storm) into Jacobs and Ludy, when really it was one man named Jacob Ludy and the other Ludy I have forgotten the name. It is even possible that the Ludys were uncle and nephew, for there was 18 years age difference between them according to their enlistment papers. And that they were Civil War soldiers, went to Mexico where they met Peralta and etc etc. Do you accept that both the Ludys and Waltz and Weiser were all Civil War soldiers, they all met Peralta and worked for him, and were all given the mine as repayment?

Real de Tayopa wrote

No AZDave, I haven't. I gave my ip needle to Oro to play with He hasn; reported back on hhis use of it.

　
Hmm then either you are not receiving my emails, or you are not reading them. Did you not receive emails from me over the past several years?

　

 

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[cactusjumper]

Cactusjumper wrote


　
You think that is the same thing? The ore used for Bob's ring, came from a trusted source. That source proved to be untrustworthy. With the ore used to make the matchbox, and the other jewelry, came from Dick Holmes. Holmes stated the gold ore came from the candlebox found under Waltz's deathbed. Holmes then spent the remainder of his life searching for the mine from which that ore came. Likewise for his son, and his partner Clay Wurst. Wouldn't you agree that is a rather different provenance, than the ring ore and the Kochera ore for that matter?

　
Further, would you not agree that the gold ore used to make that famous matchbox and jewelry, came from a gold mine? Your doubts do not seem warranted from my point of view, despite the years of false information and what certainly appears to be mixing of several different lost mines into one impossible tale, we have at the root, a man named Jacob Waltz, widely known for having been a prospector, rather a successful one, and that he had a gold mine. Not a silver mine, a gold mine.

Even more, consider that the Ludy/Peralta lost mine story has many of the identical elements we find in the LDM legend. Does that not raise red flags for you, that perhaps the Ludy/Peralta story got mixed together with the LDM? After all we do have a very different version of the Lost Dutchman that has no Peraltas, no massacre, no huge funnel shaped pit and tunnel beneath, in fact about the only links are the drywasher and that it was a gold mine! Would you grant that it is POSSIBLE that someone, Holmes perhaps, or Julia, or perhaps even Waltz himself, confused or deliberately mixed the Peralta/Ludy story with Waltz? Remember, one of the Ludys was named Jacob, and this became garbled (by Barry Storm) into Jacobs and Ludy, when really it was one man named Jacob Ludy and the other Ludy I have forgotten the name. It is even possible that the Ludys were uncle and nephew, for there was 18 years age difference between them according to their enlistment papers. And that they were Civil War soldiers, went to Mexico where they met Peralta and etc etc. Do you accept that both the Ludys and Waltz and Weiser were all Civil War soldiers, they all met Peralta and worked for him, and were all given the mine as repayment?

Real de Tayopa wrote


　
Hmm then either you are not receiving my emails, or you are not reading them. Did you not receive emails from me over the past several years?

　

Roy,

I agree with most of what you wrote. On the other hand, I'm not sure I agree with the honesty of the people who's hands the "Dutchman's ore" passed through. You can really start with Waltz, who had reasons to convince Julia and Rhiney that he had a very rich mine and it gets worse from there. Dick Holmes, most agree, stole the ore from under a dead man's bed, which rightfully should have gone to the woman who was caring for him. If Brownie was telling the truth, as he knew it, his source for the story was questionable.

I think my, long held, theory has merit. The mixing of people and stories does nothing to change that, in my mind, which, admittedly, is also somewhat questionable these days.

Just wondering, how many times have you used a drywasher to work an old, hard rock, gold mine, especially one as rich as is claimed for the LDM?

Take care,

Joe

 

[sdcfia]

Further, would you not agree that the gold ore used to make that famous matchbox and jewelry, came from a gold mine?

Of course it did, but I for one am curious. Is there a true provenance for this ore? I don't mean the commonly accepted lore surrounding it, but a bulletproof provenance, obvious and acceptable to an impartial person. As I recall, the ore's owner and the circumstances of its possession are some sort of secret. As we all know, picture rock has always been readily available in the mining west, so what would prevent one - anyone - from obtaining some and simply claiming he had "Dutchman ore?" Much of the lore permeating this legend seems to be questionable IMO, including this claim.

