Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[Oroblanco]

Bill, that was an attempt on hunor., of course I trust you but NOT with my coffee !!


You posted ---If I ever found the Dutchman it would be open for all to see with free samples!


I have found Tayopa and that is my own feeling, the search was the fun.

WHAT!!!?

Are you feeling alright today amigo? Been out in the Sun a wee bit over-much? Or did you just win the Publishers Clearing House prize? I recommend a tall cold glass of first rate tequila, over ice, with a wedge of lime or lemon on the rim, turn up the AC to high and put your feet up a while! Maybe a bit of salt as well, can't be too careful you know!

Cactusjumper Joe - I see what you are saying, however it is not on me or those whom are in doubt, to prove that the Pit mine is the Silver Chief or another of the over 30 known mines of the Rogers district that might be what the Pit really is. It is on those whom are claiming the Pit mine is the LDM, or that the Pit is the site of Jacob Waltz's last cache of ore. So what makes the Pit mine the LDM, or a cache of Waltz's ore? There is reason to think it is one of the old silver mines, and the fellows who 'struck it rich' there simply found a nice pocket of gold in it, based on the fact that all of the mines of the Rogers district were really silver mines, and were known for having gold in them as well. Thanks in advance.

 

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[cactusjumper]

WHAT!!!?

Are you feeling alright today amigo? Been out in the Sun a wee bit over-much? Or did you just win the Publishers Clearing House prize? I recommend a tall cold glass of first rate tequila, over ice, with a wedge of lime or lemon on the rim, turn up the AC to high and put your feet up a while! Maybe a bit of salt as well, can't be too careful you know!

Cactusjumper Joe - I see what you are saying, however it is not on me or those whom are in doubt, to prove that the Pit mine is the Silver Chief or another of the over 30 known mines of the Rogers district that might be what the Pit really is. It is on those whom are claiming the Pit mine is the LDM, or that the Pit is the site of Jacob Waltz's last cache of ore. So what makes the Pit mine the LDM, or a cache of Waltz's ore? There is reason to think it is one of the old silver mines, and the fellows who 'struck it rich' there simply found a nice pocket of gold in it, based on the fact that all of the mines of the Rogers district were really silver mines, and were known for having gold in them as well. Thanks in advance.

Roy,

I have never claimed that the Pit Mine is the LDM, nor have I claimed that the two holes that were found were Jacobs caches. On the other hand, it's possible.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Azquester]

Something Supernatural going on in there!

Me thinks it could be Eagle Powers!!

Well, I earned all my other badges years ago...

I wonder who's buried in there? I'll film the Ghosts of Roger's Canyons. Of course they'll all be named Roger!!

If I find a rich mine you'll see it on you tube for about an hour.

After that it'll no longer be valid and I'll be on vacation with Tramp!!

He's got the coffee from Brazil!

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Quentin (Ted) Cox, Roger’s spring and the Pit Mine.

It’s confusing to some people who might not know the history of the Roger’s Spring archaeology site and the Pit Mine site and confuse the two as being the same site.

The Roger’s Spring archaeology site is on the southwest base of Iron Mountain and was also known as the HEAT dig. This site was first excavated by Quentin (Ted) Cox in 1958 and later excavated by the HEAT team in the early 2000’s. It is believed by some to be an old Spanish or Mexican mine, and/or cache site.

The “Pit Mine” is an actual mine about a mile and a half northwest of the Roger’s Spring site. It is also believed by some to be an old Spanish or Mexican era mine, and or cache site. The Pit Mine site is said to have been rediscovered about 1985 and excavated with Gold ore being extracted in the 1997-1999 time period. Some accounts say a cache of gold was also found inside the mine. It is believed by some to have been the Lost Dutchman Mine.

The archaeology report on the Roger’s Spring (HEAT) dig was done by a private firm and paid for by private individuals. The archaeologists, Steinbeck and Rice did not do the actual excavation of the artifacts found at the site. The Roger’s Spring (HEAT) dig received a USFS permit to dig at the spring which allowed them to improve the flow of water from the spring for wildlife and clean up the site when they were finished.

