Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[EarnieP]

Abandoned and Inactive Mine Safety Training — Underground Mine Hazards
National Park Service Geologic Resources Division — August 2003
Instructor: John Burghardt - Geologist, Certified Mineral Examiner

https://www.nature.nps.gov/geology/aml/amlreports/amlsafety9102003_print.pdf

Interesting highlights from the article;

* "Cultural resource specialists are interested in abandoned mines and related artifacts that may be left underground." (Old, I think that makes you a 'Cultural Resource Specialists', CRS.)
(I'm also a CRS, 'Can't Remember S..t'.))

* "MSHA (Mine Safety and Health Administration) is the agency in the Department of Labor that regulates and periodically inspects safety in active mining operations. Their official policy is that no one, despite experience, should be allowed to enter unventilated areas deeper than 100', unless they are trained and equipped as part of a emergency mine rescue team. MSHA, however, has no regulatory authority concerning abandoned mines."

* It is the policy of the Office of Surface Mining Reclamation and Enforcement (OSMRE, or just OSM), as handed down to its state programs, to forbid entry of underground workings in excess of 25', or any deeper than is required to construct a suitable closure for each opening."
"Outside of its own programs, however, OSM has no regulatory authority over the policies of other agencies or entities concerning abandoned mines.'

* "Local state mine inspectors DO HAVE JURISDICTION concerning abandoned mines."
"In many states it is against the law to enter abandoned mines. State mine inspectors may exercise their authority over federal employees on federal land."

There is also an excellent diagram illustrating many of the mine terms that are often used on this site, for those like myself who may be unfamiliar with some of those terms.

This information is old (2003), I can not vouch for it's current accuracy.
I am NOT responsible in any way for the use of any of the information posted here!
By passing on Mr Burghardt's information I am not accusing, nor encouraging anyone of entering old abandoned mines. I discourage it! Abandoned mines are far too dangerous.
STAY OUT of Abandoned Mines!
Posting here is for entertainment purposes only, NOT to be taken as FACTUAL, ACCURATE, or LEGAL in any manner.

(Translation; Do not sue me because you are stupid, crazy, careless, lazy, ill equipped, ill prepared, untrained, inexperienced, impaired, unlucky, cursed, drunk, drugged, broken hearted, over caffeinated, and/or suicidal.) STAY OUT of Abandoned Mines!

 

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[Not Peralta]

Amigo' and Amigo-ettes,, Why not take a few minutes and talk about some of the real historians and treasure hunters,and prospectors of the supe's mnts,and area, what about the real mountain men and women prospectors,you know, the one's that never had their storie's and pictures put in books,the one's that actually lived what they would talk about,there are lots of these people that are never mentioned,they were the real story tellers of the supe's, pictures of a lot of the non mentioned and the poster of a lot of the original mnt men and women should be able to be found in the local museum,and yes I said poster of some that were considered to be mnt men and women of the supe's, I will tell you one thing that pushed a lot of them out of the area, anyone remember ( legislation through publication ).Thank you.NP

 

[Azquester]

bill..you seriously need to be careful walking around up there,,,alot of open shafts with no fences around them ...the brush is so thick you wont see them until your right on it...not a good idea to go alone up there

Note to self:

(Please add a grappling hook, climbing rope, a very long leather whip, and a parachute to my back pack / hiking portfolio

In the scheme of things, I thought I read it was only six men doing all that shaft and tunnel work during the hey day of the Silver Chief? Seems those guys were very busy on just a few tunnels and not many more. Backing filling was a messy task because of the dust. The amount of tunnel intercepting the shafts was the longest and that would be down low. Still a forty or seventy foot drop would not be fun unless you were on a bungee cord.

Note to self: (Please bring long zip line type Bungee cord in back pack and one eight foot two by four for strapping on my back

Thanks for the concern but I grew up in around caves and shafts down here, and back home. I have 20-20 vision and can lift my own weight in gold.

Don't believe me?

Send me the gold and I'll prove it!!

 

[cactusjumper]

Make of it what you like, it was posted only for anyone that is interested. I doubt that the newspaper man that wrote that article, ever set foot at the Silver Chief and probably was making his own guesses. That does not automatically make the report utterly worthless either. But the article itself does not matter in any way, it was posted for anyone interested. There are a number of others online, anyone can pull them up if they like. Side point but I have seen newspaper articles with even greater errors than those.

Old, thank you for taking the time to write up your answer. Very well done.

Joe, it appears that you may be taking things very literally when that is probably not warranted. Have to agree with Dave and Matthew that there has been a lot of activity there, it is not entirely a matter of record, there were no GPS or even good maps available until relatively recently. So what makes the Pit mine NOT the Silver Chief, or perhaps one of the other 31 named silver mines that had some work done on them in that district? Thanks in advance.