 

[Azquester]

How many men would you say Waltz murdered? What evidence do we have that Waltz killed them? Thanks in advance.

You're right. The only evidence we have is his own death bed testimony which has been handed down through a lot of people. Of course there's the story of the corpse being found under a rock with a chain wrapped around it's head if you believe that. This story has gotten so far off course and embellished since when he died I don't think anyone could get the correct version!

So what does one do?

You'd have to check out all of them if you have enough life or started when you were about 6 years old. Even then you'd probably never get through all of the stories in your lifetime.

It's a conundrum!

 

[Matthew Roberts]

In April 1969 George Brownie Holmes gave testimony to an affidavit concerning a Matchbox made from gold ore from the mine of Jacob Waltz, the "Lost Dutchman Mine" of the Superstition Mountains of Arizona. The affidavit explains the complete circumstances of how Waltz's gold came to be crafted into this Matchbox and the line of succession and how George Brownie Holmes came to be the owner of the Matchbox. Not many in the Dutchman community have seen this important affidavit. It is proof that Jacob Waltz indeed had gold and that his mine and gold were known to many in Phoenix in 1891 and that his gold was assayed and remains to this day in a Matchbox and other items of Jewelry made from that gold.



STATE OF ARIZONA }
County of Maricopa }

BEFORE ME, J Yenerich, a Notary Public in and for the said County, State of Arizona, on this day personally appeared Mr. George Holmes, to me well known, and who, after being duly sworn, deposes and says that the following testimony is true to the best of his knowledge.

My name is George Holmes, often known as “Brownie” Holmes, of Phoenix, Arizona.

My family were Arizona pioneers. My grandfather, R. J. Holmes Sr., landed at the present site of Yuma in 1847. He was from Holmes County, Mississippi, and graduated from college at Ann Arbor, Michigan as a geologist and mineralogist. He found gold at La Paz in 1853 nearly ten years before Pauline Weaver’s discovery.

My father was R. J. Holmes, Jr., often known as Dick Holmes, was born at Old Fort Whipple in 1865. He ranched in Bloody Basin, where Holmes Creek and Holmes Canyon were named for him. He was a civilian packer for the Army, having packed for Al Sieber, among others. He married my mother in 1889 in Tempe. I was born in Phoenix in 1892.

My father knew Jacob Waltz, in later years known as “The Dutchman”. Waltz’ friends were convinced he was operating a hidden gold mine in the Superstition Mountains.

Following heavy rains and floods in February, 1891, in which his adobe fell, Waltz made his home with Mrs. Julia Thomas, a colored woman, near the corner of Jackson and 2nd Avenue in Phoenix. She was married to Emil Thomas, but later married Al Schaffer. Both Mrs. Thomas and Schaffer were religious mystics.

Waltz died in October, 1891, at Mrs. Thomas’ home. On his deathbed he gave my father a miner’s candle box full of gold ore, which he had under his bed. He also made a lengthy deathbed revelation regarding the history and location of the source of the gold, since called “The Lost Dutchman Mine”. The only people present at this time were Waltz, Dick Holmes, and Gideon Roberts. Mrs. Thomas, delayed in locating a doctor, and the others who claimed to have been present at Waltz’ death, did not enter the scene until later.

Keeping several pieces for specimens, my father sold the remainder of the ore to Goldman & Co., who were general merchants on East Washington Street, receiving about $4,800.00 in the transaction.

One piece of ore was taken to Joe Porterie, an assayer, whose office was on West Washington Street, in the next block west of Goldman’s. The assay showed $110,000.00 per ton in gold, the price of gold then being $20.67 per ounce.

Joe Porterie had been the assayer at the Vulture Mine at Wickenburg during its operation. The rumor that Waltz never had a mine, but high-graded this ore during his employment at the Vulture, was flatly refuted by Porterie, as the ore in Waltz’ possession was quite different from anything at the Vulture. A man of integrity, Porterie later became constable, deputy sheriff, and Deputy U. S. Marshall.