The two sites, the Pit Mine and Roger’s spring are separate from each other but intertwined by one story which originated in the notes and letters of Quentin (Ted) Cox in the 1950’s. Cox read the book Lost Mines and Buried Treasures (John Mitchell 1953) and decided the Lost Dutchman Mine was an old Spanish/Mexican mine that Jacob Waltz found in the Iron Mountain Pinto Creek area of the eastern Superstitions.

Cox believed this due to a story Mitchell wrote about an old carpenter from Florence, Arizona named “Frank” who built a rocker/washer for Jacob Waltz and learned Waltz had a mine in the Pinto Creek area on the southwest side of Iron Mountain. Mitchell provided a map of the Iron Mountain search area.

In 1958, searching with two friends (Bud and Wally) from Torrance, CA. Cox believed Roger’s Spring, a water source for cattle on the range of rancher Billy Martin was the site of Waltz’s mine and or cache. Martin had at an earlier time dug a tunnel back to the Roger’s spring head in an effort to open the spring up. Martin tapped the spring and ran a pipe out of the tunnel to create a pool of water for his cattle. Martin then proceeded to cave in the tunnel so animals couldn’t get inside the tunnel and foul the water.

When Cox came along and saw the caved in tunnel he was certain it was Waltz’s mine and cache, the mine Mitchell wrote about in his book. Cox and his partners went on top of a small rise directly above the spring and proceeded to dig a shaft down to meet the caved in tunnel. Rancher Martin noticed the men digging and told them to stop and get off his range. Cox persisted with his digging and several encounters between Cox and Martin ensued. Cox wrote several letters to the USFS and his congressman complaining about Martin and his efforts to deny him access to Waltz’s mine. Things came to a head when rancher Martin encountered Cox and his partners driving an excavator up the trail to the Roger’s trough and mill site. An angry, potentially dangerous encounter ensued and the Sheriff was called to advise Cox to cease and desist.

Cox wasn’t through however and his crew succeeded in digging the shaft down to the spring where he said he encountered the main tunnel and two side chambers, one supposedly going to the right and one going to the left. Cox told a story that he and his crew excavated one of the chambers but never got the chance to excavate the other one. Cox further told that in his digging he had found a cache of gold bullion, some Spanish or Mexican type artifact, a rock wall and even some human remains.

Cox and his partners believed the Roger’s Spring site was Waltz’s gold cache and they spread out to try and locate the mine, the source of the cache. About this time there was a falling out between Cox and his two partners and Bud and Wally angrily quit Cox and his search and returned to California.

Cox eventually zeroed in on an old mine site he said he discovered in some brush about a mile and a half northwest of the Roger’s Spring site. He believed this mine was the lost mine of Jacob Waltz, the source of the Roger’s Spring cache. The foundation of a rock house near to this mine was believed by Cox to be Waltz’s two room house. The mine Cox zeroed in on was the site of what today is being called, the “Pit Mine.”

Quentin Ted Cox eventually alienated every rancher and Sheriff’s deputy in the county and he tried to sue the ranchers and the county for denying him access to the area of his mine. Cox was a prolific letter writer and to read his many letters and notes will give anyone a pounding headache as his printing was a style of hieroglyphics that made your eyes blur. Quentin Ted Cox died in 1983 and never tired of talking about his adventures searching for the Lost Dutchman mine. His notes and letters are fascinating and if you can follow his sometimes pointless thought process, there is the good possibility you might be captivated by his story and launch your own search based on his writings.

Matthew

 

[azdave35]

Quentin (Ted) Cox, Roger’s spring and the Pit Mine.

It’s confusing to some people who might not know the history of the Roger’s Spring archaeology site and the Pit Mine site and confuse the two as being the same site.

The Roger’s Spring archaeology site is on the southwest base of Iron Mountain and was also known as the HEAT dig. This site was first excavated by Quentin (Ted) Cox in 1958 and later excavated by the HEAT team in the early 2000’s. It is believed by some to be an old Spanish or Mexican mine, and/or cache site.