I would like to see a piece of the ore. To me, only the ore is going to settle the question in a scientific way. Will the ore match the famous matchbox ore?

Roy,

I doubt anyone will ever make public what was taken out of that mine. I don't take the distances reported as exact, nor do I discount them as being inaccurate. Others will have to make that decision.

If the Pit Mine was a cache for gold ore taken from a number of mines, I doubt any of it would be a perfect match for any of the claimed Dutchman specimens.

It's true that I try to not change the accepted meaning of words written by others and change them to fit my own interpretations, but I am open to seeing things in a different light, if a convincing argument can be made. I'm aware of the mistakes that have been made on old maps and printed material. While I don't believe I take any of it literally, I don't automatically dismiss it either.

Hope all is well with you and the family.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Bill, some of the things that I have encountered in my travels in old mines are old explosives --- which I dumped down a shaft to the water level

2,Old stoped out areas whch were bridged with - now rotten - timber -- then they used smaller branches to form a herring bone pattern across them, then filled with dirt on top of the cross layers of the smaller branches so that for all appearences you were walking on a solid dirt floor. sometimes these false platforms/ floors extended fo hundreds of feet vertically. Will have to tell you of one of my first experiences with these, which, but for a miracle I survived-- .

.3, Then there was the collar of the priinpal shaft which had a nice layer of concrete up to the actual opening, but which had been undercut from weatherring for some meters so that there was nothng between you and the shaft except for a couple of inches of very old cansrete of unknown strenth to begin with. There was no warning of this undercut until you were actually at the shaft opening itself. Talk about a puckering sensation ---. when you realized that your long trip down the shaft depended upon a thin layer of old oncrete

4. Then there was -----

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

That'l be the day when I trust you with my Gold Bill..

 

[Ponchosportal]

As I said previously ... there was nothing of value retrieved from the Pit mine during the 90s excavation/investigation. It was thought to be a cache but nothing was removed but material previously used to backfill the pit maybe from a nearby excavation. Nothing of value was found or discovered. I invite anyone to prove otherwise.

 

[azdave35]

As I said previously ... there was nothing of value retrieved from the Pit mine during the 90s excavation/investigation. It was thought to be a cache but nothing was removed but material previously used to backfill the pit maybe from a nearby excavation. Nothing of value was found or discovered. I invite anyone to prove otherwise.

do you have proof of what you posted?

 

[sdcfia]

Abandoned and Inactive Mine Safety Training – Underground Mine Hazards
National Park Service Geologic Resources Division – August 2003
Instructor: John Burghardt - Geologist, Certified Mineral Examiner

https://www.nature.nps.gov/geology/aml/amlreports/amlsafety9102003_print.pdf

Interesting highlights from the article;

* "Cultural resource specialists are interested in abandoned mines and related artifacts that may be left underground." (Old, I think that makes you a 'Cultural Resource Specialists', CRS.)
(I'm also a CRS, 'Can't Remember S..t'.))

* "MSHA (Mine Safety and Health Administration) is the agency in the Department of Labor that regulates and periodically inspects safety in active mining operations. Their official policy is that no one, despite experience, should be allowed to enter unventilated areas deeper than 100', unless they are trained and equipped as part of a emergency mine rescue team. MSHA, however, has no regulatory authority concerning abandoned mines."

* It is the policy of the Office of Surface Mining Reclamation and Enforcement (OSMRE, or just OSM), as handed down to its state programs, to forbid entry of underground workings in excess of 25', or any deeper than is required to construct a suitable closure for each opening."
"Outside of its own programs, however, OSM has no regulatory authority over the policies of other agencies or entities concerning abandoned mines.'

* "Local state mine inspectors DO HAVE JURISDICTION concerning abandoned mines."
"In many states it is against the law to enter abandoned mines. State mine inspectors may exercise their authority over federal employees on federal land."

There is also an excellent diagram illustrating many of the mine terms that are often used on this site, for those like myself who may be unfamiliar with some of those terms.

This information is old (2003), I can not vouch for it's current accuracy.
I am NOT responsible in any way for the use of any of the information posted here!
By passing on Mr Burghardt's information I am not accusing, nor encouraging anyone of entering old abandoned mines. I discourage it! Abandoned mines are far too dangerous.
STAY OUT of Abandoned Mines!
Posting here is for entertainment purposes only, NOT to be taken as FACTUAL, ACCURATE, or LEGAL in any manner.

(Translation; Do not sue me because you are stupid, crazy, careless, lazy, ill equipped, ill prepared, untrained, inexperienced, impaired, unlucky, cursed, drunk, drugged, broken hearted, over caffeinated, and/or suicidal.) STAY OUT of Abandoned Mines!