Of the unsold pieces, my father kept some as specimen ore, and also had jewelry made, consisting of a ring, cufflinks, a stickpin and a stud. These are still in my possession.

Of the ore sold to Goldman & Co., most was cleaned and the gold shipped. To my father’s knowledge, the only other specimen ore kept intact was obtained from Goldman’s by Jimmie Douglas. There were several “James Douglas” in the family, this son being the son of the President of the Phelps-Dodge Co., for whom the town of Douglas, Arizona, was named, and the father of Lew Douglas, the American Ambassador to England under President Truman.

Of the ore which Jimmie Douglas obtained, a gold matchbox was made up and presented to Gus H. Hirschfield. Hirschfield, of whom Leo and Charles Goldman were deeply fond, was a skilled mathematician, who at the time kept books for Goldman’s. A prominent Phoenix businessman, Hirschfield later owned the Palace Saloon, located in the same block as Goldman’s store.

I do not know by whom the presentation was made, nor the identity of the J.L. & Co. in the engraved inscription on the matchbox. I can offer a GUESS only.

There was, in San Francisco, a manufacturing jeweler known as John Levy & Co. who, during that period, made jewelry which was sold in the Arizona Territory. Both Levy & Hirschfield were Jewish, and Hirschfield was well known in the early West. This MIGHT POSSIBLY explain the inscription, it being understood this is NOT REPRESENTED AS BEING A FACT.

Hirschfield, a friend of both my father and myself, knew my father to have originally been given the ore by “The Dutchman” Jacob Waltz. Accordingly, he advised Mrs. Hirschfield that, upon his death, the match box was to be given to the Holmes family. My father preceded Mr. Hirschfield in death, and at the time of Mr. Hirschfield’s passing, the matchbox was given to me.

In turn, I have presented the matchbox to my friend, ____XXX______ of Apache Junction, Arizona. This affidavit serves as a statement of its historical authenticity, as well as evidence of ownership by Mr. __XXX__.

As a means of identification, the matchbox weighs 48.4 grams, and measures 2.489-in. long, 1.317-in. wide and 0.525-in. thick. It is engraved, bearing the inscription J. L. & Co. to G. H. H. It is made with inlays of gold-bearing quartz, with free wire fold stringers varying from .06-in. to .13-in. in width, and which would assay an estimated quarter million dollars per ton.

Signature: George Holmes

Subscribed And Sworn Before Me This, 23rd day of April, A.D. 1969.
J. Yenerich
Notary Public
Maricopa County, Arizona
My commission expires: August 30, 1970


Gold ore Matchbox from James Douglas to Gus Hirshfeld


George Brownie Holmes


RJ Dick Holmes


James Jimmie Douglas


Gus Hirshfeld


Goldman Brothers, Aaron, Leo and Adolph at their store in Phoenix 1891

 

[EarnieP]

Outstanding post, Matthew! Thank You.

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

I agree with most of what you wrote. On the other hand, I'm not sure I agree with the honesty of the people who's hands the "Dutchman's ore" passed through. You can really start with Waltz, who had reasons to convince Julia and Rhiney that he had a very rich mine and it gets worse from there. Dick Holmes, most agree, stole the ore from under a dead man's bed, which rightfully should have gone to the woman who was caring for him. If Brownie was telling the truth, as he knew it, his source for the story was questionable.

I think my, long held, theory has merit. The mixing of people and stories does nothing to change that, in my mind, which, admittedly, is also somewhat questionable these days.

Just wondering, how many times have you used a drywasher to work an old, hard rock, gold mine, especially one as rich as is claimed for the LDM?

So your theory actually sort of depends on Waltz, concocting a tale to keep Julia interested enough to keep taking care of him? While that is possible, why then did he bother to sell his own gold to help her out financially? And the gold stolen by or given to Holmes, where did it come from? Surely you would agree that it came from a mine? See where I am going with this? If he were simply cooking up a fantasy mine to keep Julia interested, why sell his own gold to help her, and in fact he had gold left even at his death, which obviously came from a mine. Many people claimed that Waltz had a gold mine, and it is a matter of record that he had been actively prospecting in the Bradshaws, selling out before moving to Phoenix in 1868. It is not like he was a shoe maker, with NO experience in gold prospecting, is it?