The “Pit Mine” is an actual mine about a mile and a half northwest of the Roger’s Spring site. It is also believed by some to be an old Spanish or Mexican era mine, and or cache site. The Pit Mine site is said to have been rediscovered about 1985 and excavated with Gold ore being extracted in the 1997-1999 time period. Some accounts say a cache of gold was also found inside the mine. It is believed by some to have been the Lost Dutchman Mine.

The archaeology report on the Roger’s Spring (HEAT) dig was done by a private firm and paid for by private individuals. The archaeologists, Steinbeck and Rice did not do the actual excavation of the artifacts found at the site. The Roger’s Spring (HEAT) dig received a USFS permit to dig at the spring which allowed them to improve the flow of water from the spring for wildlife and clean up the site when they were finished.

The two sites, the Pit Mine and Roger’s spring are separate from each other but intertwined by one story which originated in the notes and letters of Quentin (Ted) Cox in the 1950’s. Cox read the book Lost Mines and Buried Treasures (John Mitchell 1953) and decided the Lost Dutchman Mine was an old Spanish/Mexican mine that Jacob Waltz found in the Iron Mountain Pinto Creek area of the eastern Superstitions.

Cox believed this due to a story Mitchell wrote about an old carpenter from Florence, Arizona named “Frank” who built a rocker/washer for Jacob Waltz and learned Waltz had a mine in the Pinto Creek area on the southwest side of Iron Mountain. Mitchell provided a map of the Iron Mountain search area.

In 1958, searching with two friends (Bud and Wally) from Torrance, CA. Cox believed Roger’s Spring, a water source for cattle on the range of rancher Billy Martin was the site of Waltz’s mine and or cache. Martin had at an earlier time dug a tunnel back to the Roger’s spring head in an effort to open the spring up. Martin tapped the spring and ran a pipe out of the tunnel to create a pool of water for his cattle. Martin then proceeded to cave in the tunnel so animals couldn’t get inside the tunnel and foul the water.

When Cox came along and saw the caved in tunnel he was certain it was Waltz’s mine and cache, the mine Mitchell wrote about in his book. Cox and his partners went on top of a small rise directly above the spring and proceeded to dig a shaft down to meet the caved in tunnel. Rancher Martin noticed the men digging and told them to stop and get off his range. Cox persisted with his digging and several encounters between Cox and Martin ensued. Cox wrote several letters to the USFS and his congressman complaining about Martin and his efforts to deny him access to Waltz’s mine. Things came to a head when rancher Martin encountered Cox and his partners driving an excavator up the trail to the Roger’s trough and mill site. An angry, potentially dangerous encounter ensued and the Sheriff was called to advise Cox to cease and desist.

Cox wasn’t through however and his crew succeeded in digging the shaft down to the spring where he said he encountered the main tunnel and two side chambers, one supposedly going to the right and one going to the left. Cox told a story that he and his crew excavated one of the chambers but never got the chance to excavate the other one. Cox further told that in his digging he had found a cache of gold bullion, some Spanish or Mexican type artifact, a rock wall and even some human remains.

Cox and his partners believed the Roger’s Spring site was Waltz’s gold cache and they spread out to try and locate the mine, the source of the cache. About this time there was a falling out between Cox and his two partners and Bud and Wally angrily quit Cox and his search and returned to California.

Cox eventually zeroed in on an old mine site he said he discovered in some brush about a mile and a half northwest of the Roger’s Spring site. He believed this mine was the lost mine of Jacob Waltz, the source of the Roger’s Spring cache. The foundation of a rock house near to this mine was believed by Cox to be Waltz’s two room house. The mine Cox zeroed in on was the site of what today is being called, the “Pit Mine.”

Quentin Ted Cox eventually alienated every rancher and Sheriff’s deputy in the county and he tried to sue the ranchers and the county for denying him access to the area of his mine. Cox was a prolific letter writer and to read his many letters and notes will give anyone a pounding headache as his printing was a style of hieroglyphics that made your eyes blur. Quentin Ted Cox died in 1983 and never tired of talking about his adventures searching for the Lost Dutchman mine. His notes and letters are fascinating and if you can follow his sometimes pointless thought process, there is the good possibility you might be captivated by his story and launch your own search based on his writings.