That red list above contains most of the reasons abandoned mines in the southwest were sealed beginning for the most part in the 1970s. Old mines are the ultimate attractive nuisance. People and livestock were getting killed or injured too often - mostly in falls - and the legal liabilities were becoming too much to worry about for the governments, mine owners and land owners. When the openings were closed off, the workings were permanently abandoned for the most part - that is, any ideas of reopening them or salvaging equipment out of them were forsaken.

Is there a cultural or historic loss as a result? For a very few, maybe, but I'd venture that for the vast majority of people there is total indifference. I'm personally disappointed that I failed to act in time and lost two old ore cars and an ore bucket encumbered by a ceiling collapse in the Langston Lode on Pinos Altos Mountain when its main adit was collapsed. I like that old mining gear, so I guess I'm one of the very few who suffered from the closings.

As far as Spanish or Mexican artifacts are concerned (tools, chicken ladders, hide bags, candles, etc), those old workings and their contents were either found and emptied years ago or remain somewhere yet unlocated - the recent mine closure projects being a moot point. By the way, I take exception to the archaeological report shown in Post #691 that indicates that an old mine lacking location filing papers and/or one that contains hand-cut local trees used for shoring "must predate 1860." This opinion fails to acknowledge that during the post-1860 Anglo period, 1) it was not uncommon that working mines, especially promising rich prospects, were never filed on for various reasons (usually security); and 2) many, many working mines in remote locations had little choice other than using readily available local trees for shoring timbers. Milled timbers were often too expensive and hard to obtain. Trees were free and on site.

Here's three old workings I've found. One is Spanish (late 1700s), one is Anglo (1930s) and one I'm not sure of. You'll find hand-cut timbering in all, and you'll find no location papers on any. How old are they?

 

[Old]

SDCFIA wrote....>>>I take exception to the archaeological report shown in Post #691 that indicates that an old mine lacking location filing papers and/or one that contains hand-cut local trees used for shoring "must predate 1860." This opinion fails to acknowledge that during the post-1860 Anglo period, 1) it was not uncommon that working mines, especially promising rich prospects, were never filed on for various reasons (usually security); and 2) many, many working mines in remote locations had little choice other than using readily available local trees for shoring timbers. Milled timbers were often too expensive and hard to obtain. Trees were free and on site.<<<<

Great pictures, thanks for sharing.

concerning the not filing issue discussed above.......in this case it does make some sense. In most cases, I'd agree with you. In this case there were other mines, LOTS of them in the post 1860 period. One mine would have been less than a half mile from this location. It would have been hard to hide with all the traffic in this area AT that time period. Looks like it was crawling with miners. Wouldn't have been a good idea not to file. I think that's what the archeologist is alluding too. This site WAS filed on in the time period but not as a mine site but rather as a Mill site with a water source. The arch. mentions that, I just didn't copy it all.

This location and the Pit are enigmas and don't fit any sort of logic in trying to place them as part of the known activity of the area. I know I'll get blow back from that, but hey! That's what makes it interesting.

 

[EarnieP]

...As far as Spanish or Mexican artifacts are concerned (tools, chicken ladders, hide bags, candles, etc), those old workings and their contents were either found and emptied years ago or remain somewhere yet unlocated - the recent mine closure projects being a moot point. By the way, I take exception to the archaeological report shown in Post #691 that indicates that an old mine lacking location filing papers and/or one that contains hand-cut local trees used for shoring "must predate 1860." This opinion fails to acknowledge that during the post-1860 Anglo period, 1) it was not uncommon that working mines, especially promising rich prospects, were never filed on for various reasons (usually security); and 2) many, many working mines in remote locations had little choice other than using readily available local trees for shoring timbers. Milled timbers were often too expensive and hard to obtain. Trees were free and on site.

Here's three old workings I've found. One is Spanish (late 1700s), one is Anglo (1930s) and one I'm not sure of. You'll find hand-cut timbering in all, and you'll find no location papers on any. How old are they?

View attachment 1325450

View attachment 1325451

View attachment 1325452[/QUOTE]
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Great post and pictures.

 

[sdcfia]

If you like pictures of authentic old Spanish mines and artifacts, here's another one. This photo was taken ca 1910 at Santa Rita del Cobre during the transition from high grade underground copper and gold mining to lower grade (dropped to 10% copper, ha ha) open pit recovery. An unknown sealed tunnel was unexpectedly broken into, containing the ladders, ore bags and other things. Even though official NM history still claims that the Spanish began mining Santa Rita in 1800, experts at the time dated these workings to approximately the mid 1700s. This site is approximately five miles from both the middle and bottom photos in Post #709 - one Spanish and related to Santa Rita, and the other modern. Those two sites were sealed by the State about 1985.