Actions speak louder than words IMHO, and Holmes spent his life searching for Waltz's mine. He did not search by the clues given in the Holmes manuscript apparently, but search he certainly did, which he would hardly have bothered to do if he had simply made up a tale and obtained some rich ore to flavor the story. Rather different than the case with some of the modern "evidence" that came into circulation.

Actually your point on the drywasher is one of the red flags I have pointed to in the past, about the Holmes/Julia version of the LDM. It makes NO sense to take a drywasher to work a hard rock gold mine. On the other hand, by that alternate LDM version (the one with NO Peraltas, no massacre etc) Waltz went to Florence to have a portable drywasher built, which was to help him trace gold float to locate the lode which he then opened into a mine. The drywasher was only for the locating, not for the mining, that makes perfect sense to me and I would certainly do it.

Sdcfia wrote

Of course it did, but I for one am curious. Is there a true provenance for this ore? I don't mean the commonly accepted lore surrounding it, but a bulletproof provenance, obvious and acceptable to an impartial person. As I recall, the ore's owner and the circumstances of its possession are some sort of secret. As we all know, picture rock has always been readily available in the mining west, so what would prevent one - anyone - from obtaining some and simply claiming he had "Dutchman ore?" Much of the lore permeating this legend seems to be questionable IMO, including this claim.

So it is questionable that the gold ore used to make the famous matchbox, came from a mine? Are you serious Steve? Where does gold ore come from, if not from a mine then?

　
As for "bulletproof" - NOTHING is absolutely bulletproof as to be unquestionable - not the LDM legend, not markers, not anything including you. We do not know who or whom you really are, nor can you say for certain whom you really are. Even if you are reading the info off of your own birth certificate, can you ever really be certain that it is not altered, doctored, changed? How do you know you were not adopted, and the facts kept from you entirely? How do we know that you are not Waltz's grand-nephew, trying to discourage everyone from searching for a mine you may have a legal claim on?

　
This is the treasure LEGENDS forum after all, and the solid facts (which you can not see as solid) are quite limited. If these are not enough for you, that is great for you - stay home, go fishing, head for Vegas and have a good time. Only treasure hunters are really willing to spend their time and money to search for a legend, and those whom will not search will never find a lost mine or treasure. Just saying "this is doubtful" all the time adds very little to a discussion, if everything is SO doubtful to you, you do not have to search for the mine after all, no one will be offended. I have stated this before, but other lost mines have been found, that had even less documentation/proof than the LDM, such as the Silver King for one example. The only evidence of any kind in that case was a story that was getting repeated at saloons.

I see that Matthew has posted a detailed affidavit on Holmes and the ore, which I suppose will be doubtful and questionable to you as well.

Have to say ditto to EarnieP's words, outstanding post Matthew, hope to see more like that.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Old]

We've been down this road many times. While I agree the statements signed by George (Brownie) Holmes give us some assurances, the paper itself is not admissible "evidence".

If I was the buyer or recipient of the matchbox I'd want something similar. It is the best you could get at that late date. But let's be real as to what it is. Its a sworn statement of what George Holmes "believes" to be true. The only real legal purpose it serves is to provide some level of assurance that the transfer of the matchbox was made in good faith on the premise that the participants "believed" it to be made of Dutchman ore. This is what he was told, not what he witnessed. Big difference. The only thing that can be assured is that's the story as Geo. Holmes knew it on that day.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

SDC, my friend, some things just do not have an iron tight provenance, especially for Tayopa. or the Dutchman and his matchbox ore. tis early in the morning, enjoy ----- enjoy, tis sock coffee 'not' NP's burro juice.

 

[nobodie]

I believe 100% that Waltz had gold, but once it left Holmes hand what gold was taken off the self to make the match box?

 

[sdcfia]

So it is questionable that the gold ore used to make the famous matchbox, came from a mine? Are you serious Steve? Where does gold ore come from, if not from a mine then?