Matthew

matthew..i'm with you on ted's writing..i never could read his writing very long....he used to send alot of articles to true west and treasure magazines and i read them there..thank god they were typed..lol

 

[Azquester]

SDCFIA wrote....>>>I take exception to the archaeological report shown in Post #691 that indicates that an old mine lacking location filing papers and/or one that contains hand-cut local trees used for shoring "must predate 1860." This opinion fails to acknowledge that during the post-1860 Anglo period, 1) it was not uncommon that working mines, especially promising rich prospects, were never filed on for various reasons (usually security); and 2) many, many working mines in remote locations had little choice other than using readily available local trees for shoring timbers. Milled timbers were often too expensive and hard to obtain. Trees were free and on site.<<<<

Great pictures, thanks for sharing.

concerning the not filing issue discussed above.......in this case it does make some sense. In most cases, I'd agree with you. In this case there were other mines, LOTS of them in the post 1860 period. One mine would have been less than a half mile from this location. It would have been hard to hide with all the traffic in this area AT that time period. Looks like it was crawling with miners. Wouldn't have been a good idea not to file. I think that's what the archeologist is alluding too. This site WAS filed on in the time period but not as a mine site but rather as a Mill site with a water source. The arch. mentions that, I just didn't copy it all.

This location and the Pit are enigmas and don't fit any sort of logic in trying to place them as part of the known activity of the area. I know I'll get blow back from that, but hey! That's what makes it interesting.

I've pictures of an old mine that looks almost identical in nature. It was near a Mission and Pueblo site along the San Pedro river. Exact same tree stumps with newer material in the rear a perfect small door underneath the upper "Pit" area. It looks to be a common type of mining technique. The lower tunnel is what's interesting as it has no wood supports and the tunnel itself is ina softer material prone to cave in's. It looks like the mine tunnel was carved with the Indian carrying the leather bag in mind as it was curved in an arch on top and you had to bend over to walk in it.

At that site you can see where and how they hid the cart trail ingress / egress too thwart mining and not to arouse suspicion of that sort of activity. As with this one hopefully they left a map stone measure markers upright in there rightful positions. The one down here has just that and we triangulated from that and found the hidden shaft already plundered and caved in.

That whole area seems very familiar to me I've been in a mining district identical to it.

On another note...

If Jacob didn't file he would be claim jumping and shot. He usually got the jump and did all the shooting though before anyone could act. I sort of find it hard for him to have his claim in there. After all he said no miner or cowboy would find it.

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

I have never claimed that the Pit Mine is the LDM, nor have I claimed that the two holes that were found were Jacobs caches. On the other hand, it's possible.

Take care,

Joe

Not to get picky here, but it is you that has provided much of the claims about it, and to be fair, I did say quote

It is on those whom are claiming the Pit mine is the LDM, or that the Pit is the site of Jacob Waltz's last cache of ore.

Note that I did not name you, specifically, however as you have been providing the case/evidence/etc in favor of those claims almost from the start, I would think that it would be you to then make the case for your friends that are making the claims since they do not participate here and it was mainly you that has been supporting their case. I won't hold you to the claims.

Who is confusing Rogers spring with the Pit mine? Both have been under discussion, but I have not seen anyone mixing the two together or misunderstanding that they are separated by some distance. Anyway thanks Matthew Roberts for your detailed explanation, perhaps someone has had the two confused.

 

[Oroblanco]

On another note...

If Jacob didn't file he would be claim jumping and shot. He usually got the jump and did all the shooting though before anyone could act. I sort of find it hard for him to have his claim in there. After all he said no miner or cowboy would find it.

Waltz would only have been claim jumping if he were on someone else's mining claim. It is not claim jumping to start mining open ground that has no claims on it. It would today not be legal, but in Waltz's day, if any sheriff or other authority had 'caught' him working on the mine, he would be given a time period to record his claim, usually ten days or two weeks, or risk losing it. As there were active claims there circa 1878 (or 77) and Waltz had been active well before that, at least by 1868, he would have had pre-emptive rights anyway.