 

[Ponchosportal]

yes there is proof; I am completely satisfied that nothing was found. The information is available if you speak with the right individual .... who does not post here and wishes to remain anonymous.

 

[azdave35]

yes there is proof; I am completely satisfied that nothing was found. The information is available if you speak with the right individual .... who does not post here and wishes to remain anonymous.

are you talking about the pit mine or the treasure trove site by rogers trough?

 

[Ponchosportal]

are you talking about the pit mine or the treasure trove site by rogers trough?

The Pit Mine.

Further, I am unaware of any treasure found at rogers trough; I am aware of the permit and activity there.....

 

[dog the treasure hunter]

If you like pictures of authentic old Spanish mines and artifacts, here's another one. This photo was taken ca 1910 at Santa Rita del Cobre during the transition from high grade underground copper and gold mining to lower grade (dropped to 10% copper, ha ha) open pit recovery. An unknown sealed tunnel was unexpectedly broken into, containing the ladders, ore bags and other things. Even though official NM history still claims that the Spanish began mining Santa Rita in 1800, experts at the time dated these workings to approximately the mid 1700s. This site is approximately five miles from both the middle and bottom photos in Post #709 - one Spanish and related to Santa Rita, and the other modern. Those two sites were sealed by the State about 1985.

View attachment 1325539

Yea, look at that dude, put him in the octagon with anybody, turn out the lights,then see who comes out on top. My money's on him. There's the real deal.

 

[dog the treasure hunter]

Just got back from my first trip too the Pit Mine right this minute. Some photo's to follow. It was a fairly hot day but the wind helped. I thought I saw Frank Augustine leaving while driving up sure looked like him in a white jeep.

I have tons of photo's too process! It wasn't as bad a trip as I thought though! Being that I have no idea where it's at and had no clue how the trail went, or where it originally was, I thought I did quite well. The Manzanita bush and cats claw was horrible tore my arms up a bit. Trail's so over grown I was blocked at every turn! I still made it in a least a third or half the way by using an old Indian Trail trick!


I had my Privy Probe for the Dutchman Dookie!



View attachment 1324819

Bill, if i ever get lucky enough to hit it, where i can do this treasure hunting full time, id really enjoy going out treasure hunting with you. Not in the supe's, though, but some where not so well know. I Don't want to deal with people trying to snuff us out, because they think where horn'ing in on there claim. Great photos and post, i have enjoyed seeing them,and reading about your adventures.Stay safe and take care.

 

[Azquester]

As I said previously ... there was nothing of value retrieved from the Pit mine during the 90s excavation/investigation. It was thought to be a cache but nothing was removed but material previously used to backfill the pit maybe from a nearby excavation. Nothing of value was found or discovered. I invite anyone to prove otherwise.

I believe otherwise.

Why would someone go to all that trouble with a pre-paid phone death threat against Ryan? I think something more is going on here. I don't know what yet. I'll try and get to the bottom of it. If a cache was found near there that possibly could've been Dutchman and it may hold more clues. Old Spanish artifacts have also been found there. Pre 1860. So it may hold some small clues, but, whatever it holds I will not disturb any sacred grounds. If I find a piece of rich ore I'll photograph it, flag it, pick it up with calipers, map it on a GPS, and lay it back down where it was. Then I'll report it to the local authorities as a piece of possible gold ore. They'll ask for coordinates of this strange object and tell me to wait patiently by the phone because they will call me when they're done with their investigation.
I'll go back up there and verify they took the sample and it'll be gone.

And then I'll never hear from them again....

Your inviting anyone up there to prove otherwise is quite an invitation. I think I know what's happened up there. I'm not going to speculate until my investigation is complete. Like I said before it's too hot now for this to happen anytime soon.

Tramp, Trust me with your gold? The most gold I ever claimed was dredging and I gave it away to the younger club member helping me as it was the best day of his life! Gold doesn't change me. I could get Fort Knox given to me and still have the same lifestyle. My self and another almost drove into a shaft once up high in the Helvetia, AZ.

https://arizonadailyindependent.com/2014/03/16/history-of-helvetia-rosemont-mining-district-part-1/


If I ever found the Dutchman it would be open for all to see with free samples!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Dog, did you see what he usd for a ladder ? and wirh 45 kilo loads> No wonder the attrition rate was so high in the old mines.



.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Bill, that was an attempt on hunor., of course I trust you but NOT with my coffee !!


You posted --- If I ever found the Dutchman it would be open for all to see with free samples!


I have found Tayopa and that is my own feeling, the search was the fun.