As for "bulletproof" - NOTHING is absolutely bulletproof as to be unquestionable - not the LDM legend, not markers, not anything including you. We do not know who or whom you really are, nor can you say for certain whom you really are. Even if you are reading the info off of your own birth certificate, can you ever really be certain that it is not altered, doctored, changed? How do you know you were not adopted, and the facts kept from you entirely? How do we know that you are not Waltz's grand-nephew, trying to discourage everyone from searching for a mine you may have a legal claim on?

I thought I made myself clear earlier. Yes, certainly, the gold ore came from a gold mine somewhere, in the same way that a stringer of fish came from a river, lake, aquarium or ocean somewhere. I'm not questioning that. That's where gold ore comes from - gold mines. I'm merely observing that, other than hearsay, we have no evidence that the "matchbox ore" came from the historical character usually know as Jacob Waltz, who died in Phoenix in 1891. Sure, Brownie Holmes' affidavit is specific about the matter, but the events he's describing occurred before he was born.

You're correct that even with birth certificate in hand, I can't be certain that what's printed on it is legitimate. The same applies to much of what we choose to accept as true in our lives. However, that birth certificate is a recognized form of documentation that most impartial observers would agree at least begins to help establish my true origin and identity. Now, if we had a receipt or a ledger entry dated 1891 for $4,800 for gold ore from Goldman & Co to Dick Holmes, then most people would acknowledge that Holmes had indeed somehow come into possession of gold ore containing more than 200 ounces of gold - a quarter million of today's funny dollars. With such a peg to hang Dick's hat on, we could then reasonably proceed to agree that, regardless of by what means he came into possession of the ore, it's likely that it somehow came from Waltz - either from the "candle box", or from some other location that Waltz may have told Holmes about. This procedure is basic fact checking. Without facts, we're at a disadvantage in narrowing our search for the truth of things.

 

[Azquester]

I thought I made myself clear earlier. Yes, certainly, the gold ore came from a gold mine somewhere, in the same way that a stringer of fish came from a river, lake, aquarium or ocean somewhere. I'm not questioning that. That's where gold ore comes from - gold mines. I'm merely observing that, other than hearsay, we have no evidence that the "matchbox ore" came from the historical character usually know as Jacob Waltz, who died in Phoenix in 1891. Sure, Brownie Holmes' affidavit is specific about the matter, but the events he's describing occurred before he was born.

You're correct that even with birth certificate in hand, I can't be certain that what's printed on it is legitimate. The same applies to much of what we choose to accept as true in our lives. However, that birth certificate is a recognized form of documentation that most impartial observers would agree at least begins to help establish my true origin and identity. Now, if we had a receipt or a ledger entry dated 1891 for $4,800 for gold ore from Goldman & Co to Dick Holmes, then most people would acknowledge that Holmes had indeed somehow come into possession of gold ore containing more than 200 ounces of gold - a quarter million of today's funny dollars. With such a peg to hang Dick's hat on, we could then reasonably proceed to agree that, regardless of by what means he came into possession of the ore, it's likely that it somehow came from Waltz - either from the "candle box", or from some other location that Waltz may have told Holmes about. This procedure is basic fact checking. Without facts, we're at a disadvantage in narrowing our search for the truth of things.

200 Ounces of Gold is a lot for a cigar box under a death bed! Must have been some of those Giant exploding cigars!
Jewelry grade nuggets maybe, but, 200 ounces seems far fetched to the normal observer.

I'm heading for the Pit Mine right now and will lose service soon. It's going to be 123 degrees today so I got to get in there and out quickly.

I don't mind spending the night. Carrying a 308 rifle with a scope makes it a little challenging.

 

[AuTSaurus]

Don't forget Bill, with the "reflected" heat, it will be hotter, take enough water. I know, I know, it's just a friendly reminder.

If you make a post when you get back to your vehicle, we would all know the heat didn't get you.

Greg

 

[sdcfia]

Actions speak louder than words IMHO, and Holmes spent his life searching for Waltz's mine. He did not search by the clues given in the Holmes manuscript apparently, but search he certainly did, which he would hardly have bothered to do if he had simply made up a tale and obtained some rich ore to flavor the story. Rather different than the case with some of the modern "evidence" that came into circulation.