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper (Joe) scratch that earlier question, and let me re-phrase it so it is not putting you personally on the spot. How about if the question is put this way:

What would your friends that made good in the Pit, say 'seals' the deal, that it is the LDM, or one of Waltz's caches? I am aware that by our sources there should only be one cache remaining to be found, and if that was what they found in the Pit mine, what would you think they would say, convinces them of the direct linkage to the LDM/cache? Thanks in advance.

I hope all is well with you and yours Joe, please give Smoky an extra treat for no reason other than his distant friend in Dakota would like him to have it? Thanks in advance for that too.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Roy, what are you in the dog house for now ? Beth ?

 

[Not Peralta]

Roy, what are you in the dog house for now ? Beth ?

:hello Remember Amigo, you don't have to have a point, to have a point.NP

 

[Azquester]

Waltz would only have been claim jumping if he were on someone else's mining claim. It is not claim jumping to start mining open ground that has no claims on it. It would today not be legal, but in Waltz's day, if any sheriff or other authority had 'caught' him working on the mine, he would be given a time period to record his claim, usually ten days or two weeks, or risk losing it. As there were active claims there circa 1878 (or 77) and Waltz had been active well before that, at least by 1868, he would have had pre-emptive rights anyway.

In the eyes of the Government it's the first one to file the claim not the first working it. No wonder he shot those two military soldiers for stealing ore and showing it! Back then you sunk a shaft twenty feet or so then filed your claim. It would've been a nasty fight between Waltz and anyone that found it after he killed for it. I think Waltz was more afraid of his murderous deeds than filing a claim. He was screwed earlier by filing claims and being jumped up around Prescott so he had that to contend with. He also had his murderous act that would've got him hung. I don't know the penalty back then for killing a Mexican. Indians, you were given a medal and a reward for their scalps!

He was in deep and couldn't stop killing for it. Flash too today. We have someone threatening to kill anyone that goes near the Pit Mine. Sounds familiar? Dirty Deeds are a foot in there and someone is attempting to keep us out. If it's not the LDM why such trouble?

Treasure maybe?

A big Secret?

Oz?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

psst Roy, we get lot's of free exploritory digging---.this way.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I have provided all of the evidence my friend gave to me, and some that I have dug up from other sources. That would include the entire story of the two men who rode up to the mine prior to its being opened, as well as being told by one of them that, he is sure, that the Kochera Ore came from the Pit Mine. He was the one who took the original pictures of the ore.

My personal opinion is that the Pit Mine could be the source of the Waltz ore. In my opinion it's the best bet......to date. In support of the mine being a cache for ore from a number of mines, are the numerous differing description of Waltz's ore. Not being an expert in mining nor rocks, in general, those opinions are obviously unqualified. I have only presented the information for discussion, of which plenty has been generated.

My own, unwarranted (in my opinion) poor reputation should not detract from the information provided, much like some of the things that have been said of the Rendezvous. Those things should stand or fall on their own merits.

My belief that the Pit Mine is not the original Silver Chief is based on the evidence I have seen, not on anyone else's opinion. As I have said, not being an expert on such thing it's more than possible I am wrong about that. I haven't asked Jack about the subject, but would take his word without question. On the other hand, as always, I won't take second hand information from anyone as being factual. I question everyone, including myself.

I hope this makes my position clearer.

Trust me, Smoky gets way too many snacks and doesn't really care who suggests them. I will see if he will give you credit.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy, what are you in the dog house for now ? Beth ?

Dog house? What dog house? Our dogs live IN the house, there is no dog house. Now you have me confused!

Wouldn't the free exploratory digging be better accomplished, by phoning in a hot tip to the Federales that a lot of illicit drugs are buried at Tayopa? When they find none, you can tell them thanks it must have been wrong, and not to worry about filling in those holes!

Bill Riley wrote

In the eyes of the Government it's the first one to file the claim not the first working it. No wonder he shot those two military soldiers for stealing ore and showing it! Back then you sunk a shaft twenty feet or so then filed your claim. It would've been a nasty fight between Waltz and anyone that found it after he killed for it. I think Waltz was more afraid of his murderous deeds than filing a claim. He was screwed earlier by filing claims and being jumped up around Prescott so he had that to contend with. He also had his murderous act that would've got him hung. I don't know the penalty back then for killing a Mexican. Indians, you were given a medal and a reward for their scalps!

He was in deep and couldn't stop killing for it. Flash too today. We have someone threatening to kill anyone that goes near the Pit Mine. Sounds familiar? Dirty Deeds are a foot in there and someone is attempting to keep us out. If it's not the LDM why such trouble?

Treasure maybe?

A big Secret?

Oz?

How many men would you say Waltz murdered? What evidence do we have that Waltz killed them? Thanks in advance.


Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

I have provided all of the evidence my friend gave to me, and some that I have dug up from other sources. That would include the entire story of the two men who rode up to the mine prior to its being opened, as well as being told by one of them that, he is sure, that the Kochera Ore came from the Pit Mine. He was the one who took the original pictures of the ore.

My personal opinion is that the Pit Mine could be the source of the Waltz ore. In my opinion it's the best bet......to date. In support of the mine being a cache for ore from a number of mines, are the numerous differing description of Waltz's ore. Not being an expert in mining nor rocks, in general, those opinions are obviously unqualified. I have only presented the information for discussion, of which plenty has been generated.

My own, unwarranted (in my opinion) poor reputation should not detract from the information provided, much like some of the things that have been said of the Rendezvous. Those things should stand or fall on their own merits.

My belief that the Pit Mine is not the original Silver Chief is based on the evidence I have seen, not on anyone else's opinion. As I have said, not being an expert on such thing it's more than possible I am wrong about that. I haven't asked Jack about the subject, but would take his word without question. On the other hand, as always, I won't take second hand information from anyone as being factual. I question everyone, including myself.

I hope this makes my position clearer.

Trust me, Smoky

gets way too many snacks and doesn't really care who suggests them. I will see if he will give you credit.

Take care,

Thank you Joe for taking the time to explain, and yes I have seen and remember the posts where you provided the story and evidence. Not sure what exactly seals the case, for them? Also, Dr Glover's tests showed the Kochera ore was not a match for Dutchman ore - similar, but not a match. Does that not give you pause? Or do you think that similar is close enough?

A dog needs plenty of snacks to provide all that energy required to keep you busy! And we only have them for too short of a time, so you have good reason to "spoil" Smoky, even if he does not care who or whom has suggested the free snack.

I hope you are well Joe and feeling better every day. All is well here, a bit too warm but at least it is not forty below! (haha)
Roy

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

The problem with the "Dutchman Ore", at least for me, is that it's possible that Waltz never saw or touched the samples that are credited to his mine. It's similar to the "Hell I Was There" syndrome I have mentioned before. I imagine there was a plethora of Waltz ore produced once the story hit its stride. Pretty much like Bob's ring. He believed what he was told, which was false. Like all such ore, it's of course, possible it came from the LDM.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Roy, asa matter of fact they are using the mine drainage from one to irrigate their opium / mary crop. I have condered just how much my denying it would be effevtive to the Federales.

I agree Roy, dogies like true wives, should be spoiled.

 

[azdave35]

Roy, asa matter of fact they are using the mine drainage from one to irrigate their opium / mary crop. I have condered just how much my denying it would be effevtive to the Federales.

I agree Roy, dogies like true wives, should be spoiled.

real....did you ever try the spanish dip needle for locating iron deposits and precious metal veins?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

No AZDave, I haven't. I gave my ip needle to Oro to play with He hasn; reported back on hhis use of it.

 

[dog the treasure hunter]

Dog, did you see what he usd for a ladder ? and wirh 45 kilo loads> No wonder the attrition rate was so high in the old mines.
.



.

.[/QUOTE]

Yea thats amazing to me Real TTT, I would not want to try and climb that ladder with no load, and the best pair of Nike shoes boots, Under Armour,Rebook super duper stickum gloves,and i still couldnt make it up that ladder. I bet that dude had a grip like a pair of vise grips. You older guys sure did carry more of a load of everything in life,than what i ever could. I break down under the most simple of common task if it dosen't go right. You adult guys from the 1970's back have the true grit. We are getting weak, you cant even raise your voice to people anymore.



.[/QUOTE]