[To respond, I will temporarily acknowledge that it has been proven that Holmes acquired Waltz's candle box ore as discussed in Post #751.]

If Holmes searched his entire life for a secret mine based on alleged private information spoken directly to his ears by Waltz's lips and failed to find it, what does that tell you? The fact that he searched for something is no guarantee that something was there to be found.

I've said before that if I was a young man living in central Arizona, with adventure on my mind, a search for the "Lost Dutchman Mine" would not be on my list of things to get involved in. Since I'm not emotionally attached to the lore, my rational and logical take on the story is that, IMO, Waltz was an old miner who most likely possessed a cache of high-grade gold ore that was his old-age nest egg. There could be several possible sources for that cache, including some that might have gotten him in trouble if exposed. If that were the case, it's plausible that he might try to cover past misdeeds with a story of a secret mine being the source of the cached ore.

Maybe the candle box ore was all he had. 200 ounces or more of gold contained in a box of hand-cobbled picture rock. Let's say the gold accounted for 25%, more or less, of the weight of the ore. That calcs out to be something like 60 or 80 pounds of ore. Quite manageable. He could have brought this with him when he moved to Phoenix. A nice safety net for an old prospector turned chicken farmer.

The Pit Mine? Who knows? It seems reasonable to conclude that some Mexican mining activities occurred in that country in the undocumented past. Same goes for all the mining districts in the southwest. A lack of technology and Indian trouble usually limited these activities to placer workings and occasional shallow coyote holes where high grade stringers had surfaced and played out quickly. Logistics was their biggest problem - money, manpower, equipment, livestock, expertise and especially food and water to sustain a remote mining venture. Was Waltz somehow involved in one or more of these operations? It doesn't seem likely, but perhaps he found his cache in one of the old workings. I think, overall, that the LDM legend has grown so proportionally beyond reality that the truth is likely unattainable.

 

[TallTx]

First time jumping into discussion. on TN.
Have read and enjoyed all the LDM discussions for past year before joining.

The 1800's era candleboxes I've found online would have had a dimension of somewhere approximately 20"x11"x9". A little over 1 cubic ft. It could have held almost 1200 lbs of refined gold, or 180 lbs of quartz rock, so it seems likely the contents of the candlebox would have been gold bearing ore, not refined. If the gold was found in an 1800s era wooden cigar box, then it would have had to have been more than likely highly refined. IMO

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Originally Posted by Oroblanco Actions speak louder than words IMHO, and Holmes spent his life searching for Waltz's mine. He did not search by the clues given in the Holmes manuscript apparently, but search he certainly did, which he would hardly have bothered to do if he had simply made up a tale and obtained some rich ore to flavor the story. Rather different than the case with some of the modern "evidence" that came into circulation.
__________________________________

Holmes did not spend his life searching for Waltz's mine. He lived his life in close proximity to Phoenix, and searched for the LDM in his spare time. I have known many people who probably dedicated more time in that search, with much less of a personal story to keep them involved. I have been involved in the Superstitions for over fifty years, but have hardly spent my life looking for treasure there. Brownie seems to have had little specific knowledge of where the mine was located. If he did, why did he start his last search from the main mountain and proceed northeast, across the range, from there?

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi SDC my friend, regarding birth cert, reliable ness, may I suggest looking at our President's.

 

[deducer]

Back to the Pit Mine please. This has been a great discussion which I hope will continue minus politics.

 

[azdave35]

Back to the Pit Mine please. This has been a great discussion which I hope will continue minus politics.

last i heard Bill Riley was headed out there today.....if he doesn't burst into flames.... its supposed to be 115 today...118 tomorrow and 120 monday

 

[sdcfia]

last i heard Bill Riley was headed out there today.....if he doesn't burst into flames.... its supposed to be 115 today...118 tomorrow and 120 monday

"Only mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun."

The problem is not only the effects of the heat, but also the amount of water you need to carry in order to remain hydrated. Water's heavy. Severe dehydration is a bummer, and can become dangerous. Me, I've had heat exhaustion before - I'd wait till about November.

Survival - DESERT SURVIVAL - Chapter 13 - Page 2
(45º C = 113º